Yo Dawg I heard u liek map control: Sentinel chat

[ytimk]

From my recollection of previous forums chatter, the map control provided by this bleed-less unit is a topic of concern amongst some.

This be Sentinel chat. Lets air some thoughts.

[egewithin]

De capping with Sentinal is easy. Diffucult part starts when you try to cap as IG.

[Atlas]

De capping with Sentinal is easy. Diffucult part starts when you try to cap as IG.

Also there might be a little too much ado about nothing with Sentinels. Great players make Sentinels look invincible the same way that Mathis makes melee armies look obviously superior to ranged armies. I haven't seen people crying out Sluggas op.

[egewithin]

I haven't seen people crying out Sluggas op.

I have. Remember the guy who said ASM should win vs Sluggaz. They can't so they are OP. Even there was a troll who said '' Remove Sluggaz '' Ahahahaa!..

[Cyris]

There isn't too much new to say. IMO, IG are tied for top 1v1 race with nids, and the sent is a large part of this. It gives them a great variety of plays (early aggression, ratting, take and hold, fast tech) and provides quite good map control by sprint to and decapping side points whenever not needed (like a WSE). Fun fact, it takes twice as long to cap then decap, so use this to your advantage by sucking time out of your opponents troops! Their low upkeep mixed with lack of bleed make for a large economic swing, and ML fills transitional AV needs (and stomp if against any melee). The various GM buffs over time have also left them very cheap, helping the economy further and allowing better map control then you'd think from an army with a core unit that can't cap.

While in theme IG are supposed to play primarily defensive until the "big guns" come out, the GM / sent combo allows for some of the most aggressive openers I know in ELITE. This seems strong on a faction that is also well known for being able to defend territory exceptionally well, and that arguably has the best T3's in the game.

I think some aspect of the sent / GM synergy could safely receive small nerfs and not break the faction, and make them more reasonable to play against. Some mutually exclusive examples:
Reduce GM repair bonus to 15/s (has larger impacts, but recent threads have made me think about just how strong 20hp/s repair rate is)
Increase Sent upkeep to 2.55 req/pop like most units in the game.
Reduce health by 50, increase health bonus on ground-pound by 50.
Remove Melee Resistance Aura (if the IG player lets this thing get surrounded by melee, and misses stomp, maybe it should be punished harder?)

Lastly, as mentioned by other before, Sentinel play is hard to micro properly. But once you master it, it becomes quite potent with the current IG roster.

[enasni127]

the sentinel is a curse and blessing at the same time.

pro: nice decapping power, good harrassing and kiting ability and can be repaired

con: it MUST be repaired which prevents gm from capping, sticks them to the sentinel often and makes them unable to focus-fire for the time of repairing.

cause of this map-control-repair issue i would not agree with decreasing the repair rate at all. also, the sentinel seems to work much better on some maps and in some certain mu's than in others, it's not a no brain choise imo

[Corrie]

I thought sent has reduced repair already?

[Dark Riku]

GM Repair

Repair an allied vehicle or building for 20 health per second with one Guardsman squad.
Any additional squads repairing will repair an additional 10 hp/s. Cooldown 5 seconds.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=elite/codex

[Hellstar]

The sentinal is on my list of... I'll be polite... potentially OP units. It has many of the classic hallmarks of OP units. For instance one such hallmark is that if it costs more in terms of resources, time, energy, micro, or whatever else, to combat, counter, or deal with something than it does for your enemy to employ that something, it's OP. Does the sentinel meet this standard?

It's so seemingly OP that I don't even bother trying to attack it anymore - it is a waste of DPS. Better just to direct all your firepower at stuff that can actually die. However it still sucks because the thing (or worse - things) just run around uncontested, stomping on your troops, decapping points, etc.

I never get a sentinel kill in T1. Sometimes I do in T2 or T3.

[Narcolepsy]

The sentinal is on my list of... I'll be polite... potentially OP units. It has many of the classic hallmarks of OP units. For instance one such hallmark is that if it costs more in terms of resources, time, energy, micro, or whatever else, to combat, counter, or deal with something than it does for your enemy to employ that something, it's OP. Does the sentinel meet this standard?

It's so seemingly OP that I don't even bother trying to attack it anymore - it is a waste of DPS. Better just to direct all your firepower at stuff that can actually die. However it still sucks because the thing (or worse - things) just run around uncontested, stomping on your troops, decapping points, etc.

I never get a sentinel kill in T1. Sometimes I do in T2 or T3.

Well, depends what you're hitting it with. If it's wandering around, give it a smack. If it's sitting with a bunch of GM, smack them instead. If it comes up to stomp, why are you blobbing so it can stomp you? You can take the thing down with termas or any basic infantry, and it's low enough health that if it's away from support, at all, your opponent is freaking out trying to keep the thing safe. It's not OP, it's a tool. Use the right tools for the job, ken?

[ytimk]

The sentinal is on my list of... I'll be polite... potentially OP units. It has many of the classic hallmarks of OP units. For instance one such hallmark is that if it costs more in terms of resources, time, energy, micro, or whatever else, to combat, counter, or deal with something than it does for your enemy to employ that something, it's OP. Does the sentinel meet this standard?

Not really if you consider the fact that the player must micro the Sentinel, babysit it, take units away to repair it, and/or take of field or away from enemy range when low health. Plus both upgrades are reasonably priced. Plus DoW2 vehicle pathing for the extra micro tax on it.

[Codex]

I've said this before in the past (like maybe on Relicnews, multiple times) but I'll say it again: the return from sentinels vary hugely, largely dependent on player skill (and a bit of pathing luck).

Best case scenario for sentinel:

Never bleeds, decaps entire map, supports gen bash push, gets to T2, gets missile launcher to counter infantry blobs/ become a walker hunter, still doesn't bleed, ez win.

Worst case scenario for sentinel:

Takes too much damage in initial engagements, eats up serious repair time from 2 GM (reducing GM activity and capping), can't cap, decaps a few points and takes damage from doing so, more repairs, paths on a shitty bit of cover that makes it unable to escape after stomp, dies in T1, gets replaced, dies again, ez loss.

To a casual observer it might be hard to believe that they're both situations describe the impact of the same unit. But that's the nature of the unit: the more micro and attention one is able to give to the Sentinel, the better impact it will have. And hell, stomp was native on Sentinels back in the day, so this effect was even more pronounced. Sentinels being crap at lower levels, and God tier at top levels.

Bear in mind: balance can be relative. Sentinels are stronger at higher level than lower level, even now. That isn't a contradiction (even if that seems strange).

[Hellstar]

Not really if you consider the fact that the player must micro the Sentinel, babysit it, take units away to repair it, and/or take of field or away from enemy range when low health.

I get that. The question is, even taking all of that into account, whether it is OP or not. If it is putting an unfair burden on the other player in terms of damage taken, micro that must be performed, opportunity lost, map control lost, dps wasted, resources/time/energy sunk into combating the thing, etc. then perhaps it is.

Or perhaps it isn't. Even if it is OP, is it "acceptably OP?" For instance, is the guard UP in some other area, and is an OP sentinel therefore justified? Or does the other player get some kind of compensation for the guard getting an OP sentinel? I don't know the answer to the first question. As to the second question, I'd guess "no" but I would listen to arguments to the contrary.

In defense of the sentinel, one hallmark of OPness that it doesn't seem to bear is that it doesn't seem to be spammed. The most I ever seem to see on the field at any one time is two. Most OP units are spammed if it is possible to spam them (if they are accessible enough). The sentinel seems accessible enough - it is T1 and costs only requisition. Two possible explanations for why it isn't spammed is 1) it isn't OP after all, or 2) it is OP because of synergy with something else - for example guard repair, where spamming too many would mean not enough guardsmen to keep them all repaired.

[Lichtbringer]

Well, depends what you're hitting it with. If it's wandering around, give it a smack. If it's sitting with a bunch of GM, smack them instead. If it comes up to stomp, why are you blobbing so it can stomp you? You can take the thing down with termas or any basic infantry, and it's low enough health that if it's away from support, at all, your opponent is freaking out trying to keep the thing safe. It's not OP, it's a tool. Use the right tools for the job, ken?

Are you sure Guardians win a shootout against a Sentinel? Even without stomp?`(Sorry for a bit Offtopic)

[Narcolepsy]

Sorry, perhaps I should qualify that with *if you have multiple units and they all focus fire on the mother*

[An'grathul]

Ah, the sentinel, elusively striding the battlefield and always back for more...

I have an immense love/hate relationship with this guard walker, I absolutely hate playing against it, but I also love the design and its impact (stomp pun intended). As has been argued before, its arguably one of the best T1 units in the game in terms of best-case-scenario, but I really like how that is intrinsically linked to how well its controlled.
Now I don't play IG, I'm always on the receiving end of this thing, so it has caused me grief beyond belief at times - but it's definately IG, it's rather unique and it's effective if used well, those are hallmarks of a good unit to me. Perhaps it could stand to receive a tiny tweak, but I really don't have the expertise recquired to speak out on that.

Hobble on, you blastedly annoying metal bipod.

[SirSid]

I've said this before in the past (like maybe on Relicnews, multiple times) but I'll say it again: the return from sentinels vary hugely, largely dependent on player skill (and a bit of pathing luck).

Best case scenario for sentinel:

Never bleeds, decaps entire map, supports gen bash push, gets to T2, gets missile launcher to counter infantry blobs/ become a walker hunter, still doesn't bleed, ez win.

Worst case scenario for sentinel:

Takes too much damage in initial engagements, eats up serious repair time from 2 GM (reducing GM activity and capping), can't cap, decaps a few points and takes damage from doing so, more repairs, paths on a shitty bit of cover that makes it unable to escape after stomp, dies in T1, gets replaced, dies again, ez loss.

To a casual observer it might be hard to believe that they're both situations describe the impact of the same unit. But that's the nature of the unit: the more micro and attention one is able to give to the Sentinel, the better impact it will have. And hell, stomp was native on Sentinels back in the day, so this effect was even more pronounced. Sentinels being crap at lower levels, and God tier at top levels.

Bear in mind: balance can be relative. Sentinels are stronger at higher level than lower level, even now. That isn't a contradiction (even if that seems strange).

Yha i really agree with this .

IG have always been a sore spot for me . My worst match up to fight and worst to play. The sentinel is a big reason hear , also the "hit or miss" asspect of it really pisses me off , a anti-fun unit to me big time ( well the whole IG race is anti-fun units to me )