Dealing with Grey Knights as Imperial Guard

[welshy]

Hey,

I usually find a way of winning after I lose many games against the same guy+race but I can't figure out how to beat the GK's in a lane as the IG (Inquisitor), some help here would be epic!

I do well in Tier 1 as I can out micro my opposition (who btw isn't as experienced or knowledgeable as me), I build 1 Sent, 1 Cats and 1 Hvy Wep team.
The idea here is to use my Inq to stun the BC if it comes close, then I outshoot and disrupt anything that causes me grief. No problem as the number of units is low and manageable.

Tier 2 is where things go down hill. I feel I am just getting out shot by grenade launcher ST and Psycannon SS all the time. His FC then gets teleport to tie up my Hvy Wep team. I dare not bring a vehicle out as those Psycannons rip apart the low health of a Chimera or a Sentinel. Ogryns seems really under powered and they just get shredded before doing anything productive. Cats can't disrupt the BC and I never seem to have the pure DPS + range that is needed to take down anything.

In simple terms I need to know a Weakness of the GK that I can exploit as an IG player (Inq), knowing that mobility isn't really an option as I don't want to abandon my lane.

In my experience jump troops, disruption and suppression on demand is the way to go, but these are hard to come by as an IG player (except disruption).

Is it me or does a GK player need to micro his army less compared to an IG player, they need to use less abilities to get the job done?


Also on a side note. HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH GK TERMY/PALAS who can RETREAT?! I am a bit sour on this front as my whole army was put against these guys in close quarter fighting, only to lose like 10 troops and he just retreats out when he is low, then they come out in the next engagement. What does a man do against that?

Lots to say so sorry!

[Crewfinity]

As Inq, holy brazier is a really good tool for area denial and hurting all the squishy LI squads the GK player has. spotters are also good vs mass psycannons, use them in conjunction with plasma guardsmen for some bleed on the strike squads.

plasma guardsmen, leman russ executioner, and plasma kasrkin are all really good vs terminators. as Inq you can also do assail into manticore strikes to really put the hurt on. they cant retreat very often anymore, so you have time to bleed them with plasma damage.

[welshy]

Would you use that composition to be offensive, or is that only a defensive build?

I have trouble trying to dislodge them due to being out shot etc.

[Crewfinity]

Would you use that composition to be offensive, or is that only a defensive build?

I have trouble trying to dislodge them due to being out shot etc.

catachans are definitely better for pushing. if you use the catachans grenade launcher to start a push, move in with a heavy weapons team, and then use brazier, you should be able to gain ground and hold it. try to grab cover and lay down suppression while either the catachans or inquisitor do crowd control and you should have the edge in engagements. not to mention the sentinel should always be poking and setting up pushes on isolated units.

spotters are good in that they let you be more offensive by shutting down the enemy ranged output while your main army runs for desirable positions. the smoke shell gives you lots of space to move in and prep for an engagement. the mortar shell is another good source of knockback and sets up sentinel stomps or lets you bleed IST/op models. And i really cant emphasize the holy brazier enough, its an almost constant source of damage and debuffs to the enemy army and gives you a good weapon for engaging a strike squad, which is what the inq should be going for.

However in T2 if he starts spamming psycannons i would consider getting spotters to help counter the ranged blob even if you didnt buy them in T1.

[Corrie]

INQ is amazing in this match-up if your wining T1 then i wont mention it,

In T2 you cant really throw an IG player out their lane without a double, first purchase in T2 would be a chimera and upgrade your guardsmen, sit your chimera back if hes using physcannons he wont be able to walk through your army to kill it even if he sits and fires at your guardsman this is what you want, they reinforce 3 at a time for very low costs and when you give them plasmas they should be hurting the GK player also upgrade to an autocannon, at this point you are just adapting to what he throws out,

Dealing with the BC teleport is a nightmare for anyone bar the Inq, just stun him step back kite him and force him down even if he is swinging at your GM it will barely cost you anything cause IG. I use to love this matchup as INQ it just felt so easy with the ability to completely stun the BC.

For dealing with paladins and termies there is no good way, you kinda just need to win before they start spamming them at later stages of the game but inq has some things to deal with them .. well .. make them run away for a while, As crewfinity mentioned Assail plus minticore or her armor that stuns everything, Cant remember the name I've just woke up, plasma GM that are leveled are actually really decent along with a leman, don't make the mistake of going karaskins they are awful now.

[woolypeanut]

So my mate and I 1v1 each other all the time, he plays grey knights frequently myself guard.
Now up until recently it's been pretty evenly matched however he's caught up to my hours in DoW and now I simply cannot beat him when he plays GK.

Tier 1 is fine as I've heard, apparently tier 1 guard vs grey knights is perfectly doable and this seems to be the case.

Tier 2 is when it gets sticky, I don't know GK upgrades but strike squads are my biggest problem. They can go for either the flame thrower or psycannon upgrade, both of which seem to make them immediately able to outshoot fully upgraded plasma guardsmen. I tried using the chimera however psy cannons once again shit on me. Manticore works well for shutting down his ranged craziness he'll just immediately charge me when the flare comes down, same thing happens when I invest in the arty spotters.
I took a heavy wep team but the plas dreadnought/teleport pack on the BC shuts it down immediately.

So, what am I supposed to do? Psy cannons really feel like a no brainer as he can suddenly outshoot a completely shooting focused force with ease. If that somehow fails, pretty much every unit in the army will just charge straight into combat and that's the fight lost.
Honestly, psycannons seem pretty op, of course I don't balance the game or know specifics but a single upgrade that allows the unit to deal with anything in the game, not to mention it has zero (or extremely short) set up time makes me wonder about why this upgrade is so accessible...

Late game I'll go for a Leman Russ (Kasrkin seem to perform pretty poorly) but he'll just go interceptors with psycannons and they just do horrible amounts of damage to everything and shoot the shit out of the Russ killing it very fast. Even without the interceptors, the psycannons from the rest of his army generally seem to be enough to force my Russ out of fights.

I have no idea what to do, GK seem to be able to outshoot me half the time and if they fail there they just charge. Psycannons really are the main issue, they're simply so plentiful and have no real weakness that I can take advantage of. For reference, I typically play the Lord Commissar.

[Dark Riku]

In this example, you should just keep your chimera behind your gm, the gm will shoot up the strike squad.
The strike squad does not have the range to go after your chimera and if they do head forward your plasma gm should make short work of them.
Especially with some LC buffs

The powersword also tends to do well versus HI races.

[Cyris]

What riku said. Even a Psy-purg squad can't out-shoot plasma GM's within a Chimera's reinforce aura. You will lose req to renfenforce, but you will win the fight. That and there isn't really any way to punish cautious transport play as GK with the lack of snare. The amount of AV investment needed to hunt a chimera will mean your infantry forces will have free reign.

Plasma Dread is strong, but it's a 510/150 investment. A las-dev plus ML sent will do just fine, or a melta-storm if you are in the mood. When the BC ports in, walk the las back (or into the chimera) while you shoot him. If you panic retreat it, you'll have a problem. Make sure that the BC is going in alone if he teleports (ie, make sure your GM gun line zones the SS / purg back).

Remember, GK have only the VA for long range AV and no snare, so keep the Chimera above 200 health and you are in no risk (assuming you keep it in safe positions). GK win this by picking fights carefully and using disruption to beat the GM's superior ranged trading potential, so watch out for those big initiate moments. Let the GK take some ground, then turn and fight when they spread out or buffs wear off.

For commander specific, INQ shuts down BC hard come T2 with stun + assail, so your HWT are safe to do whatever. Power sword is OP and execute makes las-dev murder dreads. Sniper rifle and med-kits for the LG imo.

[Atlas]

Feels like IG threads have been sprouting up like weeds these days

I'd also like to add that as Inq you should seriously consider a Banewolf, even if it comes much later than you would have hoped for. Not only does it passively slow whatever it attacks, but it's ability is absolutely amazing in stalling the GK army while you can then focus fire the Teleporting Bro-Cap off the field.

[Crewfinity]

On the other side of things, I've been finding that multiple grenade launcher IST squads with a rhino is an amazing composition against the guard firing line. las rhino helps so much with threatening IG vehicles with its high speed.


Really I find that the strike squad loses a lot of its effectiveness in tanking ranged damage come T2, plasma guardsmen squads put out too much plasma damage and IG strategy is built around delaying and controlling the enemy in a battle of attrition, and SS models are terrible to reinforce, as are purgations. catachans and spotters both deny a lot of enemy ranged firepower, allowing you to focus down the big threats and then worry about the rest of the army.

[Codex]

Threads merged.

[Foma]

LC feels pretty good, but if you can somehow manage to have a blob of guardsmen with lord general (not squad size increase) you can get fragile 300/25 6 pop squads with great anti-heavy infantry damage. Sniper rifle gear skill gives 30% range to your guardsmen, so you can blob your guards and outrange them. No cheap reinforce but lower upkeep and higher firepower. Its about having a blob, like 5 squads, outrange and kill. 5 squads of guards will spread out more so AoE doesnt do as much damage 5 * plasma upgrades will do 123.6 plasma dps (185 vs heavy infantry, +41.4 from lasguns) total anti-heavy infantry 226,4 dps.

Try not to upgrade the general with comissar, or he will run into melee range (comissar pistol 22 range)
IST gren launchers are a bit of a problem... smaller squads slightly spread around the gen should do fine. Focus fire
...
That rhino thing, it seems it uses green cover to full effect, as it requires sometimes much more firepower than with vehicle armor. (unlike sentinel)

[enasni127]

I've tried everything people mentioned here and even more and I think it's all more or less depending on luck or the gk doing absolutely wrong.

Really guys, try to play double Sentinel! Most GK's play grenade launchers on T1 or at least some Storm Troopers and Operatives, which can be countered well by Sentinels with GM support. Imo the usual counter to double Sentinels would be some setup teams - GK don't have any.

The good double Sentinel pressure on T1 usually allows me to pay for a good T2 army early and improves my chances vs GK alot.

[Tex]

Ops rape sentinels and guardsmen alike.

I haven't been playing Inq lately, so I can't say for sure, but I have been playing LC and gm sent gm cata cata has been working quite well for me. I use the barrage to separate the charging BC from his army and I focus him down quickly with catachan DPS. Ops are neutralized quite nicely by catachans, and their back capping bullshit is kept in check quite nicely with IEDs. Use the sent to disrupt the BC as many times as possible before its inevitable demise.

In T2 your first purchase (with this build) has to be a HWT or Ogryns. Rely on your GM's to fight Marines. Rely on your catachans to spot and deter the ops, as well as counter initiate against the charging/teleporting bro cap, and use your T2 purchase to force an upgrade or purchase shift from your opponent.
In the case of the HWT, get the bubble and autocannon upgrades. Your opponent will 99% of the time purchase the teleporter and halberd (if he already hasn't lol) and you will already have a 2x kill team waiting for his ass. Also, try to shoot and then move with your catachans so that you quickly position yourself into the BC's retreat path. Throw a smoke grenade on yourself (as soon as you become exposed to enemy fire) and put on the hurt as the BC is forced to retreat through your power melee shotgun strikes!
In the case of Ogryns, you again will likely provoke your opponent to purchase the halberd, and also plasma on his IST's. This is wonderful news for two reasons. First, the presence of your ogryns has taken money away from potential dreadnaughts, and second, now you can chose to dominate the periphery of a battlefield with your ogryns while your opponents core army is less effective against your core army! How strategic!

Now, I play LC, so I have the luxury of quickly retreating a unit that the BC teleports onto, and then bringing it back into the fight in a better position with 2x damage. I also have the wonderful aura of devotion that allows my ogryns and catachans to have insane staying power.

As the Inq, I envision supporting this build with any of her wargears other than the servo skull. You simply wont need it due to having 2x catachans. You can turn her into a brawler in T1 with the rosarius and holy brazier, causing the opponent to deal with focusing down a tank, or you can go with the crossbow to prevent the BC from ever landing a melee strike. You can get the excrutiators for supreme infantry control come T2. Something I also really like is the interrogators armor. Use this on catachans to get them into deadly striking positions!
The interrogators armor is an amazing carry over into T2 as well for either purchase option because it allows for ambushing vehicles with your HWT, or allows ogryns to get into combat before even taking a shot.
Personally, I would use the crossbow in T1 and play my game from ranged. No sense flying headlong into a GK army with my "wanna be" tank hero. In T2 I would love to get ogryns and follow that up with interrogators armor. Now my ogryns are terrors on the battlefield and I have the ability to keep a halberd BC out of melee with the crossbow. You can knockback an entire army with 2x catachans, and the ogryns can get into combat with 0hp lost. You can control the BC with your inq crossbow (along with HoTW of course) and upgraded plasma guardsmen are amazing vs HI stuff

Hope this helps

[egewithin]

As to my experiance;

Guardsmen : 2 of them combined with Sentinal in not the most cleverest thing ever. As said on the top, Ops can tear the Sentinal down so in that case, going for 3 Guardsmen should pay off. You can guard them with Cats later on. This build however leads to double grenade launchers which can easyly force you off the field. Just try to tie p in melee there guys or focus fire as fast as you can.

Sentinal : There is only 1 melee threat in T1 and it is the BC it self. Just shoot it down insted of having a stun, I mean don't go for Sentinal. It will die too fast in T2 eather.

HWT : Very effective. No direct way to counter in T1. Yes, IST grenades can be done but still can be dealt with. If he gpes for double Strike Squad, this squad is a go-to unit. Also, real good counter against BC with all GM fire support. It is a good way to counter possible Dread in T2 eather.

Cats : Perfect for pushing as said on the top. In case of a Ops spawm, they are a go-to unit. Psycannons in T2 however can bring you a big weight of reinforcement but it is worth it.

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Ogryns : Perfect unit in case of a Plasma Dread. But they will die in T3 Terminators. Still very good against all other ranged squads of GK since there is no way to stop them apart from Purgation.

Storm Troopers : I don't see a reason to buy them apart from loosing a GM or dealing with a Dread.

Chimera : As said on the top, painful vs GK.

Manticore : Acceptible in case of a ranged spawm.

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T3 depends on you.

I generally push real good with my T1 build ; 3 GM, HWT and Lord General with damage decrease armor. Pays off in T2 eather.