Eldar t1

[Corrie]

one of the big changes to eldar that noone seems to have mentioned much due to all the GK issues are the dire avengers

First of all, thoughts on buying the exarch in t1? I feel eldar have one of the most expensive tier 1 at the moment and i'm not sure if to buy these or not due to their ability still being t2 although the damage resistance is nice,

Also rangers most recent change makes them 45 power when upgraded, 5 less than ASM, currently feels a bit steep

Basically say a 1.1.1.1 build for eldar currently costs 125 power, includes fully upgraded Dires, rangers with pathfinder, Guardians and banshees with upgrade this is with no hero war-gear which in comparison to other races your spending more maybe with the exception of orks,

The issue is I feel pretty much all of these upgrades and units apart from the Dire exarch are needed in T1 in certain matchups where as my opponent can get away with more of a light t1 e.g vs chaos they can go double tics 1 aspiring champ, csm and raptors for 60 power or so then they can get whatever they like for the current situation and still spend less, I'm not saying this is a balance issue it's more of a how can I use this to an advantage or perhaps shorten my build against certain matchups, Im still quite new to eldar and coming from a 0 power tier 1 of IG i'm having trouble keeping up in tech.

[Cyris]

Kindda hit the nail on the head with the last line. Going from IG to any other race is going to be an uphill climb, and Eldar are classically the hardest race in dow to play. You need to rely on commando raides, very carefully picking fights and investing deeply in a relatively small number of fragile but potent squads.

DA are quite strong now fwiw. The extra starting health on top of their tac squad dps is a great boost. I've been doing 3x DA lately, 2 with Warlocks as my fire team and 1 with aspect as my support. Back it up with usualy a shuri for T2 AV. I'm far from a Eldar expert though, so hopefully you can get some other tips.

The biggest hurdle is going to be not thinking like an IG player. You are a precious few of the remaining Eldar, skilled but vulnerable. Every life must be preserved, every battle must be decisive and brutal. You can't just march men at the enemy machine guns until they run out of ammo

[Dark Riku]

Eldar can get away with, unit purchase, node, gen, gen.
No other race (can) do that in the meta.
Keep that in mind.

So what that rangers cost 45 power then?
Example: sniper+infiltration scouts cost 40 power. Can they cloak an army? Nope. Do they have a shotgunblast across the map? Nope.
Do they detect? Nope. (unless you spend another 25 power on them and they will still not see or detect as far.)

[Corrie]

Thanks for the replies, I think I may be forcing too many fights in t1 and bleeding too much,

When choosing fights as eldar and playing defensive against a race like IG doesn't this allow them to go 0 power t1 fast tech a drop a banewolf on your farm?

I had a game va bbbos where he went light t1 I took his gen farm and capped it and had most of the map but was still able to drop a banewolf on my farm and retook the map brining the game back even perhaps my push was too late,

Also are Rangers still a viable thing vs IG these days I know I used to be against them quite often before but now I only see double setups?

[DandyFrontline]

SM t1: scout + serg + shotgun + HST + ASM = 120 energy
IG t1: Sentinel stomp + HST + Catachans + Demomen + AS = 125 energy
Orks t1: burnas + nob + big shoota + lootas + stormboyz + painboy = 165 energy
Chaos t1: heretics AC + eternal war + HST + raptors + noise marines = 110 energy

[Cyris]

Thanks for the replies, I think I may be forcing too many fights in t1 and bleeding too much,

This is a big one with eldar, though it is a generaly good note. Try to understand your race, and the opposing race, and know when fights are in your favor or not. Then, don't fight if they aren't! Great example, SM against IG at the first fight. Your tac and scouts are just gonna lsoe HP to repairing sents, so don't do it! Wait till the 2nd tac or a dev shows up, then force a fight. On the flip side, as the IG player try to force fights early, and see what the SM is fielding. Once you know, avoid fights while you make army changes, then pick a fight once you think you have the advantage again. Rinse, repeat!

PS: Read this - viewtopic.php?f=11&t=718
Everyone should read it. It's dense, but it's filled with awesome.

When choosing fights as eldar and playing defensive against a race like IG doesn't this allow them to go 0 power t1 fast tech a drop a banewolf on your farm?

I had a game va bbbos where he went light t1 I took his gen farm and capped it and had most of the map but was still able to drop a banewolf on my farm and retook the map brining the game back even perhaps my push was too late,

Hard to say without specific replays. While IG have very power light T1 if they want too, it is also req heavy. Try to work this to your advantage! Use power intensive, req cheep units to fight (which is kind of Eldars MO). That said, banewolf to gen-farm rushes are one of the things in 1v1 I think are OP and still need nerfs, but that doesn't help you dealing with it If you against Inq, expect it and prepare: When they going T2 (good game sense is needed here) make sure you have vision around your genfarm to make sure there isn't an army around. Absolutely have a Shuri ready to be upgraded and build something that has AV immediately in T2 (Fire Dragons, Falchon, WG). Don't push past the midpoint of the map, and keep your army in a more defensive positioning. DO NOT PICK A FIGHT - (unless it is guaranteed to be a rout, natch) Stay frosty, wait and see what happens! Remember the IG don't like pushing into your defensive line any more then you like pushing his.

[Cyris]

SM t1: scout + serg + shotgun + HST + ASM = 120 energy
IG t1: Sentinel stomp + HST + Catachans + Demomen + AS = 125 energy
Orks t1: burnas + nob + big shoota + lootas + stormboyz + painboy = 165 energy
Chaos t1: heretics AC + eternal war + HST + raptors + noise marines = 110 energy

What a wonderful example of a power heavy IG T1 build. Now, if you want to go power light, I'd recommend:
3 GM, 2 Sent, 1 HWT - You won't need stomp unless they so crazy heavy melee. Can easily squeeze in a commander wargear or maybe a flamer if there is a bash situation or lots of light infantry.
3 GM, 1 Sent, 1 HWT, 1 Cata or AS - Still only 60 power and more then capable of beating a heavy T1 from other races, and will have enough pushing to bash if they went light T1.

Sentinel stomp is usually not necessary if you pickup HWT and/or have enough las-guns shooting at once.

1v1, natch.

[Bahamut]

What a wonderful example of a power heavy IG T1 build. Now, if you want to go power light, I'd recommend:
3 GM, 2 Sent, 1 HWT - You won't need stomp unless they so crazy heavy melee. Can easily squeeze in a commander wargear or maybe a flamer if there is a bash situation or lots of light infantry.
3 GM, 1 Sent, 1 HWT, 1 Cata or AS - Still only 60 power and more then capable of beating a heavy T1 from other races, and will have enough pushing to bash if they went light T1.

Sentinel stomp is usually not necessary if you pickup HWT and/or have enough las-guns shooting at once.

1v1, natch.

3 GM 2 sents and 1 HWT is 1390 req + 60 power. Not counting hero wargear or anything

[Cyris]

Yeah totaly, it is a lot of req, but it's power light, can match other T1 heavy builds and gets 3 capping units out in seconds (since you should wait on sarge upgrades for as LONG as possible). By contrast, the examples used were all about as req heavy but used much more power. Observe!

SM t1: scout + serg + shotgun + HST + ASM = 120 energy
Assuming 1 tac and 2 scout: 1510

IG t1: Sentinel stomp + HST + Catachans + Demomen + AS = 125 energy
Assuming 2 GM + sarge: 1485

Orks t1: burnas + nob + big shoota + lootas + stormboyz + painboy = 165 energy
Assuming 2 shootas: 1535

Chaos t1: heretics AC + eternal war + HST + raptors + noise marines = 110 energy
Assuming 2 tic, 1 csm: 1660

VS:
IG: 3 GM, 2 Sent, 1 HWT
Assuming 2 sarge and no stomp: 1415/30
Add a flamer and a power sword (overkill imo): 1590/65

Actually, it turns out to be lower in req AND power. And you really shouldn't need the Pound unless things go quite badly, and the 3rd sarge you can usualy skimp on (since the 3rd GM is usualy for capping and repair only). And the upkeep is super low, since GM and sent both have below average upkeep per pop. (1.7 / pop for sent, 1.9 / pop for GM, compared to 2.55 / pop for nearly every other unit in the game.)

[DandyFrontline]

Well, i know lot's of IG builds as it's my main faction. I though we were talking about 1.1.1.1 build in terms of power cost. As Eldar you can go for a light t1 as well

[Lichtbringer]

one of the big changes to eldar that noone seems to have mentioned much due to all the GK issues are the dire avengers

First of all, thoughts on buying the exarch in t1? I feel eldar have one of the most expensive tier 1 at the moment and i'm not sure if to buy these or not due to their ability still being t2 although the damage resistance is nice,

Also rangers most recent change makes them 45 power when upgraded, 5 less than ASM, currently feels a bit steep

Basically say a 1.1.1.1 build for eldar currently costs 125 power, includes fully upgraded Dires, rangers with pathfinder, Guardians and banshees with upgrade this is with no hero war-gear which in comparison to other races your spending more maybe with the exception of orks,

The issue is I feel pretty much all of these upgrades and units apart from the Dire exarch are needed in T1 in certain matchups where as my opponent can get away with more of a light t1 e.g vs chaos they can go double tics 1 aspiring champ, csm and raptors for 60 power or so then they can get whatever they like for the current situation and still spend less, I'm not saying this is a balance issue it's more of a how can I use this to an advantage or perhaps shorten my build against certain matchups, Im still quite new to eldar and coming from a 0 power tier 1 of IG i'm having trouble keeping up in tech.

Not only the ability (embolden) is in T2, but also the passive damage reduction.
Rangers against IG... I don't know, they don't even oneshot a guardsmen. Feels dissapointing. They do OK damage against Sentinels, but nothing that couldn't be repaired away. Still they are kinda nice for that. The kineticpulse on the other hand is very nice, especially if you play Warlock for Immolator. In general, the Kineticblast into Nade is really good (especially against those annoying Catachans). They are also nice for the big detector radius, I would get them against the Inq so that you don't have invisible Ogrins on your setupteams.
On the other hand, Direavenger exarchs have detection now...


Btw, someone mentioned Eldar going 1 purchase Gen node node. But I think we saw in the last 1v1 MRT with Holyhammer that it only pays off if the enemy doesn't push your power before the first Shuriken comes out. Which he can do.

[Tex]

hue hue hue hue hue hue

[Forestradio]

hue hue hue hue hue hue

https://youtu.be/jj1x913cGUE?t=18m14s

[Corrie]

What? buying exarchs in t1 gives no damage reduction?

Yeah I was going to question those early gens, although what could hammer have done to stop that push even getting more dires would get battered by a good Knob, slugga, shoota push. Tex? Fancy letting us know how to counter your build just in time for the MRT

[Asmon]

Just play SM to counter Tex

[enasni127]

Yeah totaly, it is a lot of req, but it's power light, can match other T1 heavy builds and gets 3 capping units out in seconds (since you should wait on sarge upgrades for as LONG as possible). By contrast, the examples used were all about as req heavy but used much more power. Observe!

SM t1: scout + serg + shotgun + HST + ASM = 120 energy
Assuming 1 tac and 2 scout: 1510

IG t1: Sentinel stomp + HST + Catachans + Demomen + AS = 125 energy
Assuming 2 GM + sarge: 1485

Orks t1: burnas + nob + big shoota + lootas + stormboyz + painboy = 165 energy
Assuming 2 shootas: 1535

Chaos t1: heretics AC + eternal war + HST + raptors + noise marines = 110 energy
Assuming 2 tic, 1 csm: 1660

VS:
IG: 3 GM, 2 Sent, 1 HWT
Assuming 2 sarge and no stomp: 1415/30
Add a flamer and a power sword (overkill imo): 1590/65

Actually, it turns out to be lower in req AND power. And you really shouldn't need the Pound unless things go quite badly, and the 3rd sarge you can usualy skimp on (since the 3rd GM is usualy for capping and repair only). And the upkeep is super low, since GM and sent both have below average upkeep per pop. (1.7 / pop for sent, 1.9 / pop for GM, compared to 2.55 / pop for nearly every other unit in the game.)

let's just imagine that even IG players need req to build up gen farms - wouldn't that high req equal less generators(less power) then?!?!!! this 60power blablabla sounds good but actually you won't be able to produce much more

[Dark Riku]

let's just imagine that even IG players need req to build up gen farms - wouldn't that high req equal less generators(less power) then?!?!!! this 60power blablabla sounds good but actually you won't be able to produce much more

No it does not imply that at all.
It depends on how many power points you actually own on the map and when you called down your gens. Not to mention possible power bashes, etc.

[enasni127]

let's just imagine that even IG players need req to build up gen farms - wouldn't that high req equal less generators(less power) then?!?!!! this 60power blablabla sounds good but actually you won't be able to produce much more

No it does not imply that at all.
It depends on how many power points you actually own on the map and when you called down your gens. Not to mention possible power bashes, etc.

...so this build works only if you are ahead anyway or are so much more skilled than your enemy that you dominate the map from the beginning?

in dow 2 elite mode 2.4.2 a power node costs 125 req and a generator costs 100. both players have the chance to cap power points or bash power, so this can be "cut out" of the formula, i think. the remaining point is spent req on t1 for troops AND generators and the sum of it should be about equal to your opponents investment on same skill, situation, balanced factions and so on... ofcourse it can be meaningless if you are ten times better than your opponent and dominate him anyway, or if you find a way to build an army which is absolutely superior to his. in both cases it's a matter of different skill level and bad game balance but doesn't change the basic rules/ressource system of this game

is there any post of you on this forum which is not somethink like "I DISAGREE !!!"?

[enasni127]

let's just imagine that even IG players need req to build up gen farms - wouldn't that high req equal less generators(less power) then?!?!!! this 60power blablabla sounds good but actually you won't be able to produce much more

No it does not imply that at all.
It depends on how many power points you actually own on the map and when you called down your gens. Not to mention possible power bashes, etc.

...so this build works only if you are ahead anyway or are so much more skilled than your enemy that you dominate the map from the beginning?

in dow 2 elite mode 2.4.2 a power node costs 125 req and a generator costs 100. both players have the chance to cap power points or bash power, so this can be "cut out" of the formula, i think. the remaining point is spent req on t1 for troops AND generators and the sum of it should be about equal to your opponents investment on same skill, situation, balanced factions and so on... ofcourse it can be meaningless if you are ten times better than your opponent and dominate him anyway, or if you find a way to build an army which is absolutely superior to his. in both cases it's a matter of different skill level and bad game balance but doesn't change the basic rules/ressource system of this game

[Dark Riku]

...so this build works only if you are ahead anyway or are so much more skilled than your enemy that you dominate the map from the beginning?

No it doesn't mean that at all.

If player A drop his gens in minute 1 and player B drop his gens in minute 7 there will be a big difference in power income.
You don't have to dominate the map either to prioritise (de-)capping the power points on the map instead of the req points.
How is this hard to understand?

is there any post of you on this forum which is not somethink like "I DISAGREE !!!"?

You're really testing my patience. It's almost impossible to agree with the dumb things you post.
So yeah, you perceive me disagreeing because you only see it from your own small world.

[Cyris]

let's just imagine that even IG players need req to build up gen farms - wouldn't that high req equal less generators(less power) then?!?!!! this 60power blablabla sounds good but actually you won't be able to produce much more

I completely don't understand you here. Node + Gen price is flat across all factions, so it gets added to all 4 builds equally, as well as the power light IG builds I mentioned. The IG power light is still middle of the pack for req cost, so adding a flat cost to all won't change this at all.

But really, I know you are getting in an emotional fight with Riku, but I honestly don't understand what you mean here! I'd love to hear you elaborate. My point all along has been only this: IG is the faction most capable of fielding a heavy T1 army that is power light, allowing them to fast tech. This is not a claim of "OP MUST NERF". given a set of races, one must be the best at doing power light T1, and it's IG.

[enasni127]

...so this build works only if you are ahead anyway or are so much more skilled than your enemy that you dominate the map from the beginning?

No it doesn't mean that at all.

If player A drop his gens in minute 1 and player B drop his gens in minute 7 there will be a big difference in power income.
You don't have to dominate the map either to prioritise (de-)capping the power points on the map instead of the req points.
How is this hard to understand?

is there any post of you on this forum which is not somethink like "I DISAGREE !!!"?

You're really testing my patience. It's almost impossible to agree with the dumb things you post.
So yeah, you perceive me disagreeing because you only see it from your own small world.

it's not about a small world or some stuff it's about basic maths skills. and ig player who shows up with multiple gm squads + double sentinel just doesn't have ANY energy to drop the ridiculous amount of THREE generators in minute ONE of the game.

[enasni127]

let's just imagine that even IG players need req to build up gen farms - wouldn't that high req equal less generators(less power) then?!?!!! this 60power blablabla sounds good but actually you won't be able to produce much more

I completely don't understand you here. Node + Gen price is flat across all factions, so it gets added to all 4 builds equally, as well as the power light IG builds I mentioned. The IG power light is still middle of the pack for req cost, so adding a flat cost to all won't change this at all.

But really, I know you are getting in an emotional fight with Riku, but I honestly don't understand what you mean here! I'd love to hear you elaborate. My point all along has been only this: IG is the faction most capable of fielding a heavy T1 army that is power light, allowing them to fast tech. This is not a claim of "OP MUST NERF". given a set of races, one must be the best at doing power light T1, and it's IG.

i didn't understand it as an "op call" and it is no emotional situtation for me, it's all about facts. i just think an guardsmen heavy double sentinel build needs to be fielded very early to make a big impact and that means you'll place your gens later than your opponent to ensure you have the right cash flow for your build in early game. IF you don't manage to play that out well on the map (gen bashes for example) and your opponent spends his "delta requisition compared to yours" in generators, then you will just not benefit from that lower power build at all.

in very simple words:

if you produce 59 power for 10 minutes and spend 90 power on your troops (maybe 1 wargear, setup team and jump unit) you'll have 500 power in total

if you have 59 power for 7minutes and spend 50 power on your troops (twice stomp + power sword i.e) you'll 363 power in total.

conclusion: this low power / high req build as a significant weakness if you can't totally bash your opponents power income in early game. you'll for sure get behind in tech and won't be able to do anything usefull in early t2 in the worst case scenario. and that's all i try to show here: low power builds are no free win or in general a big advantage.

free win would only be to choose LA in a tournament and decide your matches on the loading screen.

[enasni127]

let's just imagine that even IG players need req to build up gen farms - wouldn't that high req equal less generators(less power) then?!?!!! this 60power blablabla sounds good but actually you won't be able to produce much more

I completely don't understand you here. Node + Gen price is flat across all factions, so it gets added to all 4 builds equally, as well as the power light IG builds I mentioned. The IG power light is still middle of the pack for req cost, so adding a flat cost to all won't change this at all.

But really, I know you are getting in an emotional fight with Riku, but I honestly don't understand what you mean here! I'd love to hear you elaborate. My point all along has been only this: IG is the faction most capable of fielding a heavy T1 army that is power light, allowing them to fast tech. This is not a claim of "OP MUST NERF". given a set of races, one must be the best at doing power light T1, and it's IG.

i didn't understand it as an "op call" and it is no emotional situtation for me, it's all about facts. i just think an guardsmen heavy double sentinel build needs to be fielded very early to make a big impact and that means you'll place your gens later than your opponent to ensure you have the right cash flow for your build in early game. IF you don't manage to play that out well on the map (gen bashes for example) and your opponent spends his "delta requisition compared to yours" in generators, then you will just not benefit from that lower power build at all.

in very simple words:

if you produce 59 power for 10 minutes and spend 90 power on your troops (maybe 1 wargear, setup team and jump unit) you'll have 500 power in total

if you have 59 power for 7minutes and spend 50 power on your troops (twice stomp + power sword i.e) you'll 363 power in total.

conclusion: this low power / high req build has a significant weakness if you can't totally bash your opponents power income in early game. you'll for sure get behind in tech and won't be able to do anything useful in early t2 in the worst case scenario. and that's all i try to show here: low power builds are no free win or in general a big advantage but sometimes the exact opposite.

free win would only be to choose LA in a tournament and decide your matches on the loading screen.

[Dark Riku]

If your enemy drops 3 gens versus the 2 sent etc build you are giving as an example, it's basically GG right there.
There is no way the enemy can stop you from gen bashing then as he has almost no units on the field.

You have to see the full picture.

[Adeptus Noobus]

There is no way the enemy can stop you from gen bashing then as he has almost no units on the field.

That is the most important sentence in this discussion. You obviously need to turn your high unit-count/late gen BO into a lot of early pressure or the benefits of that BO will simply dissipate. If you have dropped 3 gens that means you have just spent 300 req. Now let`s play this through as an SM player. By the time the IG player has fielded 2 Sentinels and 3 GM, I should have at least double Scouts and one Tac squad going for me. Now that I have built 3 gens I can neither go for ASMs or Devastators. The IG player can now bring down the full weight of his army on me and there is jackshit I can do about it. I would have to defend the power farm with my double Scouts and one Tac squad for 1 minute at least to be able to get the req for a Dev. squad then wait for them to be fielded and then wait until it reached my powerfarm to properly help me defend my power. By that time I will have bled Scout models left and right and actually fall behind. You have just wasted 300 req + the requisition needed to reinforce all the lost models while losing the map and thus the game because you answered a heavy T1 with a try to fast-tech to T2 against a faction that does require little to no power in T1.

[Swift]

I think this should be more like "Sentinels in tier one" at the moment looking at the discussion.

The strength of a high req low power build for IG is the aggression two Sentinels provide you with, that with no bleed and low upkeep and fast repairs makes fighting you an absolute nightmare. You should win the first engagement and then can bash his new gens instantly. The Sentinels can decap and having you hero go around solo capping means very little can stop you from gaining all the map in the first five minutes.

[enasni127]

If your enemy drops 3 gens versus the 2 sent etc build you are giving as an example, it's basically GG right there.
There is no way the enemy can stop you from gen bashing then as he has almost no units on the field.

You have to see the full picture.

....you can't even remember your own words, right?!

This drop in the first minute was YOUR EXAMPLE, LOOK!

If player A drop his gens in minute 1 and player B drop his gens in minute 7 there will be a big difference in power income.

Don't tell me i'm wrong when I use your example - it's your build, not mine.

@ Adeptus Noobus, I know it's a matter of making pressure early on and that's exactly what I said/wrote before and why I think(and wrote in my last post) that it's so important to get the no-energy ig build out as early as possible and this exactly leads to a delay in power income.

[Dark Riku]

No, I'm perfectly fine in the remembering department. You however make me think you actually are very special.
Let me try to explain it to you, yet again. That was me trying to explain some basic economy to you with an easy to understand example.
Where do you get the delusion from that this is a build of mine? °_O

Sense, you make none.

[Torpid]

No, I'm perfectly fine in the remembering department. You however make me think you actually are very special.
Let me try to explain it to you, yet again. That was me trying to explain some basic economy to you with an easy to understand example.
Where do you get the delusion from that this is a build of mine? °_O

Sense, you make none.

The reason you hate theory-crafting Riku is because you can't do it.

Sure, if I drop 9 gens early on I will have more power income than my foe. Right? That's a tautology is it not?