Space Marine Topic

[Nuclear Arbitor]

if one missile always landed at the targeted location the whirlwind would have some certainty to it. the rest can go wherever.

[Codex]

Re: Arbituh

The idea is you can combo some kind of crowd control with the Axe to make him really hard to deal with, whether that be a 2nd dev (park TM between the 2 devs, saw Tyger do this once), a shotgun blast or simply bionics.

Once you have that crowd control they're not getting away from the TM in a hurry without retreating.

[Major Richard Sharpe]

I don't see how adding extra armour as an upgrade would improve the Whirlwind's utility. Explain your reasoning perhaps?

Well... at the moment, especially in 1V1 the whirlwind is not really helpful as an artillery disruption unit (poor accuracy, especially against non-massed forces). It might conceivably end up being used more as a anti tank vehicle (soft counter i suppose) than as an artillery unit. Therefore, while the hunter killer is already getting reduced cooldown, the unit might become more popular if increased survivabilty also became available.

[Orkfaeller]

My best experiences with Whirlwinds I think are actually cases where I could make use of their AT Missles.

The Range on those things is HUGE. Any once you clicked on your target its going to hit, even if the WW has to turn around first suuuper slowly and you already lost sight of your target in the fog, missle is still going to hit.

Great to finish off heavily damaged machines that slip away.

[Lulgrim]

Larraman's blessing is currently way too strong at 125 red.

You get +21 zeal for losing hero so the actual cost is more like 100.

Also a bug relating to larraman's: if you use it while apo is being sync killed he will revive in the field and not at base (I doubt there's much you can do about it tho).

A simple delay might do it.

[Lulgrim]

(from what I understand, either he has a charge attack for all weapons or none at all due to how the game is coded, right?)

No.

[Codex]

What? The Apothecary has a melee charge and loses it if he gets the bolter. In fact he gets an improved melee charge if he gets the sanguine chainsword.

[Arbit]

It sounds like he's saying I was wrong. And if that's the case, why doesn't the TM get a charge attack with the axe? The tooltip says he should.

[Codex]

Oh I was agreeing with Lulgrim. I posted that in a confusing manner as I had forgotten to reply to the melee charge thing earlier.

I think he should get a melee charge. Don't see why he shouldn't. At the same time, he definitely still has utility with the axe even without the melee charge.

[Asmon]

You get +21 zeal for losing hero so the actual cost is more like 100.

+30 or +23 if you kill your own hero.

[Black Relic]

I noticed the Techmarine not charging in the elite mod when watching Indrids game and when i played a few myself. I suggest a simple alter. Since i found out that elite use Cope Toll then doing this would be easy sense i did it in my mod. Change the 'melee' tab on the ebps of the Techmarine to match the Apothocary, PC, Kommando Nob and Warp Spider heros. Where all of them in their melee tab says the they would have a melee charge. Have the charge on the Techmarine start at like 8 or 9. Not sure if the designers have done this yet but it something I noticed when I was putting an axe on my Techmarine. Although I would add modifiers on set charge range to 12, he would not charge until his model said so through the ebps. Just a suggestion though.

And in the from the same source i was watching Indrid cast and he said the the kraken bolts will be getting some love. Well i am glad to hear it caz i said on the old forum about being iffy on both Vanguard and Sternguard since they dont seem to pay off unless its vs squishy targets, but even then they hardly get any exp from it since guardians are 60 which is (i think) the highest exp a squishy unit can give you other than scouts which is 120 per unit. 6 scout kills can level a tacs squad to about 3/4 of the way to level 2. I might be mistaken though.

Any way I think that Sternguards Kraken bolts should be a plasma munition. The Dps being 20 or 23. about the same as Tactical Marines bolters. This way it would be a lot similar to how kraken bolts ability work on Tactical Marines when they fight CSM. I did the math and at 23 dps. each units would be doing about 29.9 dps to heavy infantry. Since that seems alot to even me and i main FC, lower the fire fate to maybe 1.2 or 1.15 for this to work.

Just some thoughts though.

[Arbit]

What? The Apothecary has a melee charge and loses it if he gets the bolter. In fact he gets an improved melee charge if he gets the sanguine chainsword.

The apo still has his charge with the bolter, btw. I just tried it out a few nights ago.

Tooltips do say the TM should have a charge attack with the axe. Is this a bug then?

[Nurland]

Vanguard pays of better agains heavy infantry due to power melee (30% extra dmg against HI/SHI and full damage to commanders).

Plasma dmg is 1,5 against heavy inf. so 23dps plasma per model would be 34,5 dps per model against HI/SHI (tcsm do something like 27 dps per model against HI and 22 against SHI). Even if you tone down the dps plasma dmg would make them insanely good against SHI. They would be better than plasma gun tacts and as plasma gun is supposed to be the anti HI/SHI upgrade to tacts, I don't see this a viable option. (Plasma gun tacts do 70 dps (the entire squad with sarge) against HI and 55 against SHI)

And as far as i know, tactical marine bolters do 14,58 dps.

[Ace of Swords]

Vanguard pays of better agains heavy infantry due to power melee (30% extra dmg against HI/SHI and full damage to commanders).

Plasma dmg is 1,5 against heavy inf. so 23dps plasma per model would be 34,5 dps per model against HI/SHI (tcsm do something like 27 dps per model against HI and 22 against SHI). Even if you tone down the dps plasma dmg would make them insanely good against SHI. They would be better than plasma gun tacts and as plasma gun is supposed to be the anti HI/SHI upgrade to tacts, I don't see this a viable option. (Plasma gun tacts do 70 dps (the entire squad with sarge) against HI and 55 against SHI)

And as far as i know, tactical marine bolters do 14,58 dps.

Vanguard pays of better agains heavy infantry due to power melee (30% extra dmg against HI/SHI and full damage to commanders).

Barely worth when you lose the meltas, goodluck taking down a pred or any tank/transport without them.

[Toilailee]

Losing levels in T3 hurts more than losing meltas tbh. Losing meltas can be concidered a trade off but if your asms are level 3 or 4 they will be about the same dps as level 1 vanguards, and they have conciderably more hp.

My suggestion would be to buff level 1 vanguard hp. Or possibly give them all around buffs and remove leveling? There simply is no reason to ever get vanguard and revert you asm levels, unless you buy new asms in T3.

[Nurland]

Ace: I was commenting on wa1243agh's opinion of vanguard paying off only against squishy units. Not whether or not it is a good purchase in T3.
Though I do think that losing melta for that extra melee efficiency is fine. Losing the levels on the other hand... Well I pretty much agree with Toil on that part.

[Orkfaeller]

So, here's an idea:

do you think one could argue to buff the Techmarine's repair speed when equiped with the Poweraxe?

Its something I got a bit frusttrated with in the last couple of days as I lost quite a bit of stuff because the Techmarines inability to both melee and repair at the same time ( even if both targets would be in range ).

A classic ranged TM ( Bolter, Plasma or Melta ) can combat repair a vehicle or structure while still shooting the enemy.

A melee TM is stuck in an position where he either has to decide he wants to engage the enemy and risk loosing his stuff because he cant repair it or repair it while just standing next to the enemy like a statue.

So, what Im trying to say is: Combat Repairs are not really an option most of the time for Power Axed TMs so I wonder if a boost to his repair speed could be justifiable to let him fix his stuff between battles faster, or give him a reason why he should stay out of combat completly to repair.

[Torpid]

I actually don't mind that idea. It's true what you say, the combination of the TMs shooty power while simultaneously being able to repair assault cannon dreads/preds is uh-may-zing and he can't do that with the axe. It's a fair suggestion, it's not like the axe is anything like OP considering how good the TMs guns are and how well he just synergises with his own wargears and army in ranged.

[Arbit]

That or giving him a minor regen aura that applies only to vehicles would be pretty cool. He could fight side by side with a ven dread and repair it at the same time.

[Codex]

I don't like this idea, for multiple reasons.

1. It would probably too strong on something like a melee dreadnought, since you could combine it with Blessing of the Omnissiah in a fight.
2. I assume it would stack with standard repair, giving him a significant repair rate advantage.

These two factors mean that it's probably not worth damaging techmarine vehicles at all in a fight, preferring to snipe off units if possible.

3. Part of the aspect of repair and its necessity is that it takes up a units' time and doesn't allow it to multitask, for example the HWT for IG can no longer repair while setup and hence they have to choose between combat duty and repair. It's a big change to allow TM to heal not one but two or three vehicles while he's simply capping a point. That would be a big, if not huge boon for TM, if after a scrap he has multiple vehicles which need repairs. F2, TM aura and scout repair to top it off. Just seems inconsistent with the ideas of DOW2 to me.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

unless you want to buy an acessory for repair in a small aoe and only repair in a small aoe, keep it away. i could see an accessory for it but not as a bonus. an increased repair rate would be much more palatable.

[Arbit]

When I suggested the regen aura I was thinking on the order of 5 hp/sec (standard repair is 10 hp/sec) to a radius of 7 or so. My thinking was, if a ranged TM can still fight while repairing a AC dread, why shouldn't a melee TM get to do something similar with a melee dread at a decreased repair rate?

As to whether it would be too powerful with blessing of the omnissiah, I really doubt an extra 5 hp/sec is going to push it over the top and blessing is pretty pricey at 200 red or so.

I know it's a bit out of line with how repairing is done but it's the abilities that break the mold that are exciting and he wouldn't exactly be a mobile repair bunker.

[Orkfaeller]

Well, I think just a small boost to his repair speed would be far easier to implement and less risky to srew up the entire balance^^

[Major Richard Sharpe]

Does the plasma gun weapon option on the tactical squad seem slightly marginalised because recently the kraken bolts got quite a significant buff?

[Lulgrim]

Tac Kraken Bolts have never been touched in Elite.

[Torpid]

Does the plasma gun weapon option on the tactical squad seem slightly marginalised because recently the kraken bolts got quite a significant buff?

You're referring to the sternguard ammo type kraken bolts, not the active on the tactical marines right? Well, sternguard are sternguard, I'm pretty sure the plasma gun still does more damage to HI/SHI than stern with KBs do. Ultimately the tac upgrades do more damage to the unit they counter, whereas sternguard can do good damage to all infantry types (notably infantry), but at the end of the day strerns cost a lot of power and you lose your tacs levels so unless the tac weapons get a large nerf I don't thinkit will ever be a no-brainer to get sterns.

[Magus Magi]

Hello all! With the new update to ELITE coming out, I'd like to take a moment and voice some minor balance concerns I have about some of the units being looked at for this update.

Take this with a grain of salt: I'm a little concerned with the balancing of Sternguard/Vanguard.

As of now, if I want to get a Sternguard squad I need to pay a combined total of 625 Req and 55 Power. I am limited to a single Sternguard squad, and if I choose to upgrade an experienced tactical squad, I lose all levels and XP. This update Sternguard Kraken rounds have been improved against Heavy and Super Heavy inf, while vengeance rounds have been slightly nerfed against those infantry types. However, Vengeance rounds still have a significantly lower range and higher reload time (which I think was originally meant to balance their power against those infantry types).

If I want to get a Vanguard squad I need to wait until tier 3, and pay a combined total of 650 req and 105 power ( a WHOPPING 730 req and 135 power with the power fist upgrade). I am limited to a single Vanguard squad, and if I choose to upgrade an experienced assault marine squad, I lose all levels and XP.

A terminator squad costs 650 req and 100 power (not including zeal OR upgrades). Provided I wait for the cooldown to finish, I am permitted to deep strike in as many terminators as I can afford.

I do not mean to push this comparison too far, but I do want to ask your thoughts on whether, considering their cost, the xp loss, and the limit on available squads, sternguard and vanguard are where they should be. Humbly, I'd like to suggest eliminating the xp reset element of vanguard and sternguard, as well as the lower rate of fire or range on vengeance rounds.


On a very different note, I want to say that I really like the changes to the Whirlwind's hunter-killer missile. However, I still question whether or not the 300 req and 70 power expenditure on a whirlwind is worth it considering it's inability to provide accurate fire support. Somebody on these forums suggested improving the accuracy of the whirlwind so that one missile always hits the intended target, and I want to voice my approval of that idea.

Someone also suggested giving the Librarian an ability which buffs the accuracy (which really translates into damage) of another squad. I would also like to voice support for that idea, which I think will greatly increase the number of games in which librarians are used by increasing their synergy with other space marine units.

Thank you all for bearing with me. As always, I appreciate your patience with my thoughts and suggestions.

[Magus Magi]

I do apologize for the length of that last post. I just wanted to get everything out there.

[Orkfaeller]

I never really saw a problem with "loosing your existing level".

If you Squad is allready lets say level 3, they allready seemed to perform well enough.

I allways see Sternguard ( cant say much to Vanguard since I dont deploy ASM as a TM player ) as a way to get a reliable little unit at a point in a game when unleveled Tacs are not going to cut it anymore.

Like if you really need additional capping/standing power later on, or you lost your original Tactical Marine Squad, you build a fresh, additional TacSquad just to upgrade it.

Or if your first Tacs were unable to level up during the early game to give them a better chance to stand up against the leveled enemy units.

[Torpid]

The vengeance rounds have reduced ROF and range because they are anti-vehicle, they are not meant to be used vs infantry. you use dragonfire bolts vs stuff in cover/buildings, hellfire vs infantry/commanders, kraken vs heavy/super heavy infantry. At the same time though vengeance rounds shouldn't be buffed as then they would be too good at AV, ultimately sternguards can fulfill all ranged unit roles, however they aren't as good at doing so as a specialised tactical marine squad is.

The squads are incredibly powerful atm and that is why they have such a high cost. They also prevent your sergeant from dying which is a massive boon to them. In 3v3 especially (since you have an abundance of power there, or at least, power is less valuable) they can be really effective, bleeding your foe throughout the entire match without hindering yourself. When not in 3v3 I feel they are best bought only if you haven't leveled your other squads past 2 already and if they aren't already upgraded.