Grey Knight vs SM Matchup

[egewithin]

Also, multiple Phobos is just unfairly amounts of AV.

again, you could probably counter it with the same resources in AV yourself.

Yeah, call me back if it ever works.

BACK TO TOPIC THAN...

I used to have a topic where I wanted multi-meltas for Terminators with some explained reasons so I am not really intrested in to write them down here again. If we ignore Tex used 2 multi-melta Dreadnouhghts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX6CsG3RROs to counter a lot of GK stuff and still lost them to psycannons while chasing into base because these are different things to discuss, there are no hard counters from APO against GK late game where Terminators coming into play. Oh I am gonig to explaing again it seems.

VS CSM Terminators : If they have autocannon or sticking with stormbolters, Vanguard Vetrans are a counter for them since their health is not too high and have slightly more dps with their power melee efect, with a heal support, they can be forced off. In case of claws, kite away and shoot them down with anti-armor weapons. Or get a Dreadnought, it is more than enough to deal with them. Sometimes I force melee with my Terminators supported with Combat Stimulants and heals, it works.

VS SM Terminators : For normal Terminators a melee Dreadnought or even a multi-melta Dread is a counter. You can out shoot them with 2 plasma guns eather. Predator works real good eather. Vanguards and all other anti-armor weapons combination is the best hard counter for them.

In case of Assault Terminators, only solution is the biggest focus fire of all time, Dread stun, Dread damage, Vanguard power melee as long as they are not face to face of course , plasma guns are enough to force off. They will not risk to stay too much in combat since there is a possiblity of falling back chase and wipe out.

VS GK Terminators : Well, here is the ugly part. Normal GK Termies can shut down my plasma Tacs with Holocaust ability, they will tear apart my Vanguards with even only their splash damage, Dread can handle them 1 on 1 but if we add the incoming psycannon fires on him, a retreat is necessery sometimes and we all know how it ends. Same story for Predator eather.

About Paladins; I don't have a problem with their health bar. But even melee resistaned Dread dies in their hand, how am I going to counter them? Kite away and fire whice chasing is out of options because of psycannons.

Lastly, they do not care the dangers of other Terminator variants since they can easly retreat. So much harder to deal with.

[Foma]

Also, multiple Phobos is just unfairly amounts of AV.

again, you could probably counter it with the same resources in AV yourself.

Yeah, call me back if it ever works.

BACK TO TOPIC THAN...

coh 2 worked this way for 2 years and it worked except the factions were few and allies were/are always paying more for performance. There were no hardcaps and now they introduced them. It didnt fix balance. It made it worse, since 1 faction can have multiple superheavies (KT) and others cant.(like IS-2 and Tiger) However, they are still counterable. In other words the hardcaps didnt fix anything. Only super-long range and high damage units deserved something, but even without limit they werent I win button. What destroyed countering were multiple axis offmaps that were used to wiping out AT guns. Allied AT guns were weak and axis armor super-performing so this is where it got out of hand. And AT infantry blobs. In 4v4 this week I encountered an 8-squad Panzerschreck volksgrenadier blob. Cheap hard to kill and heavy AT ... axis AT abundance and better tanks, allies comparable infantry, worse AT and worse tanks at slightly lower price.

VP ticking is slow (30m -1 hour) and all axis player needs is camp, store fuel and build numerous overperforming undoctrinal fast heavy tanks that kill armor effectively and face little non-vehicle born AT. One of more AT-capable but not cost-effective was IS-2 and relic nerfed it to 1 at a time. So these Panthers can just stomp you in the end, your AT cost-effectively. They said they care about unit preservation yet infantry squads bunch together that any tank can 1-shot a squad in certain circumstances.

in other words hardcaps are only for something that is quite imba. And since solution isnt found how to balance it, lets cap. DoW 2 superunits were designed to be imba for cost because that limit to 1 was to provide an edge in performance, or were simply imba and thrown in.

For example imba with gk is that their basic infantry has an upgrade that gives them a weapon of 16,59 dps explosive. Marine with missile launcher 17,81 explosive dps. One hits infantry, the other doesnt. Better basic dps, 14,58 for SM and 16,33 for SS. If that isnt enough, the squad leader is given 16 dps plasma gun not to lag behind (plasma does 150% vs heavy infantry armor) while this is lower than 30.88 plasma gun upgrade of TSM, this squad gains both a rocket launcher through psycannon, which does full dps unlike bolters, to any infantry, and sarge has also anti-heavy infantry weapon.

Be it heavy infantry or vehicle, SS always does good. TSM for example does well only through krakens for a time, or plasma gun. Vs vehicles, it is ML or nothing. SS does both.

[Indrid]

The missile launcher is way better AV than a single Psycannon. DPS isn't everything.

[Crewfinity]

The missile launcher is way better AV than a single Psycannon. DPS isn't everything.

QFT

Especially with AV weapons, high burst damage (ex beam lootas) is key for finishing them off. Strike squad psycannon is a good anti-all weapon, but does not excel at taking out weakened vehicles like the tactics missile launcher can, since it cannot fire on the move and is sustained dps instead of burst. The justicar having plasma damage is nice but it's not a huge value, tacs definitely overshadow strike squad at either anti-vehicle and anti-heavy infantry once they get their T2 upgrades, while strike squad can cover both roles less effectively. Strike squad really is the most generalized of the three basic HI squads (tacs, csm, ss), which necessitates their better support abilities and role.

[Cyris]

SS losing psy-cannon upgrade in favor of a ML would be a buff to GK. It would grant more meaningful transitional AV (something they sorely lack). SS would overall prolly be weaker (by becoming more niche) but their compositional role would be well defined. There are a lotta things about GK that are arguably OP, but T2 SS are not one of them. T1 SS on the other hand...

[Bahamut]

The missile launcher is way better AV than a single Psycannon. DPS isn't everything.

This is true, but that was not the point of Foma's post. Foma's point was that tacs can only be good against one thing at a time while SS have an AV weapon and an anti-(S)HI weapon at the same time while also being better in melee

Tho i understand SS performance is quite better than tacs i wouldnt say SS vs tac performance is an indicator of balance between the 2 squads. both races have different buff options and optimal scenarios, GK lacks setup teams and vehicle snares in t1/t2 for example, a dev squad and a tac squad can beat 2 SS squads or vice-versa, depending on who has the favorable conditions

[Adeptus Noobus]

[...]GK lacks setup teams and vehicle snares in t1/t2 for example, a dev squad and a tac squad can beat 2 SS squads or vice-versa, depending on who has the favorable conditions

May I introduce you to the unsuppressable Purgation Squad (when they have Psycannons)? http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... tion_squad
Though I admit, they have no real snare for vehicles before T3. But so what? Get a Libby with Shrouding put that and Mindblades on your Psy-Purgation and let it rip. Add the Vindicare for extra nice AV dmg. The Libby often gets overlooked by GK players. His support abilities come in very handy. After all, ability synergies is what GK are all about.

EDIT: On a sidenote - Can ASM jump into the sanctuary? I have not purchased them for a long time vs GK, so I kinda forgot. If the answer is yes, would it not make more sense to make the area unaccessable to jump units?