Dark Reaper discussion station

[ytimk]

The Codex currently says the DR do 'inferno_pvp' damage - check the stats for it and it says:

Dmg vs:
LI - 1
HI - 1.25
SHI - 1

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype. ... nferno_pvp

Unless this is not updated this means DR do not do extra damage vs SHI eg termis, Ava, GUO, Tyrant Guard,Ogryns.

Just something to think about. Melting HI armour is great, but when some of these big SHI ones hit the field hmmmm

[Lichtbringer]

The Codex currently says the DR do 'inferno_pvp' damage - check the stats for it and it says:

Dmg vs:
LI - 1
HI - 1.25
SHI - 1

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype. ... nferno_pvp

Unless this is not updated this means DR do not do extra damage vs SHI eg termis, Ava, GUO, Tyrant Guard,Ogryns.

Just something to think about. Melting HI armour is great, but when some of these big SHI ones hit the field hmmmm

Well, if you take piercing damage as the baseline which does only 30% damage to SHI then Inferno does 3 times as much damage as "normal".

[Deflaktor]

Now that I think about it, Lichtbringers suggestion makes much more sense than mine. Fire on the move shouldnt be a too big buff on such squishy units but would certainly help against artillery.

Well, if you take piercing damage as the baseline which does only 30% damage to SHI then Inferno does 3 times as much damage as "normal".

Inferno also does only 0.75 against commander armor, while piercing does 0.9. Should be worth mentioning as I use warp spiders mainly as commander killers if my opponent is not orks or ig. Dark Reapers are not nearly as effective in forcing commanders to retreat. Just as a side note though, not that it matters that much.

[saltychipmunk]

they tend to be that kind of unit that does better the less you invest in them. (i am actually seeing this alot more than i thought i would with these kinds of ranged specialist units).


the exarch is indeed a joke. especially since he really does nothing to mitigate the major weakness of dark reapers (model losses) you lose just as many models with him as you do without him.

their damage in general is fine. it is enough to be scary to heavy infantry especially when you buff them or something. but they are far too brittle in most cases as they will instantly take model losses once anything that isn't Perice damage starts to look at them funny.

[destructomat]

how do they perform, compared to other eldar ranged units, as support fire against infantry blobs?

[destructomat]

Their description would indicate a T2 supporting fire squadron; if they need a buff, why not give them the same range as (or better range than) T1 suppression squads (49)?

[egewithin]

I realized something. Apart from Tempest, they do not need a buff, even is it not clear that Tempest needs a rework or anything. They have good dps and good range. They have no problem I think.

[Deflaktor]

What made you come to this realization? Can you maybe support your statement a little bit more?

[Tex]

Considering I don't ever buy dark reapers as a generalist shooty squad, and I never need to counter light infantry with them, I wonder if it makes sense to change their damage type back to plasma? This way they at least get full bonuses against the armor types that you would be purchasing them to counter anyway.

I'm so on the fence with these guys right now. I used a dark reaper blob yesterday and all it accomplished was bleeding horribly whilst only managing to force off HI squads without inflicting losses. If I had built fire dragons I would have won the game handily.

[Bahamut]

maybe because firedragons might be OP? who knows..

[Sub_Zero]

I do think they are (fire dragons) OP. Dark reapers could use some adjustments here and there but I am not certain what theses adjustments will be.

[egewithin]

Neither Fire Dragons nor Dark Reapers are OP. Only Fire Dragons might became a problem in case of multiple of them but you can still counter them with some unextreame ways.

[Sub_Zero]

1070 health squad that has -30% incoming damage (equivalent to heavy armor) but receives no bonus damage from plasma AND resists fire damage
6.5 movepseed and fire on the move, allowing near immunity to melee and solid chase
High resistance to crowd control - immunity to knockdowns and 200 courage
84 melta dps, which is both anti all and anti-garrison
An ability that increases damage by around 40% and grants 100% fotm

I know that everybody perceives statistical data differently but according to my book that is blatantly overpowered given their cost of 445/45.


This is how underused apo's nades were buffed. It took a long time to make them less OP after a decision was made to buff them. Nobody really used fire dragons, but now I see them in almost any game against Eldar. And I bet eventually they will lose something. They must have more things tied to abilities. They aren't Chaos, Eldar must use abilities to stay effective.

[Deflaktor]

I agree, the fire dragons chasing ability might as well be as good as that of banshees. Had yesterday a game where I used two squads of fire dragons and chased a half hp tac squad down and wiped it by using fleet of foot global. No idea how to fix that without crippling their AV abilities though.

[hiveminion]

A good place to start would be to remove the (in my opinion completely unnecessary) passive knock back resistance.

[SinisterLaugh]

Considering FDs, good idea would be to move some benefits from their passive abiity to the active one.
It strikes me as very odd, that FDs have their ability available from the start without the need of aspect upgrade (and it's actually strange that they are the only aspect warriors without an aspect upgrade). I guess we need a new topic on FDs

[PhatE]

Getting multiple Dark Reapers for 1's is a waste of money and has very little payoff compared to getting something like a falcon as a followup purchase instead. You're putting yourself at a disadvantage by getting two unless its fighting terminators and you aren't going to be going to T3. It's a very hefty investment with both upgrades being 25 power. At any given time you might find yourself fighting something armoured so it's better not to get two of them and get a different unit entirely. I'd say either reduce the exarch or pinning fire upgrade by 5 power if there were to be something done. The Eldar economy simply can't afford two Dark Reapers and the bleed they incur.

The damage type before was ridonk and wrecked so many faces it's not funny. Perhaps Tex got plasma and inferno mixed up with the previous damage type. Codex consultants to confirm

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Or a new weapon type, specific for Dark Reapers.

[Deflaktor]

Getting multiple Dark Reapers for 1's is a waste of money and has very little payoff compared to getting something like a falcon as a followup purchase instead. You're putting yourself at a disadvantage by getting two unless its fighting terminators and you aren't going to be going to T3.

Tested two dark reapers against termies in a winning game for the lulz. They didnt put a dent on said termies.
To be fair, the dark reapers were unsupported but I still expect them to be a threat to terminators.

[saltychipmunk]

1070 health squad that has -30% incoming damage (equivalent to heavy armor) but receives no bonus damage from plasma AND resists fire damage
6.5 movepseed and fire on the move, allowing near immunity to melee and solid chase
High resistance to crowd control - immunity to knockdowns and 200 courage
84 melta dps, which is both anti all and anti-garrison
An ability that increases damage by around 40% and grants 100% fotm

I know that everybody perceives statistical data differently but according to my book that is blatantly overpowered given their cost of 445/45.


This is how underused apo's nades were buffed. It took a long time to make them less OP after a decision was made to buff them. Nobody really used fire dragons, but now I see them in almost any game against Eldar. And I bet eventually they will lose something. They must have more things tied to abilities. They aren't Chaos, Eldar must use abilities to stay effective.

We should also consider that fire dragons are technically a shotgun style unit , ie shorter ranged than most units. while 1000 hp is nice , it is not nearly enough to save them from taking instant model losses from any form of consolidated ranged effort , even with the 30% damage reduction.

dark reapers wont put a dent in anything that has a major hp pool. dark reaper strength is their ability to largely ignore armor with their damage which makes them a threat against transitioning t1 and t2 heavy infantry units and units like flash gits with low hp pools.


things like nobs and terminators which are veritable bullet sponges wont really be phased by dark reapers but then again i dont think that is necessarily a bad thing , eldar as a race has many other more effective methods int t3 to deal with terminators and nobs.

[ytimk]

Getting multiple Dark Reapers for 1's is a waste of money and has very little payoff compared to getting something like a falcon as a followup purchase instead. You're putting yourself at a disadvantage by getting two unless its fighting terminators and you aren't going to be going to T3.

Tested two dark reapers against termies in a winning game for the lulz. They didnt put a dent on said termies.
To be fair, the dark reapers were unsupported but I still expect them to be a threat to terminators.

Check the codex - they get a bonus against HI but not SHI aka termies due to their specific weapon type. At the moment it looks like they need to be kited against termies to make use of their range, but termies ranged weapons will shred them.

[PhatE]

I'm happy to be proven wrong when it comes to things like this but I do remember post patch when the damage type was changed I had success with two DR's and the rest of my army. Straight up fights with terminators they aren't so great I suppose but with the extra stuff next to them they do pretty well in my experience. 1 vs 1's aren't Elite Mod fight club or whatever it's called with 1 vs 1 unit fights and such.

[destructomat]

At the moment it looks like they need to be kited against termies to make use of their range, but termies ranged weapons will shred them.

In the codex, "fire while moving" is set to 'no'. Kiting would be much less efficient from stationary firing.

[ytimk]

At the moment it looks like they need to be kited against termies to make use of their range, but termies ranged weapons will shred them.

In the codex, "fire while moving" is set to 'no'. Kiting would be much less efficient from stationary firing.

Ooh good spot I didn't notice that. Well I guess they need the extra micro baby siting: move, stop, burst, repeat to have any effect vs SHI.

[Lichtbringer]

If we are looking for general buffs, or things tied to the Exarch, why not give them the benefits of Slow and Purposefull in addition the the negatives they already have? Namely, Firing on the move.

I think it would be a nice little buff that we could definitly atleast try. (+ its fluffy, don'tkill me, thats only a small benefit that I think a unit without much charakter could use in addition to the balance!).

[An'grathul]

Although I don't dislike Dark Reapers, in 1v1s I find it very hard to think of a situation where I'd want Dark Reapers over the other T2 options:

-They work best with the support of other units, firing from behind a line of other Eldar or in synergy with a Falcon
-They offer little to none anti-vehicle/walker protection
-When you slip up a bit they lose models easily

These factors take away their practicality as a 'first purchase', the key element here being the lack of AV that all the other T2 options bring in at least some capacity. (Fire dragon AV, Wraithlord melee and brightlance, haywires, Wraithguard, Falcon anti-all damage...) This relegates them to a later purchase slot, where additional hero wargear, reinforcing or tier progression kick in. If things are going poorly in late T2, I can't imagine many situations in which Dark Reapers can swing things around, conversely, if things are going well, I think I'd rather invest in going for a faster T3 for better options overall.

I've used them with some success against SM, and the increased flexibility that allied play allows you in team games also makes them more viable in a 2v2 or 3v3 environment, but in 1v1 I can't help but feel that there's very little reason to fear the reaper.

[ytimk]

Noob proposal:
Add 50% fire on the move accuracy in next update and see what happens over time.

[Caeltos]

Probably not possible due to animation constrains.

Edit: It's most likely 100% doable, but the thing is. It would look broken as fuck.

[Asmon]

Dark reapers need a proper and well-defined role. Atm they're less cost-effective than WG or FD without anything else but pinning fire and that missile launcher that is quite useless. I think pinning fire is the only good thing design wise.

What I'd do is remove it, and give DR much more courage dmg per shot, thus they'd be able to suppress anything as long as they can fire at them long enough (like 3-4s). Their role would be clear as a non-setup suppression squad with decent dmg at long range. They would be better than WG for this, and very different from FD.

[egewithin]

What I'd do is remove it, and give DR much more courage dmg per shot, thus they'd be able to suppress anything as long as they can fire at them long enough (like 3-4s).

Even Rangers are annoying with their suppression nowadays, this could give all non-Eldar players a blackrage. I mean Warshout / Shrunken / Ranger shots and now Dark Reapers? And passively? I know you give 3 - 4 seconds just to nerf it and keep it aways from being over powerness but ummm... It is definetly OP. Not because of the ideas it self, but because of the Eldars it self.

Dear commutiny, Dark Reapers are good. They bring very good amounts of anti-armor support but nothing else exept from Tempest. Just like all Eldar units, Banshees are for melee, rangers are for umm, ranging (?) hard to tell after 2.4, Shrunken is for suppression, FDs are for melta, WG for small D-Cannons and other units. I mean every Eldar unit is focused on one way and very good about it, but gives nothing else from that. Dark Reapers are same, anti-armor fire power. This even can lead to removing Tempest but it is.