Some suggestions

[Ismael]

Hello there, I have some suggestions for dow 2 elite mod, and I would like to hear what you think about them. The first thing is chaos terminators. I don't think they should resemble the SM terminators this much: I mean they are cool, but there is an actual version of chaos terminators which are called obliterators ( you can find them in dow Soulstorm) i would love to see them as obliterators which have more chaotic figure and there effectiveness against all targets. Second thing is for SM:I would like to see assault Terminators as a global ability for all The heroes not just for the force commander much in the way the Eldar heroes everyone of them can call an autarch or a seer council

[Dark Riku]

Chaos terminators and obliterators are 2 different things in the 40K lore.

[Ismael]

Mmmm you're right dark riku maybe adding them as a new unit in the chaos faction

[Dark Riku]

I'm not going to bother with this discussion, I only wanted to point out the fluff mistake.

[ytimk]

Mmmm you're right dark riku maybe adding them as a new unit in the chaos faction

Sorry mate, but it is extremely hard to create a new unit, get it working, and let alone balance it. The modders are talented but dont have unlimited time to focus on this stuff - balance takes up a huge amount of their time as it is.

I would love new units that work well in the game, but unless someone has something already made its not going to happen .

[Ismael]

Ytimk well I don't know about how modders work, but I am seeing a lot of new units in the elite mod already which did not exist in dawn of war retribution like raptors, land raider phobos, chosen plague marines, dark reapers, and fire dragons, and not to mention chaos terminators, so in the future releases if the modders thought of adding a new unit, don't you think Obliterators make a good candidate!? In addition, you didn't tell me what do you think about giving every space marines hero the ability to call assault terminators.

[Indrid]

Those units could be added because the models/animations for them already existed (created by other modders) so Elite could use them with permission. There is nobody currently AFAIK who is actively making new DoW2 unit assets, so it's a big hurdle before things can be added. There are some models knocking around that are not used in Elite mod mostly as a design choice.

I'd love to see Obliterators and/or Mutilators replace Chaos Termies since they are more unique.

[Ismael]

Thank you indrid that is just what i was thinking i mean terminators in dawn of war 1 were the special units for space marines and the obliterators were the special units for chaos. If the modders change chaos terminators to obliterators it would be perfect.

[Swift]

This kind of a change would not be a priority for any of the modders at the moment since assets may not be around, they have other things to do and the models themselves are rather similar. You have to then see what role they fill, in terms of Obliterators and Mutilators they are already doing similar things to Terminators, and in many cases could be too much of a jack of all trades. I don't know for sure of course, but there are more things that must be considered before adding anything.

As for Assault Terminators, they are unique to the FC because they complement his flavour as an offensive commander and being unique to hm gives players an incentive to play FC.

[hiveminion]

People don't need an incentive to play FC, he's one of the most popular heroes.

I don't know why Assault Terminators weren't made available to other SM heroes the same way Seer Council were for Eldar. The Techmarine doesn't really need them I guess because he's got the Ven Dread, but it kinda sucks for the Apo.

[Ismael]

Swiftsabre maybe you're right, but don't you think that chaos terminators are similar in a large way to the space marines terminators? I thought of giving every faction their special unit and not a unit which exist in another faction. chaos terminators exist in warhammer 40k, but you also have more unique special units for chaos forces and these unit are obliterators.Speaking about assault terminators. Don't you think it is unfair that chaos forces can call terminators and you can change them to melee and to range however you like, and that is done for any chaos hero, but space marines heroes only the FC can call melee terminators?

[ChrisNihilus]

Obliterators

I'm going to bet you don't play Tabletop.

Those are closer to Devastator Centurions than Terminators.
And strangely you never said anything about Mutilators.

Anyway Obliterators would be too much a master-of-all-trade to be interesting.
You could made them as Sternguard, switching weapons, but that, while interesting on a flexibility dependant army like Space Marine, would break Chaos that has a very different gameplay which is instead very rigid.

They will either be a must-buy or a useless unit, with basically no way to properly balance them.

chaos terminators exist in warhammer 40k, but you also have more unique special units

Chaos Terminators are different from Loyal Terminators as they are a more generalist unit. Both in TT and here they can upgrade to either ranged support or melee assault, while Loyal have two different squads for that, and in TT have things like Marks and Icons, and even Combi-Weapons for all, while missing some equipment.

I wouldn't mind an extra upgrade for Chaos Termie to make things a little more spicy, but that's it.

[Ismael]

Chrisnihilus First, I didn't play TT before. The only game i played that included these units are dawn of war. Second, chaos forces are not dependant on their terminators very much. They're more like fancy units, and if you see the casts on YouTube you don't see them quite often. We're not talking here about the original units that constitute chaos we're talking about special units of this faction and since they're special; I think from my own perspective be unique to their faction, and no other faction should have them. After that, you said obliterators would make a problem since they will be masters of all trades and there is no way of balancing them, well they will be masters of ranged attacks so if you make their weakness in melee people will have the ability to counter them ( much like a wraithguard who have insane amount of damage in range, but are weak in a melee fight). Finally you said chaos terminators are different from loyalist. For me they still terminators they can't retreat like loyalist terminators, they are slow, everything about them is the same as the loyalists, and having the flexibility to change them to range or melee is not enough to make them something different than loyalists terminators.

[ChrisNihilus]

First, I didn't play TT before. The only game i played that included these units are dawn of war. Second, chaos forces are not dependant on their terminators very much. They're more like fancy units, and if you see the casts on YouTube you don't see them quite often.

I use Chaos Termie often, and so other people. If you don't have an opportunity for a good nuke, or you are low on energy, Termie it is.
They are quite a safe choice. You may not see them often because is not uncommon for Chaos to stay in T2 since we have a very harsh economy and inflexibile army.
We struggle to stay behind tech change of the most flexible races, and sometime we need to sacrifice T3 for some extra stuff to counter a sudden change in the enemy army composition.

We're not talking here about the original units that constitute chaos we're talking about special units of this faction and since they're special; I think from my own perspective be unique to their faction, and no other faction should have them.

GK should look like a nightmare to you.
(I don't like them, too)

After that, you said obliterators would make a problem since they will be masters of all trades and there is no way of balancing them, well they will be masters of ranged attacks so if you make their weakness in melee people will have the ability to counter them ( much like a wraithguard who have insane amount of damage in range, but are weak in a melee fight).

Wraithguard is one of the most hatred unit right now, since it's almost impossible to field a reliable counter to them.
Anyway, Wraithguard are a very inflexible unit in a very fast and reliable army. They slow Eldar down quite a bit, and force them to stay more compact than they would want to.
For Chaos Obliterators would have no downside. Melee weakness in a army with such amazing and numerous counter-melee units is a non-problem.

Finally you said chaos terminators are different from loyalist. For me they still terminators they can't retreat like loyalist terminators, they are slow, everything about them is the same as the loyalists, and having the flexibility to change them to range or melee is not enough to make them something different than loyalists terminators.

Can't retreat and are slow... like Obliterators.

I see plenty of difference for the fact that, even if they do share a lot of things in common of course, these units are in different army and are used for different roles. Loyalist use terminators as a direct counter to certain units. Whatever they are ranged or assault, they have a great weapon choice, and can adapt to the enemy. They are a more offensive choice.
We use them mostly just to toughen up the army and have a spear tip to absorb damage. Claws can be a choice in some cases, but both, and expecially the Reaper Autocannon, are a luxury upgrade.

We already share a lot of units. From Tactical to Havoc/Devastator, Predators (which are almost identical), and even Raptors/Assault Marines share a lot in early game, and they are far more common and relevant than Termies are.
If you want to crusade against shared units, Predators are the one to start with.

[BioTaq]

Chris pretty much nails the termie aspect of your question.

As for your suggestion about the assault marines, it would make the other heroes laughably overpowered. A techmarine supported by a venerable dread AND assault terminators? Good luck trying to counter that. Apothecary rocking an assault squad and a ranged squad? The ranged squad would tear through everything while the assault terminators would become invincible with the apothecary's healing abilities.

The unit call ins for the space marines are geared toward their heroes. The assault terminators compliment the FC because they're in the thick of the fight. The VD is supported with the techmarine's mechanized play style. The apothecary has abilities to support his allies and units. Adding assault termies to the TM and apo would just break the space marine army.

As for the Seer Council, they're mainly a tanky answer for a relatively frail army.

[Ismael]

Chris. In the first part if you and other people use them often then i can't argue that. Second thing grey knights are loyalist space marines who are more pure in warhammer 40k so i don't bother if they resemble space marines too much otherwise it would be weird. Next, I agree with you on what you said about obliterators and about how they would make chaos overpowered plus they won't misfire like a wraithguard guess making them weak in melee will not do the trick. Next, obliterators resemble termies, yet they're different and that is why i would like to see them replace terminators since they have different figure than termies. Finally chaos and space marines share a lot of units but you can't replace any since we can find them in dow 1 and 2, but chaos termies were not in the original game so i thought they would be the best candidate to be changed, and since there are chaos special units that could replace chaos termies like obliterators and mutilators i thought of making this suggestion and make chaos forces more unique.

as for Biotaq, the reason I wanted to have assault termies for every hero in the first place was to counter the seer council (how can you people counter them?) the only force that can make them retreat is assault termies and suppression and since eldar players are very fast your suppression team will be torn apart be a volley of a wraithguard, jumped by an autarch or a gunned by a D-cannon or flanked by banshees of course if i get flanked by banshees there is no way that my unit will survive. whenever i play against an eldar player I get owned very easily.

[Forestradio]

counter the seer council (how can you people counter them?)

predator tank?

[Ismael]

Forestradio a predator tank would do well Against seer council, but the scenario for my every vehicle is a haywire grenade from warp spiders and a wraithguard or a firedragons or an autarch with fusion gun or a D-cannon these guys would tear my vehicles to shreds I actually don't buy vehicles against eldar since they manage to destroy them ALWAYS, and not to mention their eldritch. A predator may work against the seer council but for how long before it is destroyed.

[BioTaq]

If a single Eldar opponent is fielding that much AV against your single vehicle, then I wonder how you even lose to them. Fire dragons do jack to infantry, wraithguard are slow and can be jumped with assault marines. Warp spiders put tissue over their nipples and call it armor. D-cannon? same as any setup team. There are any number of things you can do to keep the AV away from your predators while it takes shots at the seer council.

But in case you're still not convinced, think of it from the either side. How does an eldar player feel whenever they see an assault termie? I'll do a little roleplaying.

"Guys I can't beat assault terminators!"
*someone recommends vehicles*
"I can't do anything because the termies can teleport onto my vehicle, or ASM melta it and stun, or a tac squad with missile launchers hit it, Lascannon devs slow it while everything else swarms it. Plasma devs outrange my vehicles. What do I do?"

Now imagine if the other space marine heroes got to use assault termies? again, game breaking.

A seer council isn't very difficult to deal with. I was watching a replay of a warboss and sluggas+nob vs banshee and counil. The orks one, like really bad.

[Ismael]

Biotaq if all of you have no problem defeating eldar players then i think i need more practice.

[BioTaq]

Not to sound like an asshole.

I recommend you upload a replay of you vs an Eldar player and have some of the more experienced players point out where you can improve.

[Ismael]

Biotaq, i will try your suggestions like the predator and assault marines i will call more assault marines to tie up the setup teams and the wraithguard and if those things didn't work i will upload a replay. Thanks for your feedback

[BioTaq]

No problem. I wish you the best of luck and hope to help you in any future endeavors.

[SinisterLaugh]

I`d love to see oblits in Elite mod, but what are the chances?

to counter the seer council (how can you people counter them?)

There was a thread on seer council, with complaints about how they are inferior to other T3 melee units, especially without Far Seer support abilities.
So I guess, seer council call-in available for all eldar commanders is not such a big deal.

I`m surprised that Forestradio suggested Predator tank and not just "focus fire"

[Dark Riku]

Apothecary rocking an assault squad and a ranged squad? The ranged squad would tear through everything while the assault terminators would become invincible with the apothecary's healing abilities.

GJ on ignoring the apothecary then.

Fire dragons do jack to infantry

Fire Dragons do more than fine versus (S)HI units, I.e. almost the entire roster of SM's.

wraithguard are slow and can be jumped with assault marines.

Yes, they are slow, but can be sped up with many Eldar abilities.
You can jump them with ASM sure, but you also have to deal with a shuriken most likely and banshees will be around combined with a T2 hero.

Warp spiders put tissue over their nipples and call it armor.

You serious? -.- They just teleport from (perfect) cover to (perfect) cover.

D-cannon? same as any setup team.

Except the huge range they have and are behinds the Eldar lines ~~


People need to stop undervaluation the Seer Council, seriously. I do not understand where people are coming from!

[BioTaq]

You're right, my examples were poor and I should have stated that units will never go one on one. I should have given a more realistic situation of army compositions, so I'll leave that to more experienced players. But what I was trying to mainly get at is, no army is unbeatable, especially eldar, if one is willing to take the time to learn counters and specific tactics.

[Swift]

Fun fact: FDs do more or the same amount of damage to non vehicles than they do to vehicles.

[Jes]

Yes indeed, Melta is that one damage type that does not discriminate.