Chaos Doom Bolts cooldown

[Laplace's Demon]

Why does the sorcerer have a 10 second cooldown for the doombolts starting ability: 18 plasma damage for each of three bolts = 54 plasma damage. Costs 60 energy out of 100 at lvl 1 which seems about right to me, but that 10 second cooldown on a very powerful ability seems like overkill. If the cooldown stays at 10, maybe widen the spread of the bolts so its hits less reliably or something? For comparison, the Warlock destructor starting ability does 54 grenade damage and costs 40 energy, but the cooldown is 40 seconds, limiting its use to once per engagement normally. Grenade damage and plasma damage merits aside, does a 10 second cooldown not seem like a lot when the ability is also pretty accurate in its plasma hits? What are your thoughts?

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

The bolts are already fairly easy to avoid if a player anticipates them, especially at range. They also get screwed over by terrain and the ability sometimes doesn't fire the full 6 bolts, even if he has 40 energy left; they don't need to hit any less reliably.

10 second cooldown is fine and is offset by the fact that he doesn't have a dedicated ranged wargear option of his own. That, and it all plays into the Sorcerer's playstyle who fights using manipulation and unconventional tactics, one of which is consuming his own units' life essence to sustain his own ego and power. He has to either be very high level or constantly gobbling up tics to keep spamming those doombolts, which are his only real reliable source of constant, direct heavy DPS. He's not meant to be a frontline melee commander; he's disrupting setup teams, immobilising enemy squads or firing off doombolts from behind his main force.

[Tex]

Lore has nothing to do with it.

Destructor is almost instantaneous AOE damage. It doesn't hit terrain, it can be cancelled without energy loss, and can be paired with immolate for a 2x AOE cast at level 1. Just some of the reasons for the longer cooldown

Doombolts have a slower transit, have potentially 6 damage instances instead of 1, hit terrain, and cannot be cancelled without energy loss. Just some of the reasons for the shorter cooldown.

[Laplace's Demon]

(...) doombolts (...) are his only real reliable source of constant, direct heavy DPS. He's not meant to be a frontline melee commander; he's disrupting setup teams, immobilising enemy squads or firing off doombolts from behind his main force.

But doesn't having instant and spammable access to reliable heavy dps encourage using him as a frontline commander? In practice the source is used far more aggressively than the other real backline support commanders (mek, farseer, techmarine ish etc). If the vision is to be backline manipulation and support, why have such a short cooldown? Seems odd imo.

[Laplace's Demon]

Lore has nothing to do with it.

Destructor is almost instantaneous AOE damage. It doesn't hit terrain, it can be cancelled without energy loss, and can be paired with immolate for a 2x AOE cast at level 1. Just some of the reasons for the longer cooldown

Doombolts have a slower transit, have potentially 6 damage instances instead of 1, hit terrain, and cannot be cancelled without energy loss. Just some of the reasons for the shorter cooldown.

Sure, but destructor also requires direct LoS, while the bolts can fly over some walls IIRC. Saying something can be paired with others goes the same for everyone. Everything can be paired with other abilities in some way at some point, and plenty can be dodged if anticipated. Dodging doombolts is very tricky in practice and generally relies on poor aim and range to succeed; not to mention the lack of target marker to tell you where they will land. My question is whether the ability should be as spammable or not, I guess. The high rate of use seems debatable, given the high damage it does .

[Adeptus Noobus]

(...) doombolts (...) are his only real reliable source of constant, direct heavy DPS. He's not meant to be a frontline melee commander; he's disrupting setup teams, immobilising enemy squads or firing off doombolts from behind his main force.

But doesn't having instant and spammable access to reliable heavy dps encourage using him as a frontline commander? In practice the source is used far more aggressively than the other real backline support commanders (mek, farseer, techmarine ish etc). If the vision is to be backline manipulation and support, why have such a short cooldown? Seems odd imo.

He is by no means a frontline commander. He has 650 hp which means he will get rekt early on if used like the Force Commander or the Warboss.

[egewithin]

Remember that Doombolts have an energy penalty. You have to wait untill you have at least 100 energy. You spended first 60, and fired 6 bolts. You have to wait untill you have 100 or more to fire that additional 3 bolts to be effective so this is additional a half minute on cooldown. Not as scary as you think.

If you are thinking about consume, yes you may have a better point now. But consume has a cooldown eather. And how many heretics can he kill for an ability? After firing first and second shot, you should be able to find a cover to protect your self from these flying purple things which sounds Slaaneshy in this way I say.

[The great Cornholio]

No way in hell doombolts are getting changed...i forbid it!. and like other people say.. you can dodge them most of the time . they only really hurt if you are standing still out in the open and ignoring your unit.. if you are behind cover they are pretty much shit. doombolts are such a big part of sorc play ( even in t3 ) that changing the cooldown time would really make him frustrating to play and ruin his abillity to counter setup teams as well as he does..

so cornholio says.. no way man...

[Laplace's Demon]

No way in hell doombolts are getting changed...i forbid it!. and like other people say.. you can dodge them most of the time . they only really hurt if you are standing still out in the open and ignoring your unit.. if you are behind cover they are pretty much shit. doombolts are such a big part of sorc play ( even in t3 ) that changing the cooldown time would really make him frustrating to play and ruin his abillity to counter setup teams as well as he does..

so cornholio says.. no way man...

Ok, but saying you can dodge it applies to so many things too. Why change anything if you can dodge it?

As for his countering setup teams, teleport and warp gate among other things so the job without having a nuts cooldown time on one ability. He already counters setups like a boss, so again, why the cooldown of 10 seconds?

[Laplace's Demon]

Humor me for a moment: at 100 energy, the sorce uses 60 to fire 6 bolts for 108 plasma damage total, spread over a modest area, leaving 40 energy (correct?). If he regens 1 energy/ second, that means the bolt cooldown is effectively 20 seconds, since it takes that long to get the energy to use it again (not including consume), meaning that over a 30 second period he can dish out 162 plasma damage. What other starting ability can do that that doesn't cost resources to buy? This is why he is used so offensively, despite not being a frontline commander proper. If the cooldown was longer than the time taken to recharge the energy, say 30 seconds, then it becomes less spammable while keeping the damage, energy cost and all the reasons for why it gets used. Remember this is a STARTING ability. Maybe have it scale as he levels, where cooldown decreases over each level or something. Is what I'm saying unreasonable? Maybe there is another starting ability somewhere that compares to 5.4 plasma damage per second over 30 seconds roughly?

[Kentation]

I think you made some mistakes, using doombolts only fires 3 bolts at first at the cost of 60 energy, if he has spare energy, he will fire another 3.

[Laplace's Demon]

I think you made some mistakes, using doombolts only fires 3 bolts at first at the cost of 60 energy, if he has spare energy, he will fire another 3.

I did not. 6 doom bolts = 108 (the extra 3 cost no energy) + 3 doombolts for 54. 108+54=162

[Kentation]

Ah, my bad, I got confused.

The only thing I could add to the discussion is that since the damage of doombolts is spread across each bolt, you can avoid some of the damage if you are mobile. 108 aoe damage on the first 6 bolts sounds scary, yes but it isn't a flat damage of 108 if your squad is on the move.

This isn't intended to be a definitive argument to end the discussion, but I believe is worth mentioning and is something to consider when looking at its damage and such.

[Wise Windu]

Some stuff I've noticed when playing against Chaos that might affect the ability's balance. Any actual Chaos mains feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on something.

First of all, Chaos is a heavy damage-dealing faction. They have a lot of high damage units, specialized units, but overall less health and staying power than their SM counterparts. With that in mind...

The Sorcerer is the most vulnerable of the three Chaos heroes in the early game. He can't tank as much, or be as aggressive, as the Chaos Lord, can't heal like the PC (with his ability and worship), and so he has to rely on trickery and things like that to be effective. And since he and his army don't have as much straight up staying power as the PC and CL, and he is much more fragile than both, the Doombolts + Consume gives him a way to deal more damage early on without having to directly be part of a fight. It allows him to soften the enemy in order to pull him back up to the early damage/sustain potential of the other heroes. This means though, that if you don't have what you need to deal with his tricks, it's a lot like playing against the Warp Spider Exarch. He can pick you apart pretty convincingly. Once he has those other tricks, though, he won't be using Doombolts nearly as much, since his wargear abilities tend to enable his aggression, especially against more defensive opponents.

And having the Heretics further back in order to let him Consume them means he isn't being as aggressive, and sometimes even means he has one less squad in a fight. At the very least, the Heretic squad will be shorthanded. And like I think someone already said, the Doombolts can be fairly easily dodged if you're paying attention, and often they hit terrain if they're used in the wrong place.

[Laplace's Demon]

Some stuff I've noticed when playing against Chaos that might affect the ability's balance. Any actual Chaos mains feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on something.

First of all, Chaos is a heavy damage-dealing faction. They have a lot of high damage units, specialized units, but overall less health and staying power than their SM counterparts. With that in mind...

The Sorcerer is the most vulnerable of the three Chaos heroes in the early game. He can't tank as much, or be as aggressive, as the Chaos Lord, can't heal like the PC (with his ability and worship), and so he has to rely on trickery and things like that to be effective. And since he and his army don't have as much straight up staying power as the PC and CL, and he is much more fragile than both, the Doombolts + Consume gives him a way to deal more damage early on without having to directly be part of a fight. It allows him to soften the enemy in order to pull him back up to the early damage/sustain potential of the other heroes. This means though, that if you don't have what you need to deal with his tricks, it's a lot like playing against the Warp Spider Exarch. He can pick you apart pretty convincingly. Once he has those other tricks, though, he won't be using Doombolts nearly as much, since his wargear abilities tend to enable his aggression, especially against more defensive opponents.

And having the Heretics further back in order to let him Consume them means he isn't being as aggressive, and sometimes even means he has one less squad in a fight. At the very least, the Heretic squad will be shorthanded. And like I think someone already said, the Doombolts can be fairly easily dodged if you're paying attention, and often they hit terrain if they're used in the wrong place.

Valuable points here, I appreciate the time you've taken. I don't disagree with the theory of having doombolts soften targets and allow him to do damage. Where I take issue is how much damage over how long a period of time. In practice, doombolts does much more than soften targets as anyone on the receiving-end will tell you. My thought isn't to reduce the damage it does, but to increase the span of time it does damage over. 162 plasma damage over 30 seconds is quite a bit, especially in T1. Again using the warlock example for comparison; the destructor ability does 54 grenade damage with 40 second cooldown for 20 less energy, and the WL has 40 more health than the sorcerer. The eldar faction is designed to be more of a glass cannon than chaos certainly, but the comparison highlights either an inconsistency in chaos or an inconsistency in eldar in this case, it seems, since the sorce is more cannon and more glass than the WL. I wish there were other comparable starting abilities to bring into the conversation, but I can't seem to recall any others, so for the sake of illustration:

Hypothetically, if SM were to have a librarian starting character with a starting offensive psychic ability, he would have more base health than either the WL or sorce (in keeping with the SM army), but do less psychic damage than both with his ability, no? That sounds like balance to me.

Thoughts?

[Lichtbringer]

This is an interesting/special case. Because its the starting ability of a Hero.

That means, we have to look at different balance metrics then with other things.

Basically the only thing thats important is: How is the performance of a ChaosSorcerer army overall compared to the other 2 Commanders. So comparing it to other things is pretty much useless.^^

[Wise Windu]

The eldar faction is designed to be more of a glass cannon than chaos certainly, but the comparison highlights either an inconsistency in chaos or an inconsistency in eldar in this case, it seems, since the sorce is more cannon and more glass than the WL.

Not necessarily. Just because the Sorcerer is more fragile than the Warlock doesn't mean that the Eldar army over all isn't more fragile. It isn't just the traits of one unit that determines the army's strengths. The Sorcerer is fragile, but he can enable a lot more damage from already powerful weapons. It's all a matter of composition and synergy.

Hypothetically, if SM were to have a librarian starting character with a starting offensive psychic ability, he would have more base health than either the WL or sorce (in keeping with the SM army), but do less psychic damage than both with his ability, no? That sounds like balance to me.

Again, it's all about composition. If the Librarian hero interacted with the rest of the army composition in a way that made him having more health the balanced decision, then yes. If him having more health than an Eldar hero made him too strong based on his synergies with the SM army, having less health would be the balanced decision.

For an already existent example: The Apothecary has 90 less HP than the Warlock and 30 less health than the WSE and Farseer, and the Techmarine has the same amount of HP as the Farseer and WSE. This doesn't seem to gel with the idea of a solid, resilient faction with more HP but less damage. But the two have entirely different roles in their respective armies. The Apothecary is fragile, but his purpose is to make the already resilient SM army more resilient. The Techmarine is fragile, but the Techmarine isn't meant for massed, up close confrontation or disruption, and he is able to support his army well with the ranged damage he deals and the abilities he has. They aren't meant for close combat melee like the Warlock, but they even have less or equal health to the more fragile Eldar heroes.

So that's the idea. If the Librarian hero were to be made, his damage would be balanced not because of the damage dealt by other, similar heroes, but because the way he interacts with his army, and in turn the way his army deals with the enemy, is different than the other heroes with similar abilities. And maybe that would mean he would be somewhere in the middle in terms of HP and damage, or maybe it wouldn't. It all depends on composition and synergy.

[Laplace's Demon]

This is an interesting/special case. Because its the starting ability of a Hero.

That means, we have to look at different balance metrics then with other things.

Basically the only thing thats important is: How is the performance of a ChaosSorcerer army overall compared to the other 2 Commanders. So comparing it to other things is pretty much useless.^^

I try to stay clear of making army-wide assessments based on one hero simply because I feel there are to many factors to evaluate, while also separating skill out of the analysis. Armies as a whole are comprised of many individual specifics. By focusing on individual abilities as they compare to other abilities of the same type/ function, we can better remove L2P as a confounding factor (stats jargon for all you nerds out there). If individual specifics are balanced then we have the greatest chance for the whole being balanced.

Personally, I am less concerned with chaos' internal balance than with balance outside the faction, but that's just me. Since chaos v chaos must use the same units with the same potential (tic excluded of course), that's about as balanced as it is possible to be, since the units are literally the same, where hero variation and skill are the only variables. Since most games are not chaos mirrors, I would leave these finer points to another day.

Tangential: Another thing that drives my balance OCD bonkers is when there is one of two macro builds in a faction that can win a majority of games or is the only realistic option. When one or two things are done all the time, that's when you know it's broken or the internal balance is off. Double shootas comes to mind. Not saying it should be changed, but there may be internal ork balance issues if the VAST majority of ork players play x2 shootas to the exclusion of all else. Same with the old eldar wraithguard. Why would you not take those monsters back in the day?

Food for thought.

[Lichtbringer]

This is an interesting/special case. Because its the starting ability of a Hero.

That means, we have to look at different balance metrics then with other things.

Basically the only thing thats important is: How is the performance of a ChaosSorcerer army overall compared to the other 2 Commanders. So comparing it to other things is pretty much useless.^^

I try to stay clear of making army-wide assessments based on one hero simply because I feel there are to many factors to evaluate, while also separating skill out of the analysis. Armies as a whole are comprised of many individual specifics. By focusing on individual abilities as they compare to other abilities of the same type/ function, we can better remove L2P as a confounding factor (stats jargon for all you nerds out there). If individual specifics are balanced then we have the greatest chance for the whole being balanced.

Personally, I am less concerned with chaos' internal balance than with balance outside the faction, but that's just me. Since chaos v chaos must use the same units with the same potential (tic excluded of course), that's about as balanced as it is possible to be, since the units are literally the same, where hero variation and skill are the only variables. Since most games are not chaos mirrors, I would leave these finer points to another day.

Tangential: Another thing that drives my balance OCD bonkers is when there is one of two macro builds in a faction that can win a majority of games or is the only realistic option. When one or two things are done all the time, that's when you know it's broken or the internal balance is off. Double shootas comes to mind. Not saying it should be changed, but there may be internal ork balance issues if the VAST majority of ork players play x2 shootas to the exclusion of all else. Same with the old eldar wraithguard. Why would you not take those monsters back in the day?

Food for thought.

Oh, I meant external balance. Chaos vs other Factions. How well does the Sorcerer Army fare against Eldar compared to a Chaoslord Army.
The other concern I would have, is if the ability is well designed in general. So for example Lictor Alphas ability was not good, (while pooosibly balanced as a whole) it was frustrating. The Warlocks ability I would also count as not perfectly designed, because of its varying performances against different squads, and its general varying performance because of (probably?) yellow cover, or other factors. Sometimes it simply does no damage, sometimes tons of it.

But comparing the Doombolts to the Warlocks Destructor, does not much good, especially if we only look at the CD, I think.
Just my approach though

[Laplace's Demon]

The eldar faction is designed to be more of a glass cannon than chaos certainly, but the comparison highlights either an inconsistency in chaos or an inconsistency in eldar in this case, it seems, since the sorce is more cannon and more glass than the WL.

Not necessarily. Just because the Sorcerer is more fragile than the Warlock doesn't mean that the Eldar army over all isn't more fragile. It isn't just the traits of one unit that determines the army's strengths. The Sorcerer is fragile, but he can enable a lot more damage from already powerful weapons. It's all a matter of composition and synergy.

Hypothetically, if SM were to have a librarian starting character with a starting offensive psychic ability, he would have more base health than either the WL or sorce (in keeping with the SM army), but do less psychic damage than both with his ability, no? That sounds like balance to me.

Again, it's all about composition. If the Librarian hero interacted with the rest of the army composition in a way that made him having more health the balanced decision, then yes. If him having more health than an Eldar hero made him too strong based on his synergies with the SM army, having less health would be the balanced decision.

For an already existent example: The Apothecary has 90 less HP than the Warlock and 30 less health than the WSE and Farseer, and the Techmarine has the same amount of HP as the Farseer and WSE. This doesn't seem to gel with the idea of a solid, resilient faction with more HP but less damage. But the two have entirely different roles in their respective armies. The Apothecary is fragile, but his purpose is to make the already resilient SM army more resilient. The Techmarine is fragile, but the Techmarine isn't meant for massed, up close confrontation or disruption, and he is able to support his army well with the ranged damage he deals and the abilities he has. They aren't meant for close combat melee like the Warlock, but they even have less or equal health to the more fragile Eldar heroes.

So that's the idea. If the Librarian hero were to be made, his damage would be balanced not because of the damage dealt by other, similar heroes, but because the way he interacts with his army, and in turn the way his army deals with the enemy, is different than the other heroes with similar abilities. And maybe that would mean he would be somewhere in the middle in terms of HP and damage, or maybe it wouldn't. It all depends on composition and synergy.

The beauty of the sorce/WL/ hyopthetical-librarian example is that it doesn't compare apples to oranges. They all perform comparable roles in their armies (support/offence combo), they all have the starting offensive psychic ability with respective energy costs, cooldowns etc.

I appreciate the point about synergy but perhaps it makes sense that the eldar offensive frontline hero has more hp than a backline healer. If there was an eldar apothecary I would expect it to have less health than the SM counterpart-in keeping with the eldar motif. As you say, they have entirely different roles and so are not as easily compared. A better comparison for your point might be the PC and the techmarine-albeit the PC also plays the prominent role of healer and often frontline melee. Techmarine-mekboy might be even better.

[Wise Windu]

but perhaps it makes sense that the eldar offensive frontline hero has more hp than a backline healer.

Of course it does. But I also stated that the Apo and TM have the same and lower health when compared to the support and avoidance heroes as well. Part of your point was that the theme of the races should imply a higher HP or lower damage count in similar roles for SM heroes because that is the theme of the race.

I try to stay clear of making army-wide assessments based on one hero simply because I feel there are to many factors to evaluate, while also separating skill out of the analysis. Armies as a whole are comprised of many individual specifics. By focusing on individual abilities as they compare to other abilities of the same type/ function, we can better remove L2P as a confounding factor (stats jargon for all you nerds out there). If individual specifics are balanced then we have the greatest chance for the whole being balanced.

You can't have one without the rest. If individual things are "balanced" without taking into consideration the other factors that go into them, like composition, player skill, or potential skill ceiling, there is no context for the abilities to be related to. Balance can't happen that way, unless by luck. You can't go by numbers alone.

When one or two things are done all the time, that's when you know it's broken or the internal balance is off. Double shootas comes to mind.

Mathis has played 3x Sluggas and made it work beautifully. It's a testament to what can be done through high player skill. Some players go Shoota+Slugga as well.

Not saying it should be changed, but there may be internal ork balance issues if the VAST majority of ork players play x2 shootas to the exclusion of all else. Same with the old eldar wraithguard. Why would you not take those monsters back in the day?

Just because most people do it, doesn't mean it's definitely the best. How many people still play the standard SM Scout+Tac+Scout, even after Noisy showed how powerful a 3 Scout opening can be if handled correctly, or how brutal 3 Heretic+CSM+Havoc can be as Sorcerer; no one does that one either. The reason most people don't is because it's difficult to execute well. But when it is done correctly, it's great. Besides, the first two units made do not account for the entire build. The variation after those units are made have to be taken into account. The upgrades as well.

The beauty of the sorce/WL/ hyopthetical-librarian example is that it doesn't compare apples to oranges.

No, but it doesn't compare apples to apples, either. You can't have the abilities without the context: the capabilities of the army. Maybe like comparing apples to apple sauce. Tastes the same, but you eat it differently.

They all perform comparable roles in their armies (support/offence combo), they all have the starting offensive psychic ability with respective energy costs, cooldowns etc.

As you say, they have entirely different roles and so are not as easily compared. A better comparison for your point might be the PC and the techmarine-albeit the PC also plays the prominent role of healer and often frontline melee. Techmarine-mekboy might be even better.

I think you might be missing my point a little bit. The "role" of the hero in the army is not as important as the units that surround the hero. Heroes with similar roles are reliant on the units around them for balance. A hero could be tanky while the army around it is not (Warboss), the hero could be tanky while the army around it is as well (Force Commander). They have close to the same roles: Tie things up, anti-melee, buff army. But the way their armies receive these roles is different, and the distinction between these are important. Whether you want to take the other factors into account or not, they are necessary.

[Tex]

This is an interesting/special case. Because its the starting ability of a Hero.

That means, we have to look at different balance metrics then with other things.

Basically the only thing thats important is: How is the performance of a ChaosSorcerer army overall compared to the other 2 Commanders. So comparing it to other things is pretty much useless.^^

I try to stay clear of making army-wide assessments based on one hero simply because I feel there are to many factors to evaluate, while also separating skill out of the analysis. Armies as a whole are comprised of many individual specifics. By focusing on individual abilities as they compare to other abilities of the same type/ function, we can better remove L2P as a confounding factor (stats jargon for all you nerds out there). If individual specifics are balanced then we have the greatest chance for the whole being balanced.

Personally, I am less concerned with chaos' internal balance than with balance outside the faction, but that's just me. Since chaos v chaos must use the same units with the same potential (tic excluded of course), that's about as balanced as it is possible to be, since the units are literally the same, where hero variation and skill are the only variables. Since most games are not chaos mirrors, I would leave these finer points to another day.

Tangential: Another thing that drives my balance OCD bonkers is when there is one of two macro builds in a faction that can win a majority of games or is the only realistic option. When one or two things are done all the time, that's when you know it's broken or the internal balance is off. Double shootas comes to mind. Not saying it should be changed, but there may be internal ork balance issues if the VAST majority of ork players play x2 shootas to the exclusion of all else. Same with the old eldar wraithguard. Why would you not take those monsters back in the day?

Food for thought.

In regards to destructor vs doombolts...

If you didn't get what I said in my first post fully, I think you really need to log some time into the warlock and sorc. You will probably get a good grasp for the way these two things stack up. I wouldn't doubt if I have a thousand hours logged into either hero...

In regards to orks and 2x shootas...

You need to see the new meta. High level ork players (keep in mind I only speak of 1v1 here) have migrated to a much more sluggas based army. Slowly but surely, patch after patch, shoota upgrades have been made weaker in T1 and the burna upgrade for sluggas has been made stronger and stronger, to the point where I now think it is a touch OP.
I think the keys to this migration have been the burna upgrade giving so much for 15 power, and also lootas getting big buffs in ELITE mod.

[saltychipmunk]

i don't think it is a particularly good comparison , this destructor vs doom bolt thing. the destructor has a notably muted effect vs higher hp lower model squads.

will it mess up some heretics. oh yeah it will but you kind of expect that really.

Doombolts on the other hand are more unpredictable and as a result way more dangerous. for one-thing their damage type makes them equally effective against everything except single model units or commanders. combine this with the fact that the sorc has infiltration from tics and the consume ability and you have easily 2 sets of 100+ plasma aoe that can come out of no where in the space of 10 seconds.



doom bolt is a ludicrously powerful ability on its own, but it is those other two things that on call invisibility and that consume that elevate it far above the warlocks destructor or really any t1 damage ability.

hell t1 sorc can easily coast by on doombolts where other commanders would need to make multiple wargear investments. A well played sorc is with out a doubt the most dangerous chaos commander pick. ill even take a well played chaos lord player if it means avoiding a good sorc.

[Laplace's Demon]

i don't think it is a particularly good comparison , this destructor vs doom bolt thing. the destructor has a notably muted effect vs higher hp lower model squads.

will it mess up some heretics. oh yeah it will but you kind of expect that really.

Doombolts on the other hand are more unpredictable and as a result way more dangerous. for one-thing their damage type makes them equally effective against everything except single model units or commanders. combine this with the fact that the sorc has infiltration from tics and the consume ability and you have easily 2 sets of 100+ plasma aoe that can come out of no where in the space of 10 seconds.



doom bolt is a ludicrously powerful ability on its own, but it is those other two things that on call invisibility and that consume that elevate it far above the warlocks destructor or really any t1 damage ability.

hell t1 sorc can easily coast by on doombolts where other commanders would need to make multiple wargear investments. A well played sorc is with out a doubt the most dangerous chaos commander pick. ill even take a well played chaos lord player if it means avoiding a good sorc.

I think the water has been muddied somewhat. The question is why doombolts has a 10 second cooldown and not longer, given its damage output. The purpose of mentioning the WL destructor was to illustrate the power of doombolts, since damage is largely relative to target health and competing abilities: if the majority of targets are high health, higher damage is needed to be effective. If competing abilities are low damage, there is a reason for making them higher or lower than their competition if associated costs are changed to account for it. Since destructor is the nearest ability in type and function I felt it was worth mentioning. I understand if there is doubt whether it is worth bringing in due to the differences between the armies that surround the abilities, but if anything, considering the army that surrounds each ability seems to lend support to lengthening the cooldown or something for doombolts.. Given the consume ability, tics infiltration worship, Chaos as a whole having higher damage than SM counterparts, does a 10 second cooldown not seem like overkill when the only real constraints of the ability become energy regen/ consume cooldown time?

As saltychipmunk said, consume allows 2 sets of 100+ plasma aoe to come from nowhere in t1 (before infiltration counters can be built) in a very short span of time from an ability which has zero resource cost and that scales into upper tiers. Doesn't matter who you are, that is a lot and may be worth looking at for changes imho. Whether that means reducing damage to account for high volume, reducing volume to account for high damage, or decreasing accuracy to account for low cost and high damage, surely doombolts is worth looking at for changes?

[Swift]

If you nerf Doombolts where does it leave the Sorceror?:
- His up front out of infiltration shock is gone unless you purchase wargear
- His combat capabilities become severly hampered
- He loses a source of viable anti heavy armour damage early on
- It progressively scales poorely

The reason Doombolts are so strong is the Sorceror is himself, inherently weak, so the fact he has Doombolts fits him well as a psyker. So he does two lots of six bolt blasts over ten seconds, that sounds rather ludicrous when the bolts are what, roughly 16 plasma damage each? But you must look at the wider arc:
- The ability must traverse distance and thus is no nearly so effective at long distance
- The bolts land separately and thus can be partially dodged
- He is required to consume Heretics to keep firing, which doesn't sound too bad, but when you consider the crutch that Heretics provide early on for Chaos it racks up. If the squad is worshipping whilst he is firing, they are incredibly vulnerable, if he keeps eating Heretics then he loses his counter initiation unit, which itself relies on doomblast to be effective, thus reducing the time window with which the Heretics have to doomblast before they need to retreat.

Doombolts alone may seem pretty powerful but they are only effective when the Sorceror is relying on allied units. He is not a one man powerhouse and to see him as a one man powerhouse is liable to getting rekt. He synergises so well with his army that Doombolts is in fact just the Sorceror's way of applying early pressure where he otherwise could not.

[saltychipmunk]

If you nerf Doombolts where does it leave the Sorceror?:
- His up front out of infiltration shock is gone unless you purchase wargear
- His combat capabilities become severly hampered
- He loses a source of viable anti heavy armour damage early on
- It progressively scales poorely
.

-no it is not. assuming we just nerf the cool down you still get a pretty good shock from an initial cast
-no they won't he is still a reasonably capable melee unit with melee skill and an aoe knock-back melee special , i dont think anyone was to reinvent the wheel, in the end the idea that he can fire twice in a short period is what people have issue with.

-no, his source of heavy armor damage will be weakened a little bit, but you know that is still better than having NO implicit anti heavy armor damage for free.. like every other commander.
-it? as in the sorc? or it as in the ability?

if we talk about the sorc , i can say chains of torment and permanently debunk your claim right there.
if we are talking about doom bolts is it really such a bad thing that a FREE >>>>T1<<<<< ability lose some of its potency later in the game?

i say nope.


The sorcerer is also not simply just his doom bolts. again his on call invisibility is insanely powerful , the double tic sorc opener is extremely dangerous because it forces a detector on your part while he goes for fast havocs or noise marines, units that can negate your armor and contribute to an early fight far more than a detector.. and counter the detector . we have all tasted this tactic. the creeping invisible havoc / noise marine to your gen farm strat.. exploiting the low detection radius of most detectors which is conveniently shorter than the havocs range.

It is extremely useful .

point being
most chaos commanders are more than their starting abilities. and one can argue that the worship on the tics alone is enough to keep a given commander viable. lord knows that is the case with the plague champion in those first few fights.

[Dark Riku]

Not bringing any more arguments since Tex touched upon them already. If anyone is interested I think doombolts are just fine.

[Crewfinity]

Personally I think doom bolts might be just a little bit too strong in the early game, for example if sluggas engage normal heretics in first engagement a doomblast and then a well placed doom bolts can bring them down to about a quarter health in just a second, and maybe is just a bit too easy to get wipes. It feels almost as punishing as approaching a PC when you try to set up an engagement with the sorc.

But overall I don't really have any other complaints.
If anything is OP about the sorc it's not the doombolts.

[saltychipmunk]

well in that particular case , it is comparable to a destructor. since both are used with each race's respective melee unit to wipe light melee mid fight. so that particular thing is not very new. As with destructor the solution is unfortunately to trick the sorc/ lock into precasting it , that is not an easy task vs a competent opponent .

But i do agree, the sorc has many powerful tools as his disposal so it is not very realistic to pin it all on his bolts.

[Nurland]

I don't really see a huge issue with doombolts. Sorc is not exactly a strong hero early on apart from doombolts. They are pretty much the only thing he has going for him early on. He is not fast, average melee dps, low hp. Doombolts is the only way to get some real mileage from Sorc early on imo. Doombolts are possible to dodge. Well placed doombolts are hard to dodge but as mentioned previously you can dodge doombolts partially or retreat out of them before getting hit by all of the bolts.

Also investing on Sorc makes him less likely to spend his energy on doombolts since his abilities are quite energy intensive. So he generally has to keep munching Tics to keep his energy bar high enough to keep using his abilities.

I would argue Doombolts are not the strongest aspect of Sorceror. His worship, globals and sigil are the most insane stuff he has. Even taking into account that Doombolts is a starting ability.