Fire Dragons

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

Does anybody else not think it's a bit insane that Fire Dragons are immune to all types of knockback by default? Even ability knockback. I hit two squads of them full on with a rocket run in a game last night and they didn't budge from their spot.

I know that Fire Dragons were majorly squishy and prone to quick unit wipes under sustained fire before, but I think their performance is a bit too bonkers for their 30 power cost as they are right now.

Immune to all knockback
Melt through light vehicles alone and are devastating when used in pairs
Passive 30% passive ranged damage reduction
Cost only 45 power to have a fully upgraded squad

I get as apprehensive seeing Fire Dragons hit the field in T2 as I would seeing a squad of Terminators bearing down on me. They're fucking scary.

[Indrid]

Ability knockback immunity seems a bit mental.

[Cyris]

They are also fire resistant light infantry (so no bonus damage from plasma, and 50% less damage from fire) and have 200 courage so they take twice as long to suppress. 6.5 move speed too, and around 80 dps (more with the active ability)

I think they used to suck for a long time, but have reached an over-buffed state. They counter vehicles very well, then serve as basically cc and melee immune anti all squads. Have not enough experience with elder right now to know what to change, but something has to give.

[Kvn]

Personally I really enjoy seeing my opponents field Dragons since it means they won't be buying anything big and scary like a Falcon or a Wraithlord in a timely manner. Against infantry they're pretty much just an expensive damage sponge that costs power to reinforce, and they can only be a threat to vehicles if you drop your micro or get caught out. Keep in mind that while Dragons aren't all that expensive on their own, they have very short range, no way to approach safely, and only moderately threatening damage output. To make them scary you really need something like Warpspiders to support with Haywire which makes the two squads a massive investment that will bleed Eldar eco heavily. Especially if it's a matchup where Spiders aren't really wanted.

Not sure what the 'melee immune' comment is meant to be, 'cus melee absolutely wrecks Dragons. They're a lot like Wraithguard in that regard. Close range, but no melee capability. Sure they can't be knocked down, but they can still be torn to shreds in seconds. That damage resist doesn't apply to close combat. As for their anti-all capabilities, it only extends about as much as that of Storm Troopers with Anti Armor kit. They'll outshoot light squads, but they need to get in close and don't tend to survive that sort of thing.

I definitely agree about the ability knock-back immunity being pretty crazy though. They should be tossed around by a nuke same as any unit. If they do get a nerf, that's the first thing I'd suggest getting rid of.

[Laplace's Demon]

Having knockback immunity allows fire dragons some small chance of getting close enough to use their weapons before they melt to incoming fire. They don't see a ridiculous amount of game-time as-is and due to their super low health, are a huge gamble in t2, as t2 light infantry with close range guns die to a stiff sneeze. Knocking them back is effectively killing them. Let them keep it I say. There are plenty of other balance issues to go after that warrant more attention (cough* retreating terminator armor cough*).

[Adeptus Noobus]

Does anybody else not think it's a bit insane that Fire Dragons are immune to all types of knockback by default? [...]
Immune to all knockback
Melt through light vehicles alone and are devastating when used in pairs
Passive 30% passive ranged damage reduction
Cost only 45 power to have a fully upgraded squad

I get as apprehensive seeing Fire Dragons hit the field in T2 as I would seeing a squad of Terminators bearing down on me. They're fucking scary.

I was a little reluctant to ask this here myself but it is good to see that other people have experienced the same. Now I would agree that they are/were squishy but now that they are immune to all types of knockback they can become somewhat of a nightmare to deal with for the reasons mentioned by Slaaneshi:

• Knockback immunity (all types - they will continue to fire at you even if hit by a nuke)
• 200 Courage (they are very hard to suppress)
• Dragons Fury (100% accuracy and -50% cooldown resulting in 21.91 dps - roughly +30% increase in damage)
• Dragon Scale Armor (+30% ranged dmg reduction)

Distort Field, Guide, Crackshot, Enhance, Cloak of Shadows, Doom, and Fortune synergizes extremely well with Fire Dragons (don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind unit synergy), but in this case I believe a little bit too much.

Enhance turns them into extreme tank hunters with 8.5 speed and a damage buff of more than 50% (Enhance + Dragons Fury). Distort field makes sure they survive the hunt. Cloak of Shadows makes sure they get into combat range.
Both Crackshot and Guide make Fire Dragons fire from further away and deal more damage.

Combine all this with the fact that they are hard to suppress and can not be knocked back at all and you have yourself a very very potent unit. I am not saying OP, but their resistance to knockback could be toned down a little bit and they would still be a very potent unit.

[Dark Riku]

@Kvn
Fire dragons are part of the Eldar roster, they have plenty of tools to approach.
Bleed won't be there just because you bought 2 T2 units ...

People talk about melee not being good against them because of their base speed, they can outrun most melee squads.

They don't see a ridiculous amount of game-time as-is

I beg to differ.

[Cyris]

People talk about melee not being good against them because of their base speed, they can outrun most melee squads.

Add in knockdown immunity to negate lucky specials putting you on your face, and the moment the melee stops chasing they can turn and start dealing 80 dps right back. If you have the micro to spare, they will be completely safe from anything without big speed boosts (banshees, hormas etc are problems)

[Kvn]

Fire dragons are part of the Eldar roster, they have plenty of tools to approach.

Most of which are very blatant and easy to see such as Holo Fields, Cloak of Shadows, Group Teleport, Falcon (which adds to the cost of fielding them significantly), and so on. None of these are particularly sneaky or all that difficult to play around. The only ambush tactic they have is using Webway Gates, which as I stated in the previous thread, isn't all that consistent, nor will it work against a player with strong map awareness and dedicated detectors.

Bleed won't be there just because you bought 2 T2 units ...

No. Bleed won't be there because you bought two T2 units. Bleed will be there however because you bought two units who are among the most bleed-heavy squads in the Eldar roster. Warp Spiders drop in an instant to concentrated ranged firepower, and their reinforcement cost kills Eldar eco hard. And before you say that they should never take losses due to their teleport, anyone who has ever played against Eldar will know to focus them down before they can flee. They're an extremely high-priority target. Dragons are a bit tankier, but they need to get right up in the enemy's face, exposing them to both heavy ranged firepower as well as counter-initiation units. Even with their inherent ranged damage resist, they die very quickly, one of the reasons I'm happy to see my opponent getting them.

People talk about melee not being good against them because of their base speed, they can outrun most melee squads.

Melee charge is a thing. If you're fighting Dragons, it's usually because you have a vehicle. In which case, all you need to do is keep that melee squad back a bit, wait for them to charge in, and set your guys on them. If they want to shoot your Dread, Chimera, Prism, etc. they'll be well within melee charge range and get caught regardless of their base speed. At that point, all you have to do is keep your vehicle still for a few seconds, letting the Dragons punch it uselessly instead of chase it down, while your melee units tear them to shreds.

If you're just talking about a 1v1 backcapping scenario, that's a different matter, but nobody in their right minds would buy Dragons just to cap. If they really needed a unit for that they'd get an Autarch who is just as fast, comes with fleet and a jump, can get surprisingly durable with her shield, and can solo a lot more units than the Dragons can.

[Dark Riku]

Elderp is name-calling? XD

I play Elderp regularly.

But fine, I'll indulge you on your request.
You can't see holo fields -.- that's the thing about holo fields. They are infiltrated. Don't plop it down while the enemy has line of sight -.-
All those other things also add some value to your army, they're not just there as an extension of the dragons
Dragons are even fine on their own!

No, they won't bleed, you buy the units for what they bring to the table, to counter your enemy and gain map control.

Melee charge is only a thing if you are sleeping.

[Kentation]

Just to back up on something more constructive.

Fire dragons are part of the Eldar roster, they have plenty of tools to approach.

Most of which are very blatant and easy to see such as Holo Fields, Cloak of Shadows, Group Teleport, Falcon (which adds to the cost of fielding them significantly), and so on. None of these are particularly sneaky or all that difficult to play around.

What is your opinion on distort field, the 15% ranged damage resistance from Cloak of Shadows ability and swift movement from the Warlock? There is also fortune from the Farseer.

If melee is a problem, the Eldar commanders have abilities to deal with it. For example, Farseer has levitation field/pyschic storm/mind war to control squads such as melee. WSE can use on entangle or phase shift while the WL can use warp throw/ethereal slash.

[Wise Windu]

Post replays, please. Seeing the situations in action rather than just theorycrafting based on games that no one else here has seen could help the understanding of the unit based on context and actual gameplay.

[Codex]

I'm way too tired to deal with this shit at length and properly, so just one thing: BE CIVIL. If you can't don't post. Speaking of lack of patience, I've not got any for ad hominem attacks and lack of contentful discussion.

[hiveminion]

A melee charge doesn't help all that much, whenever a model catches up with the Fire Dragons and makes an attack, it will stop to make the attack animation, and by the time it finishes the Fire Dragons will have moved far away from it. So even when moving through a melee blob Fire Dragons will most likely only take one close combat hit per enemy model, not even counting all the special attacks that will probably miss.

I think Fire Dragons shouldn't have any kind of passive knockback resistance at all, considering their speed, damage resistance and suppression resistance.

[Sub_Zero]

My approach to balance them is to invent more abilities for them that could be activated for specific benefits. Like to prevent knockback and etc. I've not used this unit myself that much to tell about possible abilities but I think that any unit that has abilities (and not stupid abilities like +40 more damage at will) with interesting mechanism positively affect gameplay. More interesting to play this way, harder to use a unit and more balanced in this very case with fire dragons since they clearly overperform with all these traits that are passive.

[saltychipmunk]

@ Lichtbringer From my PoV Kvn's post are anything but respectful. Him bringing examples that don't make sense don't help much either.
It doesn't matter what you do, if there was a replay involved, most people won't even look at it or complain about whatever they feel like. And even then, it's not like 1 replay is enough to prove anything. That would also mean everyone has to save every replay and remember what happened just to show here? :/
This whole game is much more complicated than what these theorycrafters here assume that it is.

you aren't wrong , most of the time i don't have the means or the time chunk to watch replays.. sorry. that being said when playing the game you can feel when certain units are performing or under performing based on your own built standards.

I gotta say, for their price tag fire-dragons feel ridiculously powerful , enough so that i tend to make forcing them off or tying them up a major priority in combat. they aren't even really used for dealing with vehicles ( although they do that very well ) rather i tend to see them in matches with no tanks in them. just as a standard why the hell not squad pick. that right there seems to suggest an issue with their design. most other cheap t2 av squads are purposefully shit at everything else to justify their low price tag and ability to deal with tanks.

venoms , tankbusts, storm troopers .. purgs i guess to a small extent all fall into this mold which fire dragons seem to break

[Tex]

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Venoms provide your ranged blob with an insane aura

Storm troopers can cloak. They are a perpetual counter to setup teams from the moment they are purchased.

Purgations when upgraded have a damage type that is fully effective against all armor types and ability that makes their range impressive to say the least.

I guess you are mostly right about tankbustas, but even these guys can add some nice damage to infantry fire fights with rokkit barrage.

[saltychipmunk]

?????????????????????????

Venoms provide your ranged blob with an insane aura

Storm troopers can cloak. They are a perpetual counter to setup teams from the moment they are purchased.

Purgations when upgraded have a damage type that is fully effective against all armor types and ability that makes their range impressive to say the least.

I guess you are mostly right about tankbustas, but even these guys can add some nice damage to infantry fire fights with rokkit barrage.

venoms if i recall no longer get the aura implicitly but rather as part of an expensive upgrade. the base venom brood however only provides basic synapse and anti vehicle capabilities , once you purchase that upgrade , the brood can no longer be considered cheap av.

storm troopers are also extremely brittle , and you can argue any stealth unit can be used to tie up setup units. for their price they are certainly not the kind of unit you want exposed for long.

the purge do admittedly have a weapon that is effective at vs all types, however the damage they do for the unit cost is low as a result. making them better vs vehicles and very light infantry which both have low hp pools. vs anything with low model counts or high hp , purges hit notably soft.

and the tankbustas rocket barrage is still an ability . saying it makes them good vs any thing other than tanks is akin to saying the melta bomb on asm or the haywire grenade on warp spider make them effective standalone av units. There is a fundamental difference in saying these units are useful in other roles and saying these units are as good in other rolls.

they are useful . but for the money spent. other units work better.

the situations where i would need two of any of these squads (fully upgraded) is extremely rare and would be very dependent on the unit composition of my opponent. in contrast with fire dragons i would use them easily as general units and could see my self using 2 of them in many situations.

[Tex]

fully upgraded fire dragons cost = 445/45

fully upgraded venom brood cost = 350/40

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even after ranged synapse, venoms are 10 req cheaper and 10 power more expensive than FD's.

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180hp per model on level 1 stormtroopers. When cloaked they take reduced ranged fire damage. This is brittle? Stormtroopers of any variant can position themselves correctly before an engagement begins in order to counter a setup team. I never said then need to melee it. Why not just shoot it or in the case of AKST, throw a grenade on it?

I agreed with you mostly on tankbustas, but if you read my quote again, please see the part where I say, "..but even these guys can add some nice damage to infantry fire fights with rokkit barrage".
Maybe you should try it, because the ability actually does big damage to anything including commanders. I don't see how that wouldn't help to keep them relevant outside of a vehicle threat.

Your final statement makes a bit more sense of course. Given the choice out of these units, which would you rather have a pair of and which could be used as a generalist after a vehicle threat is gone... Well certainly fire dragons would be high up on that list.

[Atlas]

I'm pretty sure ranged synapse got adjusted from 50/40 to 100/25, which would make a fully upgraded venom brood 400/40 no?

[saltychipmunk]

fully upgraded fire dragons cost = 445/45

fully upgraded venom brood cost = 350/40

..............................

even after ranged synapse, venoms are 10 req cheaper and 10 power more expensive than FD's.

..............................

180hp per model on level 1 stormtroopers. When cloaked they take reduced ranged fire damage. This is brittle? Stormtroopers of any variant can position themselves correctly before an engagement begins in order to counter a setup team. I never said then need to melee it. Why not just shoot it or in the case of AKST, throw a grenade on it?

I agreed with you mostly on tankbustas, but if you read my quote again, please see the part where I say, "..but even these guys can add some nice damage to infantry fire fights with rokkit barrage".
Maybe you should try it, because the ability actually does big damage to anything including commanders. I don't see how that wouldn't help to keep them relevant outside of a vehicle threat.

Your final statement makes a bit more sense of course. Given the choice out of these units, which would you rather have a pair of and which could be used as a generalist after a vehicle threat is gone... Well certainly fire dragons would be high up on that list.

notes on venoms, while they do buff other nid units they themselves are still only av. and rely on other nids units to rise above this, which is why i said useful. but you would never have 2 upgraded venom broods. the most likely scenario is you have 1 upgraded as part of a nid ranged progression. but as a standalone unit , they do av and not much else.

notes on storms "180 per model"...... >in t2<... they are brittle, they are very brittle. this can mitigated easily enough in small scale engagements. but storms are one the largest req sink sources ig has in t2 when it comes to bleed.


notes on tank bustas, because it is a one off ability. use it once .. now what? what do they do after they deliver a barrage? tanks and buildings. again i point to jump units and vehicle disable nades. those are great too vs tanks but no one expects them to do enough to kill a tank on their own. no one calls warspiders or asm good av units. so we really should not be calling tank bustas good artillery units because they get barrage.


the key difference here is that all the units i just listed have situational uses outside just being an av unit . venoms can support other units
bustas get a one off arty shot, storms can infiltrate and do sneaky stuff and purgs can be kinda threatening to everything.

but firedragons can elevate themselves above that situational potency , to simply general potency. that is the point i am emphasizing here.

[Tex]

I'm pretty sure ranged synapse got adjusted from 50/40 to 100/25, which would make a fully upgraded venom brood 400/40 no?

right you are, I missed the pricing on that one

[Adeptus Noobus]

This is just a skirmish vs Expert AI and should thus not be taken all too serious. It does show though, what damage double Fire Dragons can inflict in less than 15 seconds (with the help of Banshees) without the possibility of being knocked back at all: https://youtu.be/nTD2pmq44DI

[SinisterLaugh]

This is just a skirmish vs Expert AI and should thus not be taken all too serious. It does show though, what damage double Fire Dragons can inflict in less than 15 seconds (with the help of Banshees) without the possibility of being knocked back at all: https://youtu.be/nTD2pmq44DI

Almost 15 secs with 2 squads, doom and banshees? Meh... Not impressive, really.
Without kb immunity FDs will be useless again.

[hiveminion]

Without kb immunity FDs will be useless again.

Pick any or all of the following responses that just went through my head the moment I read that:

1.Then let's just remove them from the game, it's not like they fill a particular niche that Eldar are lacking.
2. Only in the Eldar roster would fast-moving melta infantry be considered 'useless'
3. Are you suggesting that the one thing that solely determines whether Fire Dragons are good or useless is their ability to be knocked back?

It makes very little sense balance-wise, and it makes no sense at all in terms of how the rest of the game works. Knockback immunity is reserved for slow, cumbersome units to add to their durability. Fire Dragons are a fast, lightweight unit. A shotgun blast will knock over a Nob but not a Fire Dragon. That's idiotic.

[SinisterLaugh]

Without kb immunity FDs will be useless again.

Pick any or all of the following responses that just went through my head the moment I read that:

1.Then let's just remove them from the game, it's not like they fill a particular niche that Eldar are lacking.
2. Only in the Eldar roster would fast-moving melta infantry be considered 'useless'
3. Are you suggesting that the one thing that solely determines whether Fire Dragons are good or useless is their ability to be knocked back?

Well, all of them are pretty good, so I`d like to pick all of them
1. I can support that, but to my mind less diversity make this game less interesting.
2 and 3. "Useless" is a strong word, so I apologize for that. But it seems that prior to the buffs of current patch, FDs were pretty much underused and didn`t get much attention. And really, how can FDs be very effective (even in their main anti vehicle/gen farms role) being high model count squad with low hp and short range weapons? They`re melting to enemy fire very fast, and when knocked on the ground they die even faster.

But, actually, I`m all for removing the existing anti-kb ability, but not entirely. Better add that feat to their "Dragon`s Fury" ability.

[Adeptus Noobus]

But, actually, I`m all for removing the existing anti-kb ability, but not entirely. Better add that feat to their "Dragon`s Fury" ability.

That is a good idea in my opinion. It would also fit into the Eldar Hit-And-Run theme.

Making them completely immune to Knockback makes for some awkward situations when trying to engage them in melee combat. First of all, if (heavens forbid) the enemy got double Fire Dragons, you will not be able to engage all of them at once and their damage is not negligible at all. Second, get your Rangers nearby and simply Kinetic Pulse anything that gets into melee combat with them - one benefit of complete KBack immunity.

I do realize though that some factions have inherently better tools to deal with Fire Dragons than others. Orks get Stikkbomaz and Sluggas, Nids have Hormagaunts, Warriors, etc.

[Codex]

It's worth bearing in mind that "x got little to no attention prior to this change" is only indicative and cannot really be taken as strong evidence or lack thereof.

Case in point back in the good old days when 2v2 didn't exist, slugga swamp'em was amazing and stikks were t1 long range gen bashers, shootas were nowhere to be seen in the meta. Fast forward a month or two and the meta had shifted from a primarily slugga composition to a primarily shoota comp.

People who aren't familiar with this story might wonder if shootas got chain buffed, or slugga got nerfed while shootas got buffed, or whatever. But relic famously noted at the time that shootas hadn't changed since pre-there is only war, and in fact it was stikks that got changed hugely. Shootas had been amazing for ages but people simply didn't use them.

The moral of the story is that as humans we like to draw connections and causal links with just about anything. Thus the conclusion of "well this change is what pushed it over the edge" is very tempting and hard to resist. But for all we know fire dragons were under-utilised before and might be very viable even if we nerf it more. At the very least we should try to take into account the fact that people often try an under-utilised unit after it's buffed, and how often it's used is not equivalent to its balance state.

P.s this is a rant for sure but I wanted to warn people to the dangers of this kind of thinking. The game and the meta is in flux, and such thinking can be dangerous.

[Sub_Zero]

It makes very little sense balance-wise, and it makes no sense at all in terms of how the rest of the game works. Knockback immunity is reserved for slow, cumbersome units to add to their durability. Fire Dragons are a fast, lightweight unit. A shotgun blast will knock over a Nob but not a Fire Dragon. That's idiotic.

I like this point. The first thing to take away/rework (at best tie it to an ability with special conditions) is this idiotic kb-immunity.

[Sub_Zero]

Looks like I have an idea that makes the unit more balanced and at the same time adds one element that is clearly absent right now.

I think many will agree that having all those benefits as passive is a bit excessive for this cheap unit. My proposal is to add 2 additional abilities and tie the existing benefits to them, that means we make these benefits accessible via activated abilties that consume energy.

The first ability comes with an obvious name - "Dragon scale". It renders the unit immune to all sorts of knockback, grants +100 additional courage and reduces incoming damage by 30%. The ability depletes 15 energy upon activation and lasts as long as you have energy. Drains 4 energy per second. And so basically this ability augments standing power of this unit.

The second ability is here to increase their speed. Simple as that. Their basic speed should be 5.5, the ability enhances it to 6.5. Depletes 10 energy upon activation and drains 2 energy per second.

So here is what we have - all the benefits are divided (no more OP default dragons), the unit now needs to be utilizated really well (no more noob spams, only proper energy management will allow you to use this unit to its full potential), an Eldar unit finally looks like an Eldar unit (not a one trick pony with an ability that can be activated whenever you like).

This unit will start being a real threat once it gains more levels or additional help from the side is involved (WS's gates, spiritual rites, seer council, chanelling runes).

At level 1 you can activate the existing ability - 40 energy, you can activate the two new abilities - 25 energy and you will only be able to retain these benefits at once for just 6 seconds. So it will be crucially important to manage them properly. Under fire? Something threatens to knock them over? Suppression teams fire upon them? Then activate "Dragon scale". Need to chase down a vehicle? Need to run away from something? Activate their ability that enhances their speed. And if you need more firepower then you know what to do (the ability is already here).

I sincerely think that such an approach is great because it makes a unit from (as some say) an A-move unit to a need proper management to use unit.

Numbers can be discussed but I think that we must stick to this approach of balancing this unit.

P. S. If we are to make this unit energy intensive then we may as well buff their leader a bit so he slightly increases energy regeneration.

P. P. S. And make sure we have a clear visual indication for every ability so you know when not to knock them back, not to run after them, etc - possible counter-play.