Ogryns... to dam expensive?

[Dark Riku]

@saltychipmunk
Put those topping on a warm pancake and see how you like it.
For example, you don't get the same effect from those wargears with GM as you do with Ogryns.

Nobody is forcing you to buy orgyns, get them when they would benefit you.

[Forestradio]

If you had a replay

a what?

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9821269

This replay is completely disheartening lol.

Obviously I need to learn how to build heavy weapons teams against your ranged blo.... oh wait... LA...

it's balanced because the swarmlord can't cap

[CSM Emperor]

They can pretoct guardmen from attacking melee enemy squads with their ability, they can inflitrate using the inquisitor skill, become immune to suppression with the Lord General and reinforce too. They are very strong in good hands so they shouldnt be cheaper.

[saltychipmunk]

@saltychipmunk
Put those topping on a warm pancake and see how you like it.
For example, you don't get the same effect from those wargears with GM as you do with Ogryns.

Nobody is forcing you to buy orgyns, get them when they would benefit you.

Oooo good counter , props to you good sir, however i actually still consider guardsmen comparable.
Now i wont pretend that they are the same unit or even the same power level. one is clearly a disposable ranged unit that sucks in melee and one is an expensive melee unit that is not very disposable.

however most of the abilities mentioned that work with ogryns can still work with guardsmen. and are actually quite useful .
the suppression and knock back immunity actually makes a blob of guardsmen very effective at deterring jump units that rely on said disruption to stay alive.

many a good ig player will do some serious damage to units like asm. so much so that it is actually quite impressive

the grenade launcher allows the guardsmen to avoid dangers like plague clouds and bombs, which is very much important too their survival.

and while invisibility is not exactly amazing on guardsmen nor is the commissars small unit count heal wargear .. guardsmen are also better with other support abilities like execution and the like that take advantaged of their disposable nature.


in the end you are correct , no one is forcing me to buy ogryns. but the thing is i want to use them. I want to be able to use every unit a race has and feel like i have a rewarding unit for my investment. and the big thing that keeps me from buying units like ogryns or purifiers is not their performance, but their asking price.


maybe it is because i like team games too much and that is tipping their cost into unfavorable. but i do like these units as a concept . but that price , that huge chunk of power for an infantry unnit (regardless of armor type) is so difficult to justify on so many occasions

[Tex]

Here are some replays to chew on.

Please note that I don't even use easy mode/cookie cutter IG stuff like chimera and manticore and spotters (even though I am starting to incorporate spotters into my T2 after I get ogryns).

Anyway, here are a few of the many replays that will be incoming of Tex styled IG.

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=306207

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=306208

[enasni127]

Here are some replays to chew on.

Please note that I don't even use easy mode/cookie cutter IG stuff like chimera and manticore and spotters (even though I am starting to incorporate spotters into my T2 after I get ogryns).

1. thank you for the replays!!

2. if you think chimeras, manticores etc are easy mode stuff - why would people then play ogryns? wouldn't that statement support this thread and the meaning that ogryns are overpriced for what they give you? i mean, all your named "easy mode" units are cheaper than ogryns

3. i think it's almost useless to play ogryns AND chim/manti etc cause of the enormous engery costs.

[Tex]

Well I suppose I shouldn't have said "easy mode", but truly, a lot IG players believe that life is not possible without a chimera, and that setup teams and blobs can't be countered without a manticore (my most hated unit in the game due to a no fun design).

Using ogryns and a manticore together is probably one of the strongest things I can think of for T2. 190 power gets you a fully upgraded SHI melee squad and a long range damage and disruption tool that can open any gate for ogryns to get into combat, or to pincer kiting troops. I don't find that to be a massive power cost, but then again, I am a big spender in T2 so I'm probably a bad judge of this.

[enasni127]

Well I suppose I shouldn't have said "easy mode", but truly, a lot IG players believe that life is not possible without a chimera, and that setup teams and blobs can't be countered without a manticore (my most hated unit in the game due to a no fun design).

Using ogryns and a manticore together is probably one of the strongest things I can think of for T2. 190 power gets you a fully upgraded SHI melee squad and a long range damage and disruption tool that can open any gate for ogryns to get into combat, or to pincer kiting troops. I don't find that to be a massive power cost, but then again, I am a big spender in T2 so I'm probably a bad judge of this.

I watched your replays about an hour ago and I think you used your ogryns very well. I wish you would have played vs Chaos or maybe a Force Commander instead of Eldar cause IF IG players built Ogryns they will often use them vs Eldar cause they are a "standard tool" vs Wraith Guard and all in all quite useful in that special match up.

[Tex]

I actually did play a few against chaos with ogryns. I'll see if I can find them for you.

[Sub_Zero]

Watched the replay against Topi. He just fell apart in T2 and it wasn't because of ogryns. And he coulda bought that weapon option that allows to pin any unit in place and especially melee oriented ones. I don't see that replay as proving anything at all. Still ogryns are too damn expensive if we consider what this unit brings on the table - it is not a walker that would make his shuriken team useless and prompted a special AV-dedicated purchase that is not effective against infantry.

And the other replay is even worse in terms of proving anything. Was that walker lost due to the ogryns? Not at all. It was due that player's stupidity who left his walker unsupported when there was a really hard counter around - those stormtroopers. Had he played right your ogryns woulda been a disadvantage. Walker > ogryns and at the same time in most cases it is even investments! And there was a key unit in your roster to turn everything around - stormtroopers. if you make them AV then your ogryns will have an upper hand against a walker. If you make them AI then your ogryns won't suffer as much from shuriken platforms but it will leave them vulnerable against any walker. As it stands now it doesn't convince me that ogryns have a balanced cost.

[Adeptus Noobus]

You are missing the poing here. Tex just demonstrated that Ogryns and (double!!) Catachans can be fielded and used to great effect, without being completely bled dry of requisition and power by bleeding models (which was what the first post implied). Considering his main power army-wise was concentrated in the double Catachans and the Ogryns shows you that they can indeed have quite the impact on the field. Just look at how threatened the Falcon was by the presence of the Ogryns. Whenever they were not around, Ser Topi used his dominance in that situation and pressed his advantage, which completely turned around once the Ogryns were back to challenge it. They were also very threatening to the positions Topi was trying to establish on the map (mainly in the center) as they would charge forward with the LC and the help of Catachans or the Flare and disrupt the entire setup. Notice that they had quite the staying power with just the Aura of Discipline and did not bleed models. It does require carefully picking the right time to engage (micro - ohh noooo...) but it seems to have paid off.


P.S: Calling somebody stupid, will not make your argument look better if that is all the substance to it.

[Sub_Zero]

After this post I am done with this thread.

When I make such a big investment I expect that this investment will give me a unit that can walk over anything that my opponent has. This is exactly how any melee walker works. That is why it costs a ton. Ogryns cost a ton. And yet can be successfully dealt with just by T1 stuff. If we lower ogryns' initial cost that won't be the end of the world. This is all I want to say here.

P. S. If something is stupid then it is called stupid. In that very case it was really dumb of that player to manage his walker that way, who can argue that that move was smart?!

[Tex]

Even the best of the best can get baited into a trap. It happens to us all.

Topi had his eyes on landing a few juicy hits and bleeding me a ton of catachans. He also saw that I had a melta gun on my catas so he was engaging the current threat.

Should he have retreated his wraithlord? Absolutely.

Adeptus Noobus saw exactly what was demonstrated in this match. The ogryns didn't act like a walker even though they cost the same as a walker. That's because they aren't a walker. But they amount of damage they soaked (being supported by a super cheap wargear, same goes for the other IG heros as well tbh) and the amount of pressure they were able to exert was immense. Further, the catachans did an excellent job (or I with them, w/e) and again, were supported and positioned well. They barely bled and did some serious work.

So, just like how the original concept was "the bleed is real". I argue that "the bleed is real when the micro/strategic usage/positioning isn't".

[Atlas]

I saw the reps, but I'll believe it when I see it in tourney.

[Tex]

manticore will be on autobuild for tourney games. lol jk

I love how you barbed your statement ever so beautifully...

Yes Atlas, I know my tourney attendance hasn't been the greatest!

[ytimk]

very strong in good hands.

I don't mean to take sides on Ogryns yet, but personally as a complete noob this is one of the defining characteristics of the whole game - skill in micro and map awareness. Using things well can be very effective, but the skill curve seems a little daunting.

Talking 1v1 here. Team games hmmm more complications.

[Atlas]

manticore will be on autobuild for tourney games. lol jk

I love how you barbed your statement ever so beautifully...

Yes Atlas, I know my tourney attendance hasn't been the greatest!

Better watch your back bro. I put a bounty on Noisy for 3-0ing Yahya. If I recall correctly, you 3-0'd HolyHammer.

What to do with you.....
---------------------
Anyway, to actually weigh in on the Ogryns debate, I've always been a supporter of a minor initial cost reduction. In truth, that still hasn't really changed but I'd be willing to get them a slight performance reduction to compensate the cheaper cost. If forced to name particulars, I'd say that either the battle regeneration would be lowered back by .5 hp/s (which should be a revert to it's old value) or perhaps lowering the ripper chase fire dps from 15 down to 14/13 and the heavy melee dps from 35/50 (default/bonehead) to 30/45. So it would be cheaper, but not as effective from a murdering standpoint. I compare this exchange a lot to the changes that the manticores received last patch, with lower performance at lower cost.

Another thing I might ask for consideration is shifting some of the health on default ogryns to the bonehead. Currently it's 425 hp and 550 hp for the bonehead. Maybe we can consider shifting say 25 hp from default onto the boneheads making it 400 hp/650 hp? Would be the same overall HP but would lower the chances of the super expensive (and in some opinions mandatory) bonehead of bleeding. For a quick reference, regular sluggas have 100 hp and the nob has 350 hp. The bonehead hp ratio isn't nearly as offset, but I'm looking for the same sort of effect.

That being said, we definitely shouldn't do both at the same time. I think that would be way too many buffs on a unit that is pretty good as is imo. I'm mostly looking for a minor tweak.

Thanks for the reps Tex, they were nice to watch and they were definitely some different styles of IG vs Eldar I saw not just from you, but KAF and Topi as well.

[Tex]

I need a little bit of help seeing as how the subject is here.

I'm thinking ogryns aren't working too well against nids or WB orks. Feels like you really need to commit to winning the battle from range. I haven't resorted to buying a chimera yet, but I'm thinking that I might have to go in that direction.
In one case genestealers under melee synapse absolutely dominated my ogryns (I had no choice but to fight them in this case), and in the other case, I just wasn't winning enough battles with my GM's against fully upgraded shootas. Both situations look like they are handily solved by the chimera, which is a lot cheaper than my other conceivable options.

Anyway, any specific LC strategies against orks and nids would be appreciated. All other matchups I am handling with a high level of efficiency at this point (gogo aura of discipline + ogryns!).

[saltychipmunk]

you gave yourself your answer. use chimera.

both races you mentioned have access to movement control on their main ranged infantry. termas can cripple , shootas can suppress.
both races you mentioned also have access to legitimately good melee.

Even if we were to buff Ogryns. there will still be match ups that they are not supposed to be good at and they are many. Even if one were to profess the virtues of ogryns , khorne csm and purifiers the fact remains that they are not used often for several very compelling reasons.

[Sub_Zero]

Indeed, this is as obvious for me too.

[Codex]

Purifiers and ogryns I can understand since you buy them in t2. But if I still have 2 csm when I reach t2, unless I lose before then I buy them 100% of the time. Hear a lot of negative talk about Kcsm but I think they're amazing, especially for cost.

[Cyris]

Yeah, KCSM ability to transition so seamlessly with Chaos compositions is one of their strongest assets. I'd build Purifiers all day if I could upgrade SS into them, and not need to spend power reinforcing.

As for Ogryns? In 1v1 they are still an amazingly good purchase, and quickly get bonkers with the right support. Buffs to this unit would be a bad idea. I've played with and against them since this thread started, and they seem just fine. I think I mostly side with Atlas - if cost decrease is really needed, then reducing potency a bit would go a long way.

[Sub_Zero]

A favourable adjusment in cost isn't really a buff. A buff is something that enhances the performance of something. I would say that such an adjustment benefits the whole race - making a unit cheaper and thereby allowing to more easily get something additional. I will not accept any nerfs to current ogryns' performance, unless their cost is drastically changed.

[Crewfinity]

KCSM are amazing, and are a good example of a well-balanced T2 brawler unit. Purifiers wish they were as good compositionally as KCSM

I think that within the IG faction, ogryns underperform, but thats due more to other units and strategies being exceptionally cost-effective and safer to use. some price reduction of ogryns and a few small price increases on other core upgrades or units in T2 would put them in a really good place IMO.

[saltychipmunk]

Purifiers and ogryns I can understand since you buy them in t2. But if I still have 2 csm when I reach t2, unless I lose before then I buy them 100% of the time. Hear a lot of negative talk about Kcsm but I think they're amazing, especially for cost.

I think it is important to emphasize that I am only including kcsm in this discussion because their role is functionally similar to purifiers and ogryns.

Ie they counter similar things , and lose to similar things. That is not necessarily me saying they are bad. Rather I am saying that like kcsm.... ogryns have match-ups they aren't supposed to be good at. something that goes beyond a cost reduction.

In my mind kcsm are the best of the three specifically because of how they are acquired. But i think i said all of that in another thread already.

[Codex]

I know what you're getting at now, which is a fair point. At the same time, I disagree on one point. In an army full of speed 5 or lower, to have access to speed 6 shock troops who can cap efficiently, spread the map and flank, while also having some decent staying power and can be part of a predominantly melee composition, is utterly amazing and cannot be underestimated.

This is why I think the comparisons are largely unwarranted, even in the other thread. Case in point, examine Raptors. There are many reasons why one would consider them to be an inferior jump troop. They have tac hp, despite being a melee squad, and can bleed heavily, and despite their superior damage compared to ASM, there is no way that that would compensate for their relative frailty with simple dps in a vacuum. I mean imagine it, no one likes to leave tacs against any semblance of melee 1v1. Okay sure Raptors have 70 melee skill and a special attack but that means they lose to pretty much any melee squad 1v1, even ASM. Thus if you were to use Raptors as a solo linebreaker on point, they would get eviscerated and they would be a "terrible" unit.

However, this argument misses the context of the race. Raptors have fantastic synergy with melee heretics. After all, heretics are vulnerable to focus fire on approach, and getting a tic squad into the thick of it at around full hp can win an engagement on its own. The simplistic way to look at it is that tics counter melee and Raptors counter range blob, so the synergy is obvious. Look more deeply, and you'll see the ability to force off the opponent with a melee swarm not only mitigates the amount of damage that Raptors receive, thus offsetting their relative frailty, but also they make decent retreat chasers, which takes advantage of their superior melee damage. (+30% scales multiplicatively means that superior melee damage is great)

The same is true of KCSM. The main dissuader to KCSM as opposed to Raptors is big ranged blob or suppression. Suppression counters are plentiful by T2, so that's not a concern that KCSM have to be built to deal with. Ranged blob you can outmaneuver or flank with your superior speed. If you can somehow get your melee blob into their faces and force a retreat, KCSM are some of the best chase options that the slow slow race of Chaos have available to them. They benefit from being in a race that can have melee superiority in every engagement, which allows them to mitigate incoming damage and chase to maximal potential.

So this is the crux of the problem. I think the main difference between KCSM vs Purifiers and Ogryns is that KCSM are in a race that melee where plentiful. Thus they can take advantage of a melee swarm tactic and use them as shock troops, kinda like Light Cavalry in Rome: Total War. Equites are crazy fragile, but you never take fair fights. You just keep hitting their weak points, and then withdraw with superior speed before a protracted engagement hurts the cavalry too badly.

On the other hand, Purifiers and Ogryns are expected to lead the line in their respective compositions, since those races are almost completely ranged focused. Purifiers arguably (but only slightly) less so than Ogryns because the Brother Captain is a guaranteed disruptive melee presence that allows Purifiers to be more supported than Ogryns in melee.

So as always, context matters. A lot.

[saltychipmunk]

hmmm i do think you are right about kcsm. but i dont actually use ogryns or purifiers as line breakers or to "lead a charge" .

As I said before conventional melee units (ie melee units without some sort of jump) regardless of durability aren't very good at leading charges since they will get focused and they will get mushed. Now its technically a viable use for them ..(ie eat some damage for everyone else) but i think that throws away their damage potential since you will need to retreat them sooner because of it.

That is something I use non conventional melee for ... (jump units) jump units do less damage for their cost as well so it makes perfect sense for them to eat some damage or break a line so that your harder hitting conventional melee units get to stay in longer.

But they do make excellent brawlers something to keep the disruption gravy train going and to finish fights. I view their increased movement speed as a way to catch up too any disruption one throws at an enemy line. In my mind hitpoints only go as far as how well you are able to inhibit your opponent to do full damage.

and a kcsm tying up a ranged squad after a jump unit lands or a knockback ability executes will last much longer than a kcsm/purifier/ ogryn that takes 40% of their life as damage on the charge in.

On the other hand if we are talking smaller scale 1v1 engagements with a handful of units. then you could say that there is already less damage to worry about and they could .. kinda ... lead a charge.


naturally i also know that neither of those two races have jump units pre tier 3 or ever now, but they do have a ton of knockback based abilities which facilitate a similar outcome.

but that extra disruption also costs moneys... which sadly circles back to the asking price