T2 melee squad pricing issues

[Crewfinity]

At first I was going to add something to the current thread about ogryns, but I realized that what I was trying to say would be better off as a standalone topic.

T2 melee squads are in a weird place right now. in this post, I'm going to be talking about purifiers, bloodletters, ogryns, genestealers, and KCSM. In my mind, there are 3 classifications of melee squads that you can purchase in T2.

Squad Roles
the first of these is the HI variants, by which i mean purifiers and KCSM. due to their low model count, HI armor and power melee damage, high health pools, battle regeneration, and high speed/melee charges, the role these units seem designed to fill is that of bullying ranged infantry squads, soaking up ranged fire as they approach and then disrupting the back lines. They can also provide very light AV with their leaders.

The second type of T2 melee squad is ogryns, they're really in a category of their own. they do the same things as the above type of squad, but they are both more durable and better able to deal with vehicles, while being moderately worse in melee. In my mind they're kind of a mix between the above squad and a walker type unit.

the last type of T2 melee squad is the one that fills a counter melee role, namely genestealers and bloodletters. these guys have insane power melee damage and melee skill, and because their armor type is infantry, are much better suited at wating behind the front lines and then engaging enemy melee squads than leading the line or fighting ranged squads. These squads wipe the floor with the above two types because that is their role.

Of course there are other types of melee squads such as jump troops and dedicated melee like sluggas/shees/tics but here i'm primarily focusing on the T2 melee squads.

Current Issues

Here's my beef in a nutshell. I think that the first two types of squads, in particular purifiers and ogryns, are somewhat overcosted. The initial purchase price is extremely high, and they are very expensive to reinforce. they are a much less high-impact unit than a walker (less so in the case of ogryns), while only being priced a bit below them. CSM dont really have this issue because the initial purchase cost is hidden in T1, so it really only feels like a 70/30 purchase to get the mark. Exacerbating this issue is the fact that the counter-melee squads mentioned above are much cheaper, being only 400/40 for bloodletters or 425/45 for genestealers. These units also come with huge army synergies, becoming way better in a normal build with worship support and synapse for no additional resource cost. It is my opinion that purifiers and ogryns, as a result of a combination of these factors, are overpriced.



Stats & Unit analysis
lets look more closely at purifiers, MoK CSM, and ogryns, as these are the units that are most similar in my mind.

Purifiers cost 550/100 with the justicar, have 2050 HI health, and output 103.86 power melee and 45 heavy melee dps. they also have 40 piercing dps, battle regeneration, the awesome thunder hammer specials, a long charge range, and their abilities. they cost 75/13 to reinforce and have 12.75 upkeep.

MoK CSM cost 605/70 when fully upgraded (but 460/15 of this can be spent before T2) , have 1650 HI health, and output 147.69 power melee dps. they have 28.15 plasma and 6.49 melta dps, battle regen, and +1 speed. they cost 66 req to reinforce and have 9.6 upkeep.

There are a couple key points that these stats illustrate. the first one is the reinforcement cost. these units have similar roles and somewhat comparable costs, but MoK CSM cost NO power to reinforce while purifiers are 13 each. that's huge. the lower upkeep is also a big difference, especially because purifiers are being added to a T1 build already, while KCSM are transitional. although they have similar combat performance (higher health+abilities on purifiers, better ranged damage from KCSM) the resource cost to get these units are hugely different. with CSM already in your build you can make a T2 initial purchase of MoK for only 70/30 to have this unit out on the field, whereas purifiers require a massive resource dump of 450/75. KCSM also get to keep any levels they gained in T1, which is another big advantage they have over purifiers (along with a cheaper squad leader).

Ogryns cost 525/115 with the bone'ead, have 1825 SHI health, and output a beastly 155 heavy melee dps. they also have 60 piercing dps, battle regeneration, and their amazing ability. they cost 75/15 to reinforce and have 12.75 upkeep.

so basically compared to purifiers they get a little smaller health pool, a better armor type and damage type, and cost 15 power more. that seems reasonable and fair, and i like the pricing relative to purifiers. My issue is that these squads both seem overpriced if you look at KCSM, whose reinforcement cost is artificially low because of upgrade power requirements rather than initial purchase power requirements. Due to the fact that you have to save up to get a big unit in T2 that isnt a vehicle really puts these units in a worse place than they deserve. Furthermore, the squads that are designed to counter these units, namely cheap counter melee like genestealers/shees/letters/sluggas all have minimal power reinforcement costs, which throws off your economy even more.


To address these issues, I think that it wouldnt be crazy to reduce purifier costs to 450/55, and ogryns to 425/70. this would make their reinforcement costs 9 and 12 power respectively. while this is still a bit pricy, it is more manageable than 12 and 15 were.

[egewithin]

Because they are amazing units, that is why they are expensive. KCSM or Purifies can easly kill every ranged unit in T1 and T2. You can't ignore this, since it is a big matter of fact.

[Sub_Zero]

Before I post my opinion let me correct you - bloodletters have the standard melee skill which is 70 and most melee units have this melee skill. Only heretics (75 and no special melee attacks), genestealers (80 by default) and stikkbommaz (it is 80 for some reason) have a higher melee skill and there are inferior in terms of melee skill squads (hormagaunts, raveners, slugga boyz).

In short I probably agree with your proposal to decrease their costs. Because I like this point and I think likewise - Due to the fact that you have to save up to get a big unit in T2 that isnt a vehicle really puts these units in a worse place than they deserve.

Against GK you pretty much start stacking up anti-HI stuff once you hit T2, I think explanations aren't needed. IG is a race that can be effectively dealt with by using different AOE damaging sources. Zoanthropes, plasma devastators, stikkbommaz and similar T2 units are pretty effecient at that and most importantly greatly damage ogryns. This leads me to the point that most of the time neither purifiers, nor ogryns will be a tough target for your army composition. And that is why I also think that their costs aren't really justified. Overpriced units.
Though ogryns sometimes can serve as a vehicle by their impact due to their specific armor type - against 3x shoota boyz, against 3x termagaunts and multiple raveners, against flamer guardsmen spam.

They aren't a vehicle by their impact, they don't force to make your setup teams useless against infantry or other special purchases. So they must not have costs comparable to the costs of vehicles.

You mentioned khorne marines but didn't say anything about them in your conclusion. I am still inclined to think that their power cost is a little bit too high. Simply put - when you transform CSM into tzeentch marines you receive THE BEST ranged squad for sheer damage in the game ((is there any other ranged squad that does such tremendous damage to all sources and comes that early? that is why I consider them the best). When you transform CSM into khorne marines you receive just a decent melee squad that will most likely fail to beat another melee squad due to its armour type and lack of damage to normal infantry. For both you pay 30 power. And since khorne marines received some minor tweaks I would say the just cost for them is 25 power (I woulda said 20 power before the patch).

KCSM or Purifies can easly kill every ranged unit in T1 and T2.

I don't follow your logic here. ANY melee unit can kill every ranged T1-T2 unit. Or at least that is how it should be (hormagaunts come to mind who can't do shit to marines of all sorts). If you imply their natural resilience to piercing damage then what if I tell you that almost any melee unit has an ability to mitigate ranged damage? And the difference in costs between them are HUGE! And if there was a clearly defined concept in the game and rather a distinction between melee units - the ones who are designed to take ranged damage and mostly be effecient against ranged units and the ones who are designed to take on these "ranged damage takers" I would be fine with their significantly higher costs. But it is not like this in reality. The reality is that resilient to piercing damage units suffer from plasma/inferno/psychic and power melee A LOT.

[saltychipmunk]

Because they are amazing units, that is why they are expensive. KCSM or Purifies can easly kill every ranged unit in T1 and T2. You can't ignore this, since it is a big matter of fact.

can't ignore the fact that any ranged blob can flash liquify single melee units too regardless of armor type, which judging on how expensive units like kcsm, ogryns, and purifiers are , is a very likely scenario .


i almost never get these melee units for their durability because frankly damage sources in t2 balloon so much in potency that armor type and even to a lesser extent raw hit points play second fiddle to proper disruptive maneuvers. that leaves their retreat kill potential , which is really what these kind of squads are infact decent at for their respective races.

of all of units in gk, chaos , or even ig only these units have both the damage and to an extent the movement speed to have chase potential. a stupidly expensive version of banshees or slugga boys really. but as already pointed out. their armor type means they lose to counter melee and as i already said focused fire combined with the implicitly higher damage standard of tier 2 + means these units are brittle regardless.

that last part is what makes their cost so painful. ultimately that durability that we are paying for is very easy to overcome which just leaves a huge hole in your wallet for not nearly as much potency.

[Crewfinity]

Indeed. As I mentioned above, I take nonissue with current performance, only current power pricing on purifiers and ogryns. In both cases it just seems like too much investment for a unit that is bleeding 12 or 15 power per model, especially when you compare them to KCSM, a similar unit which bleeds no power at all, or other T2 melee squads, which cost around 4 or 5 power per model to reinforce. I don't think their versatility and upsides are great enough to warrant such a large resource dump as an initial investment, or the large reinforcement costs

[Ar-Aamon]

I fully support this case. Their cost are almost on the level of a dread.

[Tex]

I can get behind a small power cost reduction on purifiers.

I haven't had enough play time with them to support anything other than that for the moment.

I had a lengthy chat with Cyris about them yesterday, and it seems you guys are bringing up pretty much the same stuff:
1) total cost is similar to dreadnaught
2) impact is less than that of a cheap subcommander (IMO this is partially due to incorrect usage)
3) the bleed is real

I have said before though, I think using purifiers well is entirely based on one's play style (periphery striking is optimal for these guys). I wonder if after they get a deserved power cost reduction that this will be the end of it.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I am curious to hear, where exactly the problems with Purifiers lie, except for bleed and supposedly impact.

I imagine if one where to get Purifiers he would also consider getting the Warding Staff to support them. I also see no reason why one would not get the Terminator Librarian (unless T3 rush to Paladins/Terminators which is kinda dumb in a 1v1) and fully kit him out.
Now you can either use the Purifiers on the peripherals and easily win most engagements as the enemy will surely not send his heavy hitters to counter Purifiers on the periphery of the map unless he really needs these points. Though an effective strategy, it is also a costly one. You could get a Rhino and park it on the periphery as well which would force the enemy to send his dedicated AV to that point. Depending on the race, that is a more cost-effective way of denying caps on the outer reaches of the map (in my opinion).
Purifiers that have BC and TL support should be able to make a huge difference and cause huge amounts of disruption in enemy lines. Ward, Sanctuary, Shrouding, and Might of Titan should make sure that you can cause maximum damage. I guess it would go something like this: Teleport in and disrupt, Shrouding on the Purifiers to infiltrate and follow the BC into battle. Next the TL can move up also and support both the BC and the Purifiers with his abilities. All the while your very potent ranged army lays down some heavy fire. You could also run the Purifiers in first and then use Shrouding, as they would then benefit from the damage buff.

What do you guys think?

[Sub_Zero]

And again the same talk about other units and additional wargear to maximize their effeciency. IT IS RESOURCES AS WELL! If I can afford to spend my resources on more things then I will win. We all know that perfectly. But the cost for what we get is blatantly stupid, this is what discussed and not the effecient usage or synergies.

Imagine if slugga boyz had a greater cost (like 25 for burnas and 45 for their leader and more req indeed). Would you argue they are a bad unit in terms of performance? Because you can buff them with your warboss, heal them with your mekboy, hide them with your knob, you can heal and explode them with your painboy, you can use that weirdboy and that cheap ass orky transport. I don't get this talk at all! Why do you even mention all these synergies when I say that 45 power (the very cost for what we get) for their nob leader (even though he is mega strong) is TOO MUCH?!

And whenever you spend tons of resources to make purifiers better I spend comparable amounts to fuck your buffed purifiers. With slugga boyz, painboy and a trukk. They won't do shit to that. If they chase a wartrukk they will allow slugga boyz to hit them hard without any answer. If they focus on the wartrukk, that OP nob will live long enough to allow lesser green fucks to reinforce and eventually the slugga boyz will win.

Or just banshees with similar buffs. And etc etc etc.

I really don't get this talk about buffs and other help from the side when the discussion is strictly about what we get for a certain amount resources and whether the unit is worth these resources or not.

[Forestradio]

I am curious to hear, where exactly the problems with Purifiers lie

they aren't OP as operatives, needs to be fixed

[saltychipmunk]

I am curious to hear, where exactly the problems with Purifiers lie, except for bleed and supposedly impact.

I imagine if one where to get Purifiers he would also consider getting the Warding Staff to support them. I also see no reason why one would not get the Terminator Librarian (unless T3 rush to Paladins/Terminators which is kinda dumb in a 1v1) and fully kit him out.
Now you can either use the Purifiers on the peripherals and easily win most engagements as the enemy will surely not send his heavy hitters to counter Purifiers on the periphery of the map unless he really needs these points. Though an effective strategy, it is also a costly one. You could get a Rhino and park it on the periphery as well which would force the enemy to send his dedicated AV to that point. Depending on the race, that is a more cost-effective way of denying caps on the outer reaches of the map (in my opinion).
Purifiers that have BC and TL support should be able to make a huge difference and cause huge amounts of disruption in enemy lines. Ward, Sanctuary, Shrouding, and Might of Titan should make sure that you can cause maximum damage. I guess it would go something like this: Teleport in and disrupt, Shrouding on the Purifiers to infiltrate and follow the BC into battle. Next the TL can move up also and support both the BC and the Purifiers with his abilities. All the while your very potent ranged army lays down some heavy fire. You could also run the Purifiers in first and then use Shrouding, as they would then benefit from the damage buff.

What do you guys think?

that kind of strategy is exactly why purifiers and ogryns are rare. it is too expensive. you spend so much money trying to justify a unit when every other strategy just uses that money to make good units better and later tiers available.

this is exactly why kcsm are the only routinely popular version of this unit type. they are the only one that is cheap enough to not need any justification.

kcsm dont need a libby , they dont need a warding staff or almost any support because they are a dirt cheap upgrade to the dirtiest and cheapest heavy infantry unit in the game with a dirt cheap reinforce cost. they don't break bank and still perform like champions. are they still limited in roll like purifier and ogryns are..

absolutely they are, but the fact that they dont break bank in any capacity renders that limitation entirely moot. Units that require extra hoops to jump through for the least versatility tend to be the least used units in the game.

[Cyris]

I see kindda 3 big problems with Purifiers, in the context of evenly matched 1v1 games. They each sortta bleed into the others, so some things I'm gonna say are a bit redundant.

1- Their stat line is basically KCSM, but costs a lot more. I can break down the particulars if someone wants, but the damage, speed and health are within striking distance from each other, and they share damage types and armor. Purifiers get a clear edge by having the Psychic Storm, but it's range is real short and cast time too long. Many fights with Purifiers will start with the squad standing still, getting whacked on while they cast, and smart enemy plays can just walk out of it. So for the stats of KCSM, they cost a chunk more and most importantly, reinforce for power. Further, by being a full T2 purchase (as opposed to an upgrade on a T1 unit) they will not have any XP (a VERY big deal for melee superiority squads who more or less need to have equal or higher melee skill) and do not bring any "transnational" play to GK since they fully block up your HQ while building. A single melee unit does not suddenly give GK a melee composition, so they are largely relegated to counter-initiation or flanking (thanks Tex!) By contrast, KCSM can combo with tics and raptors from T1, as well as a T2 melee unit to get full on rushdown. Also important, KCSM can pick up their upgrades in drips and drabs, spreading the cost out for when you can afford it, as opposed to waiting for one big initial purchase.

2- HI is already countered. As opposed to Ogryns who bring a wholly new armor type to IG's T2, Purifiers are the same HI that is the backbone of GK. Any reasonably skilled opponent is already going to have tools well on the way to dealing with these guys when they come out.

3- Large investment for minimal AV. This addresses your point specifically Noobus. For almost the cost of a dreadnaught, you can get a melee squad that's equivolent to KCSM. Meh. For almost the cost of two dreadnaughts, you can combo them with a libby with upgrades and a Warding staff. I will fully admit that by this point, they have become a fairly effective melee blob. Better then 2 melee dreads? Debatable (I'd say no). But the trick is, you've now lost to any vehicle play your opponent did in T2. GK lack transitional AV (Rhino is not 1v1 viable, SS psycannon is barely sufficient to be called soft AV) so most of my matches see me focusing purely on T2 units that either have AV (VA) or can (purg, Dread). for instance, my match against Kvek in the MRT I got Purifiers in T2... and was thoroughly punished by melee dread. My bleed was real, and it was a struggle to get AV out. Had I simply gone VA or purg (prolly both), I would have been fine.

Are purifiers "worthless"? No. But the niches where they can be used are real small, and I've still had maybe only 1 game where looking back, they were the right choice. Against melee? Melee dread, purg or Libby. Against vehicles? VA, purg or las-rhino. Doing fine? Upgrades on IST / BC. Have already won the game in T1 and wanna close out? Dread.... and maaaaybe Purifiers.


Anyways, I'll be the first to admit I'm not the best with melee rushdown builds. I honestly am hoping Tex or other players can mess around with Purifiers and show me how horribly wrong I am I think my one liner for why I don't think this unit pulls it's weight would be this: GK T1 doesn't allow the space for a unit like Purifiers to transitionally fit, and in a vacuum the unit is over costed for it's stats. I think that the unit could remain almost entirely unchanged but become relevant if GK roster changes around it. It badly needs a power cost reduction I think, perhaps some tweaks to psychic field and maybe even swap out the Justicars heavy melee weapon for power melee or splash or something and really focus it as a melee squad.



Postscript: Some numbers

Purifier: 450/75 + 100/25 = 550/100
renf: 75/13
upkeep: 51
health: 2050
speed: 5 (enhanced charge?)
45 damage/ 34 dps
+Psychic Field and Purification

KCSM: 400 + 60/15 + 70/30 + 75/25 = 605/70
renf: 67
upkeep: 39.6
health: 1650 (bonus regen)
speed: 6
48 damage/ 36 dps

Notes:
Initial costs and damage are comparable. Purifiers win out on health, but lose on speed (though the "increased charge range" is hard to quantify). Upkeep and reinforce disparities are massive.

Ogryns: 425/90 + 100/25 = 525/115
renf: 75/15
upkeep: 51
health: 1825
speed: 5
35 damage/ 35 dps (leader is 50/50)
+Charge, SHI, Heavy melee, 15 ranged dps per model

Notes:
For 200 less HP, Ogryns get SHI and Heavy melee. Remember that SHI take 30% less damage from melee damage and another 37% less damage then HI against piercing, while adding no additional damage from plasma or power melee. Charge and field are comparable, as is initial cost, reinforce upkeep and speed.

[saltychipmunk]

well technically purifiers are better than kcsm. they have way more hp they have more abilities and they are cooler looking.
but the issue is that those stats are not strong enough to make a notable difference in practice.

have a tac meleeing purifiers? the tacs will die, have them fighting kcsm? the tacs will die.
have a blob of ranged units? the purifiers will die, have a blob of range units? the kcsm will die.
in fact you can say kcsm embody the very concept of "just enough"

so it is not a performance issue in the sense that their av isnt high enough or their durability isnt high enough. for their roll they both have enough.
neither should crush tanks, neither should be a walking army. they arent nobs or terminators.
The big thing is all about how easy it is to fit them into an army.

And that is something that KCSM just destroy in. it is not even a close match. i can wholly say that kcsm are twice as cost efficient than purifiers.

i note the stats of the previous post , this could be the best example of why we should not be looking at on paper costs comparisons

kcsm are technically req heavy , heavier than purifiers. however if a chaos player chooses a build with csm in mind , then the CSM as a unit can often already pay for themselves in t1. The very fact that csm can be upgraded to kcsm is the effective equivalent of writing off 400 req on that unit.

honestly , if we made purifiers an upgrade to the strike squad... the issue with purifiers as being cost inefficient would be over.


We cant possibly make them cheap enough (in terms of power) as a stand alone unit to get around their brutal bleed and extreme upfront cost.
unless we literally just make them a 450 req unit with a 100 req 100 power justicar/ purifier-ify upgrade.

[Cyris]

i note the stats of the previous post , this could be the best example of why we should not be looking at on paper costs comparisons

kcsm are technically req heavy , heavier than purifiers. however if a chaos player chooses a build with csm in mind , then the CSM as a unit can often already pay for themselves in t1. The very fact that csm can be upgraded to kcsm is the effective equivalent of writing off 400 req on that unit.

You've been saying some good stuff salty, but I wanna full stop here and pick a bone. As a numbers guy, it is incredibly frustrating to see numbers dismissed as unimportant. I'm equally frustrated by people who look only at stats and make large declarations, numbers are but tool for improvement, as is watching replays, thinking of build orders or reading these forums. The numbers show one level of reality, and they must be integrated into the other levels to make the whole of your understanding or experience more accurate and useful.

That said, the numbers you just disparaged completely contradict the statement you follow with. KCSM are NOT req heavier then purifiers at all, except in the most technical of senses (compare total costs). When both fully upgraded, KCSM cost exactly 55 more req. But at 8 less req per model to reinforce and a full 12 less upkeep, this difference is minuscule. I can confidently say that the two units had functionally the same req cost, while purifiers cost significantly more power (50% more initial cost, and infinite more reinforce costs).

[saltychipmunk]

i note the stats of the previous post , this could be the best example of why we should not be looking at on paper costs comparisons

kcsm are technically req heavy , heavier than purifiers. however if a chaos player chooses a build with csm in mind , then the CSM as a unit can often already pay for themselves in t1. The very fact that csm can be upgraded to kcsm is the effective equivalent of writing off 400 req on that unit.

You've been saying some good stuff salty, but I wanna full stop here and pick a bone. As a numbers guy, it is incredibly frustrating to see numbers dismissed as unimportant. I'm equally frustrated by people who look only at stats and make large declarations, numbers are but tool for improvement, as is watching replays, thinking of build orders or reading these forums. The numbers show one level of reality, and they must be integrated into the other levels to make the whole of your understanding or experience more accurate and useful.

That said, the numbers you just disparaged completely contradict the statement you follow with. KCSM are NOT req heavier then purifiers at all, except in the most technical of senses (compare total costs). When both fully upgraded, KCSM cost exactly 55 more req. But at 8 less req per model to reinforce and a full 12 less upkeep, this difference is minuscule. I can confidently say that the two units had functionally the same req cost, while purifiers cost significantly more power (50% more initial cost, and infinite more reinforce costs).

well then let me clarify.
I am not outright dismissing the numbers, what i am saying is that this case is a perfect case in which just looking at numbers alone will very much lead you astray. As is the case with most of these comparisons between a fresh unit and a unit defining upgrade there are a ton of numbers not displayed here. so looking at just the on paper numbers for these units is like looking at an iceberg, the tip is bloody tiny... it is the thing under the water that will sink your ship.

you need to factor that csm are a t1 unit that have an entire tier's worth of time to contribute to a match, win a few engagements , blow up a gen farm , decap points .. etc.
you need to factor in the levels they can get (or i should say level , because it is usually just 1 level)
you need to factor in the idea that the chaos player is playing specifically to transition the squad into kcsm later , in which case in the mind of that chaos player that 400 is bought and paid for in t1.

to me when i go double csm and make one a kcsm, i do not ever view that upgrade as a 650 req unit. rather i view it only as 30 power upgrade because i leverage my build for such an event.

and finally you need to consider the idea that since kcsm are an upgrade it does not change your pop or up keep where as purifiers are always a + 15 to 20. You can try to accommodate that by having a lighter t1, but then you are weaker in t1 , or you can take the massive economy hit in t2.

chaos worries about neither situation and it is liberating.


most of those things aren't tangible numbers , but they have huge consequences that numbers alone will not match.


i cant emphasis enough how massive an advantage having the mark as an upgrade is.

kcsm are technically req heavy on the initial buy in , i say this in only the most technical senses. I am aware they are very cheap to reinforce.

[Crewfinity]

yall are both making the same points, just using the data differently to come to those conclusion


anyway, after playing with purifiers some more I have some proposed changes to the unit:

One thing that I think could go a long way towards making purifiers a less punishing unit to the GK economy is making their initial stats worse with a smaller cost, and giving them a 'Nemesis Focus' upgrade that gives them their current performance, with a smaller reinforce cost. Basically right now purifiers are a big inital cost and then large upkeep and reinforcement costs, an upgrade would help a lot to hide these costs like KCSM.


Proposed Changes
*purifiers cost reduced from 450/75 to 400/45
*purifiers now deal 27.69 power melee dps and 6.31 piercing dps
*purifier justicar now deals 36 heavy melee dps and 13.06 piercing dps
*purifiers now have "nemesis focus" upgrade which increases their damage by 25%, costs 60/20 (brings them back up to current values)
*purifier justicar cost reduced from 100/25 to 90/25


so the new inital cost is 400/45 with reinforcement costs of 67/8, a much more manageable bleed rate. fully upgraded they would now cost 550/90 rather than 550/100, but although its only a 10 power decrease in total price it would make them much more attractive since they have a lower initial purchase cost. with the transition this patch to a more light infantry-based composition in T1, bleeding can be a lot more harsh in preventing large-req purchases like purifiers or purgation, smaller inital price tags would help a lot in opening up alternative styles of play. having the nemesis focus upgrade lets you buy purifiers faster as an initial T2 purchase, and then upgrade to full performance at your leisure, giving you the opportunity to invest in AV rather than spending all your resources on purifiers just to get countered by a fast bloodcrusher or something

[Sub_Zero]

I would be fine with that

[saltychipmunk]

I would actually be curious of how they would perform upgradless with those changes. strictly speaking their combined dps would be similar too the brocap with a halberd.


what about ogryns? they too fall into the same category and suffer the same issues . high asking price , punishing upkeep

[Crewfinity]

their damage output as it is large enough that even with my proposed reductions they can still perform well at engaging ranged blobs or units. to properly go toe-to-toe with other melee units you would definitely want the upgrade and the justicar though.

I dont play enough IG to really feel confident proposing any changes or making any judgement calls on unit performance, but it seems to me that ogryns could potentially benefit from a similar change. however, there are several differences between the factions that make purifiers weaker as a purchase. for instance, ogryns provide much harder AV than purifiers do, and AV upgrades or units should have a fairly big premium attached to them, and their SHI armor type also changes the IG composition much more than purifiers do to GK. also I think that IG hero synergies support ogryns much better than do GK's options, since hero upgrades are inexpensive compared to the warding staff (150/50) or librarian (350/65). they also have access to on-field reinforcement, which can be a pretty big deal. So while I think an upgrade cost could be a viable way to address their high cost and bleed to performance ratio, they don't need it quite as badly as purifiers do.

[Broodwich]

Could just make them an upgrade for SS like i've been saying for a while. Choice is psybolts/snare/psycannon vs a beefier kcsm with a nice ability. Fulfills a similar role, and makes them a relevant upgrade

[Crewfinity]

I like that idea too
would make double SS builds a lot more reasonable to go for

[Ar-Aamon]

Too similar to chaos. I like initially cost reduction with the Nemesis Focus upgrade much more. Would be perfectly solve the issue with the high reinforcement costs for Purifiers.