Dawn of Tanks

[ytimk]

How do people feel about the recent speed boosts?
No lead, just curious if/how it has impacted people. Anything to say about tanks in general/any specific?
Tank chat .

[Tex]

Tanks have always been strong, yet thankfully, only the Leman Russ is a no brainer unit. The speed increase only serves to make them stronger.

I remember when I read that tank speed was going up I just sighed and went "indirect nerf to nobs" lol.

[enasni127]

i don't think it's so bad. the leman russ is still the slowest tank and kiting still works the same way. as an ig player i always knew that chasing tanks down with ogryns doesnt work and so i used lascannons or stormtroopers. as ork i would probably go for tankbustas and use my nobs vs other stuff

[DandyFrontline]

Well, i think it's a great change in many ways. First of all - in my personal honest opinion tanks shouldnt be able to chased down so easily with melee units. Tanks should be counter to Nobs, Terminators, Ogryns and other stuff, and not the other way. Tanks are t3 expensive units, and should be able to do things. + tanks always had huge problems with pathfinding and target priority, so speed increase will somehow compensates it. The second, now it's more balanced between Leman Russ and other tanks. Leman Russ is the most fatass machine with the longest RoF and RoS (with upgrades ofc) and with really high dps, so the other tanks had really bad time with it (specially FirePrism that have such a low HP (and LootedTank)), now LR got a weakness to other tanks - lower speed, so it give great chances for them against it.

[enasni127]

Well, i think it's a great change in many ways. First of all - in my personal honest opinion tanks shouldnt be able to chased down so easily with melee units. Tanks should be counter to Nobs, Terminators, Ogryns and other stuff, and not the other way. Tanks are t3 expensive units, and should be able to do things. + tanks always had huge problems with pathfinding and target priority, so speed increase will somehow compensates it. The second, now it's more balanced between Leman Russ and other tanks. Leman Russ is the most fatass machine with the longest RoF and RoS (with upgrades ofc) and with really high dps, so the other tanks had really bad time with it (specially FirePrism that have such a low HP (and LootedTank)), now LR got a weakness to other tanks - lower speed, so it give great chances for them against it.

sounds reasonable except the part where the leman russ has really high dps and long range. i think it has wether high dps (executioner) OR high range (vanquisher) i doesn't have both and as far as i remember lascannon predators have higher dps and better rates of fire but in return less health. it's like the russ is a defensive tank and predators are offensive chasers and it's cool this way

[DandyFrontline]

Well, i think it's a great change in many ways. First of all - in my personal honest opinion tanks shouldnt be able to chased down so easily with melee units. Tanks should be counter to Nobs, Terminators, Ogryns and other stuff, and not the other way. Tanks are t3 expensive units, and should be able to do things. + tanks always had huge problems with pathfinding and target priority, so speed increase will somehow compensates it. The second, now it's more balanced between Leman Russ and other tanks. Leman Russ is the most fatass machine with the longest RoF and RoS (with upgrades ofc) and with really high dps, so the other tanks had really bad time with it (specially FirePrism that have such a low HP (and LootedTank)), now LR got a weakness to other tanks - lower speed, so it give great chances for them against it.

sounds reasonable except the part where the leman russ has really high dps and long range. i think it has wether high dps (executioner) OR high range (vanquisher) i doesn't have both and as far as i remember lascannon predators have higher dps and better rates of fire but in return less health. it's like the russ is a defensive tank and predators are offensive chasers and it's cool this way

Well, Vanquisher provide really high dmg to tanks (150) while predator lascanon got 220, but against LR that have 35% dmg resistance it's only 143 (but should not forget that LR got explosive dmg and predator armor piercing damage but i dont know the modificators). I dont know the real number of Rate of Fire, but i believe predator shoot a little bit faster. But with superior Range of Fire LR defiantly wins. + we should not forget about Russes close range lascanon with 65 armor piercing damage.

[PhatE]

It's been a nice change in my opinion. It's less of an annoyance now if you have multiple tanks and you're having trouble moving them around.

Tanks have always been strong, yet thankfully, only the Leman Russ is a no brainer unit. The speed increase only serves to make them stronger.

I remember when I read that tank speed was going up I just sighed and went "indirect nerf to nobs" lol.

It's ok though. After 3 upgrades, a painboy and a speed upgrade they can catch them. All tanks shall fall!

[saltychipmunk]

frankly tanks were always too risky and too micro heavy. screw up once and there would be no way the tank would get away from an av unit quick enough to survive.

this lead to units like nobs or even commanders with melee heavy weapons simple afk chasing the tanks till they blew up.... stupid on paper... but the fact that it works most certainly suggested an issue.

now that the tanks are more mobile it more or less makes rooting them to the ground a more important part to taking them out.

all in all it was a good change

[Sub_Zero]

As long as tanks remain so unreliable on the move I will never perceive them as good units. And you need to move these things constantly. I pay for a platform that can move to either side and cause damage to any target of my choice. And in reality I get a thing that ALWAYS disobeys my orders (I know that is not that easy to solve) and sometimes when I fail just a little bit to properly choose its path it shows its back and that often spells its doom.

Why do I say about that? Well just want to remind about my idea yet again - special button that disallows your tank to fire on the move and turn its cannon, you basically have to stop and make a shot. Pretty much like a T2 sentinel works. There's been a countless amount of cases in my experience when I killed melee walkers (by retreating and firing) and when I killed other tanks (by pushing forward and firing). And there's been a countless amount of cases when my tanks couldn't do these things. And that is a super-expensive T3 unit against a cheap T1 unit with a T2 upgrade. I expect tanks to be like sentinels in terms of that - the reliability. Now they are only good when you don't move them which happens rarely.

I would love if you made it a priority to invent one for the next patch. As well as finally making artillery pieces adequate! They shouldn't act when they just see any target. Imagine how retarded it would be if infiltrated scouts opened fire at the first spoted target? That ruins the whole thing. And pdevs/noise marines/d-cannons do the same. They are like noobs in a team of experienced players, do stupid things and you can't influence on that (well you can but it costs you). I also think that any deployable teams shouldn't be firing upon anything when they just see that. Each shot of this kind of unit is very important since they are so easily countered because of their low health and immobility. Like why the fuck would my AV-team start firing at infantry when there is a vehicle present but not in the firing arc yet? That takes away their position, well I hope you all understand.

[Codex]

Sure tanks are a bit awkward to micro but that's like saying sentinels suck. In my book, the reality of tanks is that they're glass cannon by design, and now have excellent mobility to boot. In most cases they're long range fire support with great continuous dps. This makes them fantastic against super heavy infantry squads like terminators, and short range or melee super units. In fact, they're often your best choice against such units. On the other hand they are good vs everything so will trade favourably against other units unless there's a whole lot of av on the field.

The great thing about tanks is that you can always justify buying them. They hard counter any walker that is hanging about from t2, and they also do extremely well against super units and slow tanky t3 infantry. If these are the ideal targets for a tank, it makes me wonder how you're positioning the tank such that its unreliability in pathing means it dies all the time.

With superior speed it's basically in a great position to free fire at the things it counters and retreat from threats before they reach your tank. If you know they have access to infiltrated threats scout for the tank using your detector. This will also allow you to maximise the tank's attack range.

[Sub_Zero]

My complaint is not about its bad survivability, not about its weaponry, but about its functionality when I want to exploit this unit's mobility to my advantage.

And precisely in these cases - when I chase after a target and the tank starts randomly rotating its cannon and choosing other targets screwing up everything and quite possibly allowing the real target to slip away or another case when that any walker that is hanging about from t2 is after your tank but not only that, some other units mess around and mess all the shots of my tank because I only care about moving backwards to avoid damage and as a result the walker might happen to avoid damage from my tank.

You like didn't notice my example about sentinels and how RELIABLY they work in these situations and how a simple invention of a button to make a tank similar to a sentinel would help greatly to solve this issue. Once again - this button shuts down your tank's ability to fire on the move and stops its cannon rotation, so you have to stop your tank and make a shot to any proper for you target and as a result you don't waste shots and priceless time to rotate the cannon to the right side. Caeltos said that it would be doable to make. I am just using my chance to remind about that yet again.

[Cyris]

I don't like the change, I think tanks were awesome, and are now only stronger. I personally think almost all of them were no-brainers before (or could be compositionally manipulated into being no-brainers). Thankfully it was a small speed boost, but I'd rather it never happened.

[Codex]

As long as tanks remain so unreliable on the move I will never perceive them as good units.

That's what I take issue with. They're amazing regardless of their unreliability on the move. That's all I'm saying. Feel free to coax Caeltos to do whatever.

[Sub_Zero]

Well let's agree to disagree then. One of the main aspects of this unit is broken because of that very problem and purely because of that I can't consider tanks excellent. Just as I can't consider excellent artillery pieces that fire automatically. Just as I wouldn't consider jump units excellent if they disobeyed my orders to attack whatever targets after a successful jump (fortunately it is not a real issue, just giving another case of deficiencies of certain units that don't/wouldn't really let them be fully functional). Just as I cannot consider mines to be excellent because units that detect walk over them like nothing and allow others to do the same and that is complete BS I can't put up with (not really a technical deficiency, just another mechanic I don't like, this is not a good example, not in line with the others).

And that your last line, that is annoying. Instead of words of support (are you not interested in fixes to certain deficiencies that have been there since the creation of the game?) you write that lovely verb, pfft.

Though I understand what you mean and my opinion doesn't differ from yours in that regard (that tanks do this and that and all these things make them good overall in spite of the issue you don't really see as an issue it seems).

[Codex]

In all honesty, all I try to do is keep discussions going in a decent way and keep it intellectually honest. (I'm not saying you're being intellectually dishonest btw.)

I haven't felt like I've genuinely made any significant change to the ideas of Caeltos, and I doubt that now I am less active and reasonably stressed from a full time job that I'm going to make any significant suggestions to change the mod. That's just how it is. In the meantime, I enjoy the forums, so I hang about. Sorry if that comes across as largely apathetic or resistant to change.

On the other hand, you're right. I'm not going to say that I'm not open to changes that would fix functionality. In fact, this logic applies to every bug in the game, if it's broken it just is by definition. But broken isn't the same as having or not having utility, and broken isn't the same as balanced or not balanced.

The reality is that the role that tanks fill makes them irreplaceable, in team games and in 1v1. It's really rare that a unit type is as universal across game modes as tanks. Terminators and Super units do not often appear in 1v1, for good reason. 1v1 is much more mobility and map control orientated, even in lategame. Meanwhile, Terminators and Super units and the like are much more common and preferred in 3v3 for a variety of reasons.

Tanks, on the other hand, occupy that versatile role jack-of-all-trades lategame purchase across all modes. And I personally feel that the speed buff that it received would not have been given nor warranted if vehicle pathing in DOW2 was perfect: the way tanks have been implemented the balance of those units have already accounted for its dodgy pathing when giving it value. If they were as you say, and simply broken, many top level players would not be compelled to buy them in a variety of situations. That's because tanks are good, in my opinion anyway. If in some amazing fairytale universe tanks were fixed forever due to a complete redesign of how it works, then I would ask for tank nerfs, because the stats and firepower and mobility they have for a very reasonable asking price is fantastic. Not to mention that mobile glass cannons are highly prized across a wide variety of games and game modes.

That's my two cents anyway.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Just wondering, why is a tank acting as a glass cannon? Those two words couldn't be more contradictory even if one was placed in heaven and the other in hell.

[DandyFrontline]

Just wondering, why is a tank acting as a glass cannon? Those two words couldn't be more contradictory even if one was placed in heaven and the other in hell.

Sad but true. Tanks should get atleast melee resistance

[Sub_Zero]

Just wondering, why is a tank acting as a glass cannon? Those two words couldn't be more contradictory even if one was placed in heaven and the other in hell.

That is actually true. Tanks aren't "tanks" at all. Dreadnoughts are "tanks" - no rear armor, more HP. I have never had a problem taking out a tank. Whenever my opponent gets a tank and I am still in T2 I don't get worried that much. Almost any faction's T2 can counter tanks. Which is kinda kinda... I am not sure that this conception T1 <<< T2 ≤ T3* is like the most well thought out thing about this game.

*Impossible to win with T1 army against T2 army, quite possible to win with T2 army against T3 army.

[Wise Windu]

Technically, the term "tank" means an armored and heavily armed vehicle on treads. The word's use as a damage sponge comes from the huge amount of small arms fire it can soak up. That doesn't mean that weapons specifically created to penetrate its armor won't deal much damage. Its online usage is more of a slang term.

[Dark Riku]

Dreads have rear armor too

[Sub_Zero]

Dreads and rear armor? Nonsense unless you prove it.

[Wise Windu]

Technically, they do. But it takes the same damage as the front armor

[Sub_Zero]

When I say "rear armor" I imply vulnerabilty. Dreadnoughts do not have this vulnerabilty. Why even bring it here in balance section where it really bears no sense? If dreadnoughts had wings but couldn't use them would that be wise to ever mention that?

Imagine if I was talking about ability to fly dreadnoughts lack and tanks have... "But dreadnoughts don't have wings and tanks do, that makes them mobile!"

And here someone makes a post - dreadnoughts have wings

I just can't get what this mention really gives except confusion for somebody.

For real - does this fact give us something? Because I don't know of any other mechanic regarding rear armor besides the increased damage. Maybe there is some important thing I don't know of. But as it stands now that information's value is zero (for a topic in balance section that has nothing to do with reality, fluff and whatever thing that is not related to game's balance).

[Wise Windu]

Maybe he thought they did take more damage that way? It isn't an unreasonable thought. Before the Codex was largely filled out, the amount of misinformation on the forums was unreal. Seriously, it's why I made my signature There's still information on the game that isn't really publicly available anywhere and doesn't really fit in the Codex. It's a lot of minor stuff and tedious to write down, so it's pretty easy to not have it or believe something you've heard previously.

[bibotot]

Tanks in dawn of war have a lot of pathing issues. Were not for the fact the availability to counter them is lower than Company of Heroes, these units would be completely screwed. But I am serious here. A tank in the tabletop can move faster than average infantryman, so this is a good thing right now.