Guardsman Commissar Upgrade is too good.

[Atlas]

I don't really have a "main" but I've probably spent the majority of my 1v1 time as Inq. I would always say the 75/20 commi upgrade was damn good for what it gave you, and it pains me to say this but making it 85/15 has only strengthened my opinion on it.

The Commissar himself has equivalent stats to a SM sargeant(only being I instead of HI) except for the fact that he is a last-to-die model and gives an amazingggggg ability in Summary Execution AND an extra guardsman per reinforce for free. In addition, whatever Space God that takes my resources is willing to trade me the guy for 85/15, which is cheaper than a bag of peanuts on the airplane.

I think that the upgrade is overperforming for it's cost and that the next patch should possibly either increase the cost of the upgrade or lower his abilities as a model. Thoughts?

[karnakkardak]

Well, in response, tier 1 guardman weakest infatry in this game. Even temaguant win crippling poison upgrade(when guardman with sergent)

[karnakkardak]

tema's dps 48.96 upgraded cripling posion>>guard with sergent dps 36.92

[Tex]

Tone down over performing T2 GM's and I will support a price reduction to the "lesser used" IG stuff, top of that list being Ogryns.

[karnakkardak]

Tone down over performing T2 GM's and I will support a price reduction to the "lesser used" IG stuff, top of that list being Ogryns.

GOOD

[Adeptus Noobus]

Atlas, could you maybe be a bit more precise as to why it is too good. It always came with the extra model for reinforcements and I believe the stats were always comparable to that of a Tac-Sergeant (iirc).

[Atlas]

Atlas, could you maybe be a bit more precise as to why it is too good. It always came with the extra model for reinforcements and I believe the stats were always comparable to that of a Tac-Sergeant (iirc).

Yes, and the Tac Sergeant costs 75/25 and is not last to die. I think the Commissar upgrade was borderline good at 75/20 but definitely crazy at 85/15. Much like the Ogryns thread, it's more a matter of how much it costs relative to how much it gives you. If we don't change the stats of the Commissar himself, we need to change some other aspect like how much he costs. We get plasma guns for 90/25 and we can probably price the Commissar at a rate pretty close to that.

[DandyFrontline]

Serg got 3 times more HP, better melee skill and HI armor that is huge advantage. Never saw full upgraded GM as overperforming.

[Tex]

2 fully upgraded GM squads supported by a chimera are so powerful that they can even deter light vehicles. GM's seem somewhat normal when you don't use a chimera (which I haven't been), but the 3 for 1 reinforcement at such low cost is just balls out crazy in terms of sustained DPS.

Also, once I have my commissar up, I melee stuff with my GM's like crazy. He does really good damage.

[Dark Riku]

Well, in response, tier 1 guardman weakest infatry in this game. Even temaguant win crippling poison upgrade(when guardman with sergent)

That would be nice if it were true ... Scouts come to mind.

[saltychipmunk]

Let's just say there is a reason i chose to bring up the guardsmen squad in my thread about ork squad leaders being overpriced ( though i am not going to debate about that thread again here, that matter is settled).


as for the fella saying the serge for sm has 3 times the hp. you do realize you need to count the upgrade as the commissar AND the two dudes he brings with right?

his hp is 340 not 140 (because two gms is 200 hp) and his damage is 15 + 8, not 15 (two 4 dps gms) (assuming the 8 is not lumped into the 15 on the tool tip)

melee skill is nice , but gms are purposely bad in melee no upgrade will ever address that.
and heavy infantry armor can be a curse as much as it is a blessing when your whole race is heavy infantry.


But the balancing factor on gm squads is that the upgrades simply add models rather than improve the stats of present models , this means said squads are more or less always vulnerable to the same weakness regardless of tier . aoe .... many other light infantry squads either get a leader that has more health as a stand alone model or some upgrade to increase the durability of individual models .

[enasni127]

a big NO to gm nerfs and an even bigger one for comparing them with tactical marines in that way!

-GM die to AOE weapons of all kind in seconds and so need the commissar to at least survive (sometimes) - this is completely different for tacs

-GM lose models by far earlier and easier then tactical space marines and so I think the better reinforcing makes sense

-GM are ultra-shit in melee compared to almost any unit in this game

-The Commissars execute ability is no valid argument for a nerf in comparison to the tac sergeant who has his own ability which is quite useful in combat


Really, i've always seen the commi as some kind of life insurance cause gm with only a sergeant get instant-killed by SOOOO many abilities and weapons from t2 on

[Adeptus Noobus]

a big NO to gm nerfs and an even bigger one for comparing them with tactical marines in that way!

-GM die to AOE weapons of all kind in seconds and so need the commissar to at least survive (sometimes) - this is completely different for tacs

-GM lose models by far earlier and easier then tactical space marines and so I think the better reinforcing makes sense

-GM are ultra-shit in melee compared to almost any unit in this game

-The Commissars execute ability is no valid argument for a nerf in comparison to the tac sergeant who has his own ability which is quite useful in combat


Really, i've always seen the commi as some kind of life insurance cause gm with only a sergeant get instant-killed by SOOOO many abilities and weapons from t2 on

The intention of this thread is to find out wether the Commissar Upgrade is to good or not. It is not about Tacs vs GM.

GMs reinforce at 18 req per model (only if no Sergeant/Commissar) which means you will have to kill 4.x models to make up for one Tac model (75 req). Once the Sergeant is purchased that cost is basically 9 req/model since you get one for free every time you reinforce. That cost is taken down even further (6 req) once the Commissar is purchased because you now get two models for free every time you reinforce. You see where this is going. Getting down to only the Commissar+Sergeant doesn't even hurt that much because reinforcing them back to full model count costs only 60 req, which is less than one single lonely Tac model.

2 fully upgraded GM squads supported by a chimera are so powerful that they can even deter light vehicles. [...]

This is what it comes down to. Since they reinforce at such a high speed and dish out dmg consistently (god forbid they have plasma guns and you are playing HI races) you will have a hard time to deal with them in direct fire fights and will most certainly have to resort to AOE and hunting the Chimera because otherwise they will not be chased of the field. Who cares about a few lost models when they keep on pouring out of the Chimera like its Black Friday.

[enasni127]

This is what it comes down to. Since they reinforce at such a high speed and dish out dmg consistently (god forbid they have plasma guns and you are playing HI races) you will have a hard time to deal with them in direct fire fights and will most certainly have to resort to AOE and hunting the Chimera because otherwise they will not be chased of the field. Who cares about a few lost models when they keep on pouring out of the Chimera like its Black Friday.

seems like the only counter is pulling off the proper counter and biggest weakness of IG?! very op.... -.-'

[Adeptus Noobus]

This is what it comes down to. Since they reinforce at such a high speed and dish out dmg consistently (god forbid they have plasma guns and you are playing HI races) you will have a hard time to deal with them in direct fire fights and will most certainly have to resort to AOE and hunting the Chimera because otherwise they will not be chased of the field. Who cares about a few lost models when they keep on pouring out of the Chimera like its Black Friday.

seems like the only counter is pulling off the proper counter and biggest weakness of IG?! very op.... -.-'

but...but...Chimera. You can just climb in, drive somewhere else and undload to reopen fire. Your point being?

[saltychipmunk]

So , are we saying they are fine?

I mean you can't fault them for being good at exactly what guardsmen should be good at ... being cheap meat.

the only real issue i have with their durability is that they cost less than stock guardians (when they have a sarge) but have way more hp (what is it 80% more ?), half the reinforce cost, less pop cap and only slightly less damage.

but that is mostly me being confused with why guardians cost 300 req for a 40 pierce 500 hp infantry unit. its not like they start with any abilities.

[Atlas]

As Noobus has been saying, the point is specifically about the Commissar, not the GM squad in general. IG in general is a bunch of fragile, numerous squads with a ton of ranged fire. Nobody's complaining that GM fit that bill.

The GM Commissar has the same damage profile as a Tac Sergeant, but I bring that up mostly to highlight just how much better the single Commissar model is compared to the rest of the squad. The Sergeant, besides his buy 1 get 1 free bonus, is an otherwise pretty unremarkable fighter. I feel that he's ok even though he's in T1 because the overall package he gives you is significantly less than the Commissar who you can get very early in T2 if you want thanks to a reduced power cost.

I think he should be priced closer to other squad leaders who normally sit at 25 power.

[enasni127]

As Noobus has been saying, the point is specifically about the Commissar, not the GM squad in general. IG in general is a bunch of fragile, numerous squads with a ton of ranged fire. Nobody's complaining that GM fit that bill.

The GM Commissar has the same damage profile as a Tac Sergeant, but I bring that up mostly to highlight just how much better the single Commissar model is compared to the rest of the squad. The Sergeant, besides his buy 1 get 1 free bonus, is an otherwise pretty unremarkable fighter. I feel that he's ok even though he's in T1 because the overall package he gives you is significantly less than the Commissar who you can get very early in T2 if you want thanks to a reduced power cost.

I think he should be priced closer to other squad leaders who normally sit at 25 power.

many people, me included, complained alot about ig's ridiculously high power cost on t2 and as a result it was caeltos' idea to do some weird changes with the commissar and the manticore. i must say that this works out quite well but i would still prefer the old commissar and a cheaper ogryn squad or the good old storm eagle manticore for less money OR some squads and units of other factions which i find much too cheap compared to their counters would get a power cost increase finally (and i really think wraith guard is still one of them)

[Atlas]

Well wraithguard did get a 10 power increase last patch. But yes, IG T2 does get power hungry but I think that's because the T1 is very power light if you want it to be.

I also feel that it's in WHERE the power sinks are that are important. In that sense, the manticore reduction made a lot of sense since in 1v1s they are much more vulnerable. I was hoping to see ogryns get a similar treatment and to have increased power costs on the "auto-buy" upgrades like commissars and the chimera in order to compensate those price decreases. IG T2 is super strong but it's "core" is almost always composed of a chimera with massively upgraded gm.

[Cyris]

IG have gotten to an overbuffed state imo, and GM are a big part of this. I don't think a fully upgraded (sans weapon) GM squad should cost 400/15 then also be only 12 pop with below average upkeep.

As mentioned, IG have access to one of the lightest Power T1's in the game, so it seems super reasonable that T2 should be power hungry. They even have access to Storm Troopers, bringing high damage and utility for nearly no power. At the very least, this unit should be 15 pop and have normal upkeep costs, and maybe increase the req cost of Commissar if power is deemed in short supply.

[Oddnerd]

I think reducing the power cost was a mistake. Since I started playing Elite I mostly play as IG and I have to say the 20 power on a commissar was never an issue - the extra guys in the squads and the super fast retraining are almost indispensable. I would rather see the power cost for commissars and other squad upgrades stay where they are and instead see the power cost of ogryns go down. Ogryns are the only dedicated melee unit IG have and at the moment it isn't worth saving up all that power for a mediocre melee unit, especially when GM squads have much more rewarding power investments.

*edited, was 20 not 25 power

[Dark Riku]

It was 20 power before

[Dullahan]

I always thought it was fine at 20 power.

[Caeltos]

Still tinkering with the power dumps for IG in T2. It might have had too good of an effect in certain areas as a result, but it was abit of a concern pre-maturely before making the change. But from a different perspective, it has helped on other areas.

Ever the issue, ever the quest to solve it.

[saltychipmunk]

shave 10 off of ogryns and put 5 back on the commissar most people get 2 - 3 guardsmen so it more or less can balance out plus it could lightly address the fact that ogryns are notoriously hard to get off the ground with out radically changing ig power efficiencies.

[Dullahan]

As mentioned, IG have access to one of the lightest Power T1's in the game

This is why IG wargear was typically more expensive on power to compensate for this. (Save for Brazier, Power sword and Grenade launcher which were 20 power.) Armour upgrades would cost you 35 power in vanilla. The mod fucked this up though by making IG wargears cheaper across the board. Guardsmen and Sentinel didn't have a real power cost, but if you wanted catachans or wargear you were going to pay much more for them.

[Tex]

Please stop calling ogryns mediocre.

They aren't.

[Oddnerd]

Please stop calling ogryns mediocre.

They aren't.

Sorry, we will refer to them as horribly sub-par from now on.

[Atlas]

I'm going on Tex with this one. I always thought ogryns could go a little cheaper but it had nothing to do with them being UP. Just a small tweak imo, but they're completely usable right now.

[saltychipmunk]

Please stop calling ogryns mediocre.

They aren't.

can we at-least agree that being too expensive is not the same as saying they are a bad unit?