3v3 - No GK, no Random

[Cyris]

What an odd lobby name. I gotta find out...

"Why no random?" I ask, with a sudden sinking sensation that I already know the answer.

"Because you could get GK".

........

I can't even. I'm at loss for words here. This has officially jumped the shark. This is absurd now. This is past childish. This has got to be a joke. I literally can't even right now. We've gone full retard.

[DandyFrontline]

Well, some1 just hate GK

[Sub_Zero]

Players are free to create whatever rules they like. You are free to not join lobbies you don't like. People play this game for fun, this race annoys them enough to kill this fun. Do you not like as well when high resources comp stomp lobbies are made? This is how people have their fun in this game. And I see no problem in that whatsoever. You are unable to use this race in many lobbies and that annoys you as well. I get that position. Let's wait for adjustments and see how it changes the whole thing going about GK.

[Oddnerd]

"Grey Knights are totally fair and balanced even into T3"
-Someone who exclusively plays GK

[Sub_Zero]

Bias is the scariest thing in the context of balancing something. That doesn't let the person judge about his beloved hero/race adequately. I am not sure that anybody is 100% free of it.

[Codex]

I completely agree that people can set whatever game mode or rules that they want... it's a game, you still have the choice to partake in those games or not.

Re: biases, well no, no person can be free of biases. That's part of being human: in our constant search for patterns we often miss the true underlying state of affairs. Cognitive biases are a perfect example of this, but it applies across our entire mental lives.

[Vapor]

To be fair, I was *this* close to doing this back when Rhino was SHI for 6 months. Never actually banned GK but I did end up... y'know, not inviting GK mains to games. Lol

Anyway, at this point there's probably a lot of pent-up frustration with GK, and I'd imagine it's worse in lower-level games where all-in-1, safe units like GK terminators/palas are more dominant thanks to a-move meta. My solution to these bad-lobby issues has always been to host my own games, because then I don't have to deal with 5-minute stomps either.

[egewithin]

Meanwhile, my lobbys are simple

3v3 as you can see

[Atlas]

I like to make false promises about beer and bewbs to get ppl in, but ppl don't seem to mind when I don't give them that at the end

[Cyris]

"Grey Knights are totally fair and balanced even into T3"
-Someone who exclusively plays GK

I'd really like to know who has said this, or who you think has. It reminds me of Straw Mann, but he hasn't been around in a while.

Unless you are implying that it's me somehow? I mean, I didn't even exclusively play GK until 2.3 (and I can emphatically say that SHI Rhino was completely OP). Before that, I've alternated between maining almost every race, and my main before GK was actually Random (which is also the "race" I play in 3v3, which caused my frustration levels to peak). With the finishing of the last MRT I've started moving away from GK cause I think I've played them enough to understand them (I'll prolly jump back if there are big changes in the next patch). As a gamer who strives to better myself, I try to move out of my comfort zone to play AS the things I see as strong. As Codex pointed out, bias is part of life and we should all strive to mitigate them. Instead of exclusively complaining something is OP, I go ahead and play as it to see what's up. It often teaches me the weaknesses I was missing. For instance, playing as Eldar made me respect how fragile shees can be sometimes, or just how hard it can be to keep up that constant nid aggression.

Or, is it that you think that I have said GK are totally fair and balanced? And that they need no changes? And that their T3 is fine in 3v3? Hmm, I wonder if there is a way to look into the past, to see if this is true or not...

I think there are reasonable arguments to be made that their T3 is a bit strong in 3v3 due to the economics of team games.

I for one would welcome cost and build time decreases for GK termies (and the ability to level added!) in tandem with damage, health and ability nerfs, including putting teleport behind an upgrade. The goal would be to to make them more useful in 1v1 and less overpowering in team games.

My GK wishlist:
T3 made less OP in 3v3 and more viable in a normal 1v1.

As a general note, DoW2 is, to me, a game of OP things fighting each other. Find the best way to utilize your OP shit, and how to mitigate the effectiveness of your opponents OP shit.

But yeah, GK are not fair in 3v3, though I maintain they are fine in 1v1.

(Note on this last one, it's an older quote, and I've revised my opinion since then. But you get the idea.)

[Oddnerd]

I'd really like to know who has said this, or who you think has. It reminds me of Straw Mann, but he hasn't been around in a while.

I wasn't quoting anyone specifically. It just feels like a lot of the people who claim that a disliked race/unit isn't unfair are the ones who benefit the most from them. I can often tell who the terminator spammers are because they are often the most vocal defenders of terminators.

Again, not a reference to you, more a reference to the general DOWII point-and-click unit abusers in general. It really sucks when you put a lot of effort into micro-managing you units, and some asshole shows up with a point-and-click blob (with wonderful abilities ranging from invincibility to teleporting) and is able do so much more damage at the cost of so much less effort on their part.

[Sub_Zero]

Again, not a reference to you, more a reference to the general DOWII point-and-click unit abusers in general. It really sucks when you put a lot of effort into micro-managing you units, and some asshole shows up with a point-and-click blob (with wonderful abilities ranging from invincibility to teleporting) and is able do so much more damage at the cost of so much less effort on their part.

Exactly...

[Cyris]

I wasn't quoting anyone specifically.

I know, you are summarizing an entire group of people and insulting them. There are words for these actions like this, and they are not kind words.

It just feels like a lot of the people who claim that a disliked race/unit isn't unfair are the ones who benefit the most from them.

It feels that way does it? To me, it feels like a really vocal group of bigots are angry at the life choices I've made. I'd also like to see you pull up some quotes from these "un-savory" types that are "ruining it for the good GK players who play the game properly". Maybe we can deport them? I'm sure some GK mains are hardworking members of the community. We should keep those, and get rid of the rest.

I can often tell who the terminator spammers are because they are often the most vocal defenders of terminators.

I can often tell who the noobs are, because they often complain instead of share tips on how to beat things.

Again, not a reference to you,

On that same note, none of the things I'm saying here are a reference to you either. So you are not allowed to get upset.

more a reference to the general DOWII point-and-click unit abusers in general. It really sucks when you put a lot of effort into micro-managing you units, and some asshole shows up with a point-and-click blob (with wonderful abilities ranging from invincibility to teleporting) and is able do so much more damage at the cost of so much less effort on their part.

This type of person plays nearly every faction. They find a low micro 3v3 build that is very effective and stick to it. I personally don't mind, cause they tend to not be terribly good or adaptive. Cornohlio had a thread about it, but it didn't go so well. These people also occasionally defend every aspect of it tooth and nail as totally fine. DoW2 is a game of OP units and combos, so it works out more or less.

[Asmon]

Point-and-click blobbers are my favorite kind of enemies. They make me wish warpthrow had an even larger AoE.

Nice post Cyris, I laughed.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I can't believe people are still mad that they get beaten by blob armies. There are so many available counters, so just avail yourself of these and move on with your live.

"Point-and-Click" abusers should not be a problem for you if you know what you are doing (see above). If you get "abused" while still micro-managing your units, either your micro is still not up to par or you are positioning your units wrong. The following units shut down blobs very hard: Spotters, Catachans, Whirlwind, Stikkbommaz, any Suppression Team incl. P-Devs, Jump Units. These are units that came to mind when brainstorming for just one second. Globals and abilities are not even mentioned here. Unless some extremely broken unit (of which there are currently none in the entire game) is part of that blob and therefor making it too difficult to beat, you need to sit down, look at the replay, look at it again, and then one more time and then come up with a counter-strategy instead of calling it imba/OP/broken/idiotic etc.

@Oddnerd:
I assume you were talking about 3v3s? If the GK player is able to spam/rush Terminators, then you have simply not put enough pressure on the enemy team. Usual strategies (I believe they are not endorsed by any GK-main) are to go for a very light build, sometimes even skip T2 entirely, just to get out Terminators/Paladins fast. That means, there is a player running around with basically an all-T1 army with maybe some upgrades. That also means you are basically fighting 2.5 players. There should be room to punish the enemy team for that strategy.

If I misunderstood you here, please care to elaborate more on what that invincible blob of death with teleporting abilities is comprised of.

Point-and-click blobbers are my favorite kind of enemies. They make me wish warpthrow had an even larger AoE.

Nice post Cyris, I laughed.

^^

P.S: Also, most of the times people do not use Operatives because they are deemed to micro-intensive....Go figure.

[Cyris]

Usual strategies (I believe they are not endorsed by any GK-main) are to go for a very light build, sometimes even skip T2 entirely, just to get out Terminators/Paladins fast. That means, there is a player running around with basically an all-T1 army with maybe some upgrades. That also means you are basically fighting 2.5 players. There should be room to punish the enemy team for that strategy.

Fun fact, this is EXACTLY what I went through when I transitioned my opinion from "GK are OP in 3v3" to "They are strong, but it's ok". I theory crafted (and saw a stream) of GK going 2 IST, SS -> Terminator Spam. My theory was that by leaning on your team, and utilizing efficient upgrades and careful play, you can sleaze into T3 and just spam terminators to gg.

In practice, this only worked when the teams were stacked. So I stopped doing it and changed my mind on the subject. GK T3 is still very strong because of the nature of 3v3, but it's also fairly one dimensional.

[Oddnerd]

I can't believe people are still mad that they get beaten by blob armies. There are so many available counters, so just avail yourself of these and move on with your live.

I must correct myself by saying I am not referring to any blob in general - I should discontinue the use of the word blob, I was thinking more of units who you can generally move around and point/click your way to winning with little fear of losing them suddenly or having to make a lot of fast decisions. A guardsmen/DA/shoota blob can be punished for bad micro, but tougher units like terminators and plague marines are incredibly forgiving of poor/minimal micro tactics - in other words there is nothing you can do punish them swiftly and severely in the same way you would other units. I generally love T1, enjoy T2, and detest T3 because as the tech tree progresses you end up with more and more units that provide a huge punch without demanding much input from the player using them.

P.S: Also, most of the times people do not use Operatives because they are deemed to micro-intensive....Go figure.

Yep, no surprise there.

@Oddnerd:
I assume you were talking about 3v3s? If the GK player is able to spam/rush Terminators, then you have simply not put enough pressure on the enemy team. Usual strategies (I believe they are not endorsed by any GK-main) are to go for a very light build, sometimes even skip T2 entirely, just to get out Terminators/Paladins fast. That means, there is a player running around with basically an all-T1 army with maybe some upgrades. That also means you are basically fighting 2.5 players. There should be room to punish the enemy team for that strategy.

If I misunderstood you here, please care to elaborate more on what that invincible blob of death with teleporting abilities is comprised of.

I have watched 1v1s and 2v2s and it is not unique to 3v3 by any means (although the effect is more pronounced). I don't even think the problem is limited to abusive rush/spam techniques - even in a fairly normal-paced game, as soon as the 3 astartes factions start training their terminators I know the quality of the game is going downhill soon.

It feels that way does it? To me, it feels like a really vocal group of bigots are angry at the life choices I've made.

There are reasons why certain races/units are reviled in this game. It is not like a small group of people get together, spin a wheel, and randomly decide which race we are going to hate this month... just because we want to hate something. The thing that generally makes a lot of people angry is facing somebody who has to use so much less effort to accomplish something than they do - not because of skill differences but because some units/armies in this game require much less micromanagement and decision making to be effective.

If two people of roughly equal skill/experience face each other with different races and one guy has to do way more micromanagement and way more split-second decision making in order to break even, he is not a bigot for getting pissed off.

This type of person plays nearly every faction. They find a low micro 3v3 build that is very effective and stick to it. I personally don't mind, cause they tend to not be terribly good or adaptive. Cornohlio had a thread about it, but it didn't go so well. These people also occasionally defend every aspect of it tooth and nail as totally fine. DoW2 is a game of OP units and combos, so it works out more or less.

Correct, but they seem to gravitate to some factions more so than others. I am 99% certain coornholios thread was about plague marines, who are basically diet terminators.

[Forestradio]

P.S: Also, most of the times people do not use Operatives because they are deemed to micro-intensive....Go figure.

most of the times people do not use Operatives because they are deemed to micro-intensive

people do not use Operatives because they are deemed to micro-intensive

Operatives because they are to micro-intensive

[Adeptus Noobus]

I was trying to convey that people do not use Operatives although they are a damn fine unit...

[saltychipmunk]

I was trying to convey that people do not use Operatives although they are a damn fine unit...

those people are WRONG! ops is best unit.

I find it funny that people kick me when i play gk because i have never gotten more than one terminator squad. and i actually have one of the heaviest t1 openers imaginable at 2 strikes 2 ops and a gl ist .

no idea why you would go light on gk t1. all of their good t2 units are low pop and their t1 units are stupid good.

you dont get a cheaper source of 60 pierce than on those ops and you dont get better use of strikes than in t1. whore that shit.

gk spam terminators because they tend to lose a lot of units by going light. as I have said before this would not be an issue if there was some limit that kept gk from spamming terminators.

they need a cool down like how other terminator call ins have a long cool down to prevent spamage . they get a cool down and the crappy gk players will then have an incentive to actually keep their army alive instead of not giving a shit if it dies because it frees up space for the derpy derp termi spam.

again i play gk , and the termi spam is derp.

[Atlas]

Mildly concur with what Salty said. Except for the 2 strikes part, that's just garbage build imo.

If you aren't using 2 ops in every game then shame on you, because those guys are stupid good esp in vs sm and eldar (mostly due to refusing to build rangers ever these days).

I'm a broken record but ops have too much going for them right now. Obviously, they're going to get refined in the next patch so that's all I'll say on that.

Another broken record I AM going to repeat though is that there's some internal balance issues going on right now that I feel are also going to get addressed. People are focusing too much on all the broken OP stuff right now and not all the other broken UP stuff because of it.

-The T1 Rhino has gone the way of the dodo as far as I can tell.

-The Halberd-Aegis-Tele combo is really good, and the rest of the Brother Captain's wargears are struggling to find a place as a result(with the exception of maybe Unending Purge, though I'm personally on the fence about Nemesis Sword but I don't see other ppl using it).

-Most of the energy transfer mechanics(Canticle, Excommunication, Purify(?)) of GK in general need a lot more love and relevance in their playstyle imo.

-Strikes are still finding a place in T2 besides being your relegated capping unit.

-Puris are struggling because they are competing with a ton of other great melee options like the Dread, the already noted Halberd BC, GK Libby and Terms later on. In general, there's a ton of anti-melee overlap in GK T2.

-Flamer Purgs in early T2 when Gen-Bashing and Anti-Melee is becoming less of a big deal because of ^

-GK T3 is also wholly one-dimensional as the LRC is prohibitively expensive while also not having the same level of impact as Terminators.
----------------------

Why are we not talking about these things?!?!?!

[saltychipmunk]

but but , i am using two ops....


t3 got better with the addition of the interceptors , but i hate how their leader does not get a psi cannon. ugh i hate those kind of units where the most expensive model gets the least useful weapon set.

i would be all for just making the lr a build-able while moving the paladins to a call in.


also radical idea, what if we made purifiers a call in?

give them say 450 req 200/250 red 0 -25 power (if we still need power) . it neatly sidesteps their power bleed situation while still gating them in other ways. and it will be a nifty way to reward players who don't burn all of their red on mindblades

I was always under the impression purifiers and paladins were special even among grey knights , so it seems perfectly acceptable to make them red based calls ins.

[Crewfinity]

but but , i am using two ops....


t3 got better with the addition of the interceptors , but i hate how their leader does not get a psi cannon. ugh i hate those kind of units where the most expensive model gets the least useful weapon set.

i would be all for just making the lr a build-able while moving the paladins to a call in.


also radical idea, what if we made purifiers a call in?

give them say 450 req 200/250 red 0 -25 power (if we still need power) . it neatly sidesteps their power bleed situation while still gating them in other ways. and it will be a nifty way to reward players who don't burn all of their red on mindblades

I was always under the impression purifiers and paladins were special even among grey knights , so it seems perfectly acceptable to make them red based calls ins.

0_o
i'm like 95 percent sure the interceptor justicar has a psycannon and only switches to force sword/storm bolter when the rest of the squad does.
Am I just totally crazy?

I like the GK trait of being able to build paladins from base, I wouldn't want to change that.
While I agree that purifiers need some tweaking, I don't think making them a call-in is the direction to go. they're too high of an impact of a unit to be able to get instantly as a T2 ability (like the banewolf), and GK globals are pretty good where they are.

[Atlas]

"But I like building Palas out of base." - The GK Main

I'm kind of meh on the palas/puris call in. I think globals can be fiddled with more if/when we get more GK heroes. Until then, we're kind of stuck with that we have imo.

[saltychipmunk]

i am about 5% sure they dont get cannons, there was a reason why i dont get the upgrade on them anymore, and since it has been a while since i have gotten the upgrade i am kinda maybe sure that the reason was the lack of a cannon the justicar. not positive. and lord know i have been wrong before

ehh worth getting one i suppose the next time i play.

[Crewfinity]

Nope you'really absolutely right. Justicar comes with bolter and sword. That should be changed then imo