Cost considerations for DA's

[PhatE]

Eldar is getting really tiresome since the last patch.

A increase to them has stunted the creative openings one can do and also is a huge burden on the overall, arguably, most fragile economy of any of the races. One simply can't afford to get more than one in 1 vs 1's unless you want to be further behind in the economy wars.

They don't have staying power for upfront fights unless they had the exarch or (prepatch) BE, both are expensive but at least it's a one time purchase not an ongoing resource sink. Before I was able to do DA banshee DA Shuriken Ranger (and a multitude of others) and it not be a high risk build. Now the only thing that seems viable is DA Banshee Shuriken Shuriken/Ranger (optional ranger). There are no other builds that are worth the time except maybe 3 DA, and that's a strong maybe.

I would like to suggest that the cost be reverted back to 270 since it fixes a lot of issues with Eldar straight away. However, if people are up in arms over that idea then increase the cost of BE by 15 req which would effectively be the same thing as having an initial 300 req cost. Or if that's crazy talk then revert the cost of banshee's to 400 since this unit is far less important than DA, in my opinion.

[Tex]

I'm with you on that one buddy.

Only bonus is guardians start with more health at 300 req, but I found they worked way better at 270 req.

[saltychipmunk]

i never got why DA cost more than upgraded guardsmen despite having WAY less hp and only marginally more dps.
even if it is not exactly apples too apples the t1 light infantry squads in the game really should have proportional power to cost ratios .

even shootaboys are doing better and shootaboys have been slipping in the meta mostly because they have been outed as being less and less cost effective.

infact if it weren't for the existence of non-upgraded scouts... DA would be the least cost effective t1 unit in the game currently on a hp/damage to cost ratio.

[egewithin]

DA are not worth for 300 req. 270 was so perfect... I think they increased the prize because they could get Exarch in T1. But hey, it can be fixed, thats why patches exist.

[Atlas]

I'll throw in my own sentiment that maybe we should consider rolling back the changes on DAs. I think having the exarch in T1 is enough of a change to keep them competitive. Yes, it's more power but anything that promotes more 2 DA play and less fast shuri spam is a win in my book.

[Codex]

I remember this change being implemented, and I think it made a lot of sense at the time.

Back in those days, if you consider the Eldar T1 for a moment:

Rangers: bleed monsters with an upgrade that increased their range and gave them energy abilities that was virtually compulsory on 1 ranger squad (i.e. maybe not on the second one). Can even operate with one member at maximal efficiency (i.e better than 3/3) if one was ballsy/had great micro, but 2/3 is also very good. Great against all infantry but brought fantastic utility on top of that, carrying well into the late game as detectors for superunits etc.

Shuriken Cannon: Your cheap, humble shuriken cannon with excellent stats. Superior mobility means they have excellent ability to kite jump troops and reposition, which gives it great synergy with a lot of Eldar troops (DA, Banshees and Rangers all have synergy with it). Modified in Elite to remove their only major weakness which is scaling: Brightlance as an upgrade seriously improves their scaling potential (since it was close to zero pre Elite).

Guardians at 270 req: Moderately cheap efficient squads bringing tac dps on a glass cannon platform. Virtually reliant on Battle equipment as an upgrade, since they are so squishy and the abilities BE provides are insane. Has a very efficient squad leader in T2 (as all their squad leaders were by design).

Banshees: excellent melee troops for a power free melee unit: unique in that they bring 70 melee skill, power weapons and decent squad size to the fray at the beginning of the game if the Eldar player so chooses. Not to mention their excellent mobility, great aspect upgrade and thematic strong squad leader with excellent chase potential. They often were (and still are) the focal point of many synergistic abilities and compositions of Eldar. However, their propensity to bleeding in even or disadvantaged fights, thereby stalling an Eldar's early economy is what makes them inherently risky purchases. (Also despite their leader being great on paper the fact that it often leads the charge made it a frequent replacement. But that was okay because the economy of Eldar back then was very streamlined.)

So that's what the real point of this post was. Eldar T1 was very cost-efficient AND efficient AND streamlined. There is a reason that the 1-1-1-1 build worked so well if you managed to get it rolling: all those units were very efficient in their roles and managed to bleed the opponent without retaliation. However, there have been some changes to Eldar T1 (primarily with regards to DAs and Rangers) that make them far less good at those old roles.

Perhaps, then, DAs need a cost decrease. Or perhaps (Caeltos would know better what his intentions are) this signals that DAs are not meant to be suited to full frontal combat the way other ranged T1 units are:

Let's consider DAs at 300 vs 270:

Higher initial cost: yes 30 is significant, it will change the timings of a lot of squads/gens. But it's also moderately significant.
Reinforcement costs: Over the course of a game, this is what truly defines the cost change impact. DAs are prone to bleed (as virtually all Eldar units are by design), thus encouraging more sneaky and maneuver tactics. Is that the reason for their apparent lack of frontal combat efficiency? I don't know. All I do know is that it would benefit the Eldar to maneuver, take advantage of solid upgrades and general efficiency, and pressure the map to achieve favourable egagements.

As opposed to bleeding their opponents to kingdom come without retaliation.

[Oddnerd]

i never got why DA cost more than upgraded guardsmen despite having WAY less hp and only marginally more dps.
even if it is not exactly apples too apples the t1 light infantry squads in the game really should have proportional power to cost ratios .

even shootaboys are doing better and shootaboys have been slipping in the meta mostly because they have been outed as being less and less cost effective.

infact if it weren't for the existence of non-upgraded scouts... DA would be the least cost effective t1 unit in the game currently on a hp/damage to cost ratio.

I don't actually know the exact numbers, but DA shuriken weaponry seem to pack much more of a punch. Guardsmen lasguns are painfully weak and only ever good for attrition. A couple of DA squads at medium range will inflict some serious pain, especially if they catch you out of cover.

[Dullahan]

They're fine, imo. Saying more than one guardian isn't viable is absurd. Even in their barebones form they still have good damage output and both their upgrades are really, really good. Getting warlock in t1 is amazing, especially for only 15 power.

The extra 3 man power to reinforce and extra 30 requisition is hardly game affecting either way. Cheaper Banshees makes up for it anyway.

i never got why DA cost more than upgraded guardsmen despite having WAY less hp and only marginally more dps.
even if it is not exactly apples too apples the t1 light infantry squads in the game really should have proportional power to cost ratios .

even shootaboys are doing better and shootaboys have been slipping in the meta mostly because they have been outed as being less and less cost effective.

infact if it weren't for the existence of non-upgraded scouts... DA would be the least cost effective t1 unit in the game currently on a hp/damage to cost ratio.

I don't actually know the exact numbers, but DA shuriken weaponry seem to pack much more of a punch. Guardsmen lasguns are painfully weak and only ever good for attrition. A couple of DA squads at medium range will inflict some serious pain, especially if they catch you out of cover.

A guardian model does around 8 DPS last I checked ( I doubt it has changed)
A guardsmen model does around 4.

So 5 guardians = 10 guardsmen.

[Oddnerd]

A guardian model does around 8 DPS last I checked ( I doubt it has changed)
A guardsmen model does around 4.

So 5 guardians = 10 guardsmen.

Ya that makes sense, and it should be that way. I would actually argue for it being more based on the original game - avenger catapults have 1 more strength, better armour piercing, and bladestorm (basically rending without the anti vehicle ability) when compared with the imperial flashlight.

[Cyris]

When I'm not being a GK apologist, I enjoy adding concrete numbers to debates! I have not gotten into Eldar play in a while, but here are some numbers between GM and DA:

DA:
300 req / 10 pop / 25 upkeep
600 health
44 dps
+.05 speed

GM + Sarge:
295 req / 9 pop / 17 upkeep
940 health
35 dps
+2 for 1 renforce
+10hp/s repair

DA is 10% faster with 30% more dps, for 340 less health and an overall higher "cost" (if we include cost, upkeep, pop and renforce int hat meta category). DA can also be much more heavily invest in with upgrades, but you could also just get a 2nd GM squad In T1 if we add in the warlock leader, we get this:

DA + Warlock:
385/15 cost / 12 pop / 30 upkeep (450/30 if we add Aspect)
875 health
57 dps
+Short range detect
+Melee charge/knockdown!

Quite a bit better, though 90/15 more spent should get you something. In a 1v1 DA will win now, but are more expensive, higher pop and upkeep and will cost a lot more to reinforce. Also relevant is that the Warlock doesn't have "die last", which can be a real pain. DA can still nab Aspect to dislodge a setup team or dissuade melee, make shields and fleet around, while the GM need to rely on other units to cover them. If we look in T2 with the Commissar, GM get alot stronger:

GM + Sarge + Commi:
380/15 cost / 12 pop / 22 upkeep
1280 health
60 dps
+3 for 1 renforce
+Execute

DA get Embolden and 20% ranged damage resist for free at this point.


So yeah, numbers! Looking at all this, the units match up fairly well until any amount of attrition happens, then it's IG all day. Which is sorta their gimmick! Eldar will out by leaning into aspect abilities.

[SinisterLaugh]

Argh! It`s so confusing when you guys mixing all that names in various combinations.
DA/Guardians, Aspect/BE, Exarch/Warlock

Hard to get used to new names, eh?)

[An'grathul]

As an Eldar player I'd love to see slightly cheaper DAs. My experiences with their quality vary wildly, having some games where they contribute well warding off weaker enemy units and tossing out some great grenades, others where they melt before they can properly contribute or just do pathetic damage vs more burly infantry. They're a unit that seems to only come into its own properly once it has its upgrades, but it's already quite difficult to judge how to spread your power in Eldar T1 as is, at least for me.

I'd really enjoy being able to experiment with more double DA builds, but currently they feel lacking unless you're fighting IG. I don't consider myself experienced enough to make statements of great validity on this, but I do feel like single DA is a bit of a restrictive reality in most matchups at the moment, at least on many maps. A shoutout to Codex for the informative explanation on the implementation of the current status.

[PhatE]

...Saying more than one guardian isn't viable is absurd...

The extra 3 man power to reinforce and extra 30 requisition is hardly game affecting either way. Cheaper Banshees makes up for it anyway.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt with this as it's unclear as to whether you're being serious or not. But in case you are;

There are massive disadvantages of getting two in a large portion of matchups. 3 extra requisition for a squad that peels like onions does not benefit the player whatsoever and, as mentioned, constantly having to reinforce on a very shaky economy is a pretty big set back. I'm not going to compare two races and starting units because that's a waste of time and frankly a pissing match that I won't be a part of.

If Eldar don't have upgrades then you're reliant on shurikens which are imperative to Eldar staying alive in T1. But getting two right now means that you're sacrificing your shuriken timing for reinforcements just waiting to get enough power since your number of gens is lacking. The number of MU's where you absolutely need that before anything else is too high to not be relevant.

The initial cost is not so much the issue (although they are currently the most expensive starting squad IIRC) but the reinforce rate is. Both are tied together and are actual considerations that need to be thought about if Eldar is going to actually develop beyond the previously mentioned builds.

[HansMoleman]

Bring back 270 req plx. When I was giving feedback on what to change for eldar. Going back to 300 req DA was NOT the way to go. I've been having this arguement since they got changed. Eldar armies are never without their Dire Avenger vanguard to lead the way and take most of the blunt force from their opponents. The first unit in the HQ foR ALL FACTIONS should NEVER be more than 270. Killing all my creative builds =[ =[ =[ =[ =[

[Cyris]

I don't have a large amount of Eldar experience, but running those stats gave me a bit more insight into the DA I didn't have before. While I can't say that 270 or 300 is better, if they need some buffing I think the Battle Equipment price could be reduced. 65/15 could go to 50/15 or even 30/15 or 50/10, as a way to encourage Eldar players to maximize the strengths of the skills DA have. Now that Battle Equipment doesn't have stats on it, I find myself skipping it a LOT - most likely too my detriment. The last update took the bonus HP out of this upgrade and gave it to the base squad for the cost of 30 more req (and other changes).

But it also might be just fine like it is. Eldar are a tricky race, and they SHOULD win by properly layering abilities and flanks, not by efficiently costed units.

[Crewfinity]

does the exarch reduce received ranged damage by 20% in T1? or does that passive activate in T2 like the shoota boy nob damage buff?

on topic, I think with the health buffs that DA's would be a bit too strong at 270 req. when you compare them to shoota boyz, who also cost 270, they clearly outperform the ork unit out of the gate, with the same health and durability, but .5 speed faster, and 43.75 piercing dps instead of 35.

It may be better for the variability of eldar builds to revert the health buff back to the grenades and reduce their cost back to 270, but a flat cost decrease with no other tweaks is giving them too much imo.

[Cyris]

does the exarch reduce received ranged damage by 20% in T1? or does that passive activate in T2 like the shoota boy nob damage buff?

According to the codex, no. Both Embolden and the 20% damage resistance turn on in T2.

[saltychipmunk]

on topic, I think with the health buffs that DA's would be a bit too strong at 270 req. when you compare them to shoota boyz, who also cost 270, they clearly outperform the ork unit out of the gate, with the same health and durability, but .5 speed faster, and 43.75 piercing dps instead of 35.

shoota boyz also gain the benefits of a good waaagh. not saying it evens up the playing field .. but it is something to consider.

aren't there also grumblings about shootaboy efficiency these days as well? though i think that has more to do with their extremely power heavy upgrades

you do make a good point , when you compare them to da boyz the DA do seem balanced.

[Crewfinity]

shoota boyz also gain the benefits of a good waaagh. not saying it evens up the playing field .. but it is something to consider.

aren't there also grumblings about shootaboy efficiency these days as well? though i think that has more to do with their extremely power heavy upgrades

you do make a good point , when you compare them to da boyz the DA do seem balanced.

that's true about the waaaugh, but that's almost more a global faction ability since every unit has it and it costs red.

I dont think that shoota boyz are really that inefficient at all, just that sluggas are realllly good for a lot less investment.

it seems me that this change was targeted at making dire avengers less reliant on battle equipment, since they can get the exarch and be fairly durable and pack a good punch in T1 with no further upgrades due to the increased health pool and good mobility. So while it may be more punishing to bleed models, they do get better performance out the gate, which can allow for builds where you get avengers without battle equipment and play more aggressively. that said I'm terrible with eldar so I feel that bleed whenever I try to use them. Overall performance might be better with just leaving the exarch in T1 and reverting back to 270 req and health boost on the battle equipment. Or maybe Cyris was onto something with just a decrease on battle equipment.

[Thibix Magnus]

I've only “mained” Eldar, the bleed has always been extremely frustrating, along with other factions players forgetting about it when complaining about other Eldar advantages...

However I think it should remain as a specific feature as it gives so much flavour to their play style, implying this faction simply can't sacrifice lives to ensure victory but a hollow one. So if there is an under-performance issue, it should be solved another way than competing with shootas for “replaceability”. They should be punished for committing to long, attrition fights as blindly as other factions, but they should be better at surviving if they so choose, or at fighting on their own terms.

A cheaper aspect has already been mentioned (as the cost increased for starting health), thus an earlier access to fleet of foot (fof) and shield. Other possibilities: an inferior version of fof as a starting ability (then improved by aspect), a damage resistance coming with fof, a small buff to base speed, a speed buff to fof, or another health boost (less on topic here though). Or a mix of tiny bits of these.

We could also include the shield discussion here, when they had twice their health we looked differently at DA hp and bleed... 50% nerf was rough. A perfect example where a lot of players complained about previous shields but forgot that DA could only commit to serious fights this way. And because other factions don't need to choose their fights that much, opponents accepted Eldar terms of engagement (“I have perfect cover, you don't”, so Eldar), and fought shields head on, and complained it was tough.... Not saying that they should be fully reverted to their previous state, nor that it is a direct answer to the topic as some factions can stomp them much more easily than others. Just to throw in this additional factor.

As for creative builds I'm not good enough at 1v1 to judge it but I thought having two different starting upgrades precisely opened a world of possibilities...

[Cyris]

However I think it should remain as a specific feature as it gives so much flavour to their play style, implying this faction simply can't sacrifice lives to ensure victory but a hollow one.

I'd like to put emphasis here. A racial theme of "do everything you can to avoid taking bleed" is very flavorful for Eldar, and I don't wanna lose it. That's why I personally mentioned cheaper Aspect upgrades. It also puts more emphasis on the "use lots of abilities" theme Eldar have, and draws a contrast against the lack of efficiency of the base stats/reinforce costs of DA. Both flavorful, and leans the faction in a specific direction, both good things.

That said, they might be just fine as is.

[Dullahan]

...Saying more than one guardian isn't viable is absurd...

The extra 3 man power to reinforce and extra 30 requisition is hardly game affecting either way. Cheaper Banshees makes up for it anyway.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt with this as it's unclear as to whether you're being serious or not. But in case you are;

There are massive disadvantages of getting two in a large portion of matchups. 3 extra requisition for a squad that peels like onions does not benefit the player whatsoever and, as mentioned, constantly having to reinforce on a very shaky economy is a pretty big set back. I'm not going to compare two races and starting units because that's a waste of time and frankly a pissing match that I won't be a part of.

If Eldar don't have upgrades then you're reliant on shurikens which are imperative to Eldar staying alive in T1. But getting two right now means that you're sacrificing your shuriken timing for reinforcements just waiting to get enough power since your number of gens is lacking. The number of MU's where you absolutely need that before anything else is too high to not be relevant.

The initial cost is not so much the issue (although they are currently the most expensive starting squad IIRC) but the reinforce rate is. Both are tied together and are actual considerations that need to be thought about if Eldar is going to actually develop beyond the previously mentioned builds.

If you build a second Guardian squad, capture only your natural power point, immediately upgrade it and put three gens on it and put a shuriken on overwatch it will take you 1 minute and 41 seconds for the shuriken to begin construction from game start.

If you do the same except build two generators instead of three it will take you 1 minute and 34 seconds for the shuriken to begin construction.

If you do the same except with only one generator instead of two or three it will take you one minute and 40 seconds for the shuriken to begin construction.



The take away here is that you can build less generators without suffering too much, and that extra requisition can be used elsewhere. If you go cap other power points on the map (most maps give you easy access to two, ashes of typhon or leviathan hive give you three)) you can start building it even faster. More gens does not always mean faster T1,5 squads, because requisition is the true bottleneck resource. In fact, it very very rarely means that. Simply math will tell you that the third gen only offers you an extra 10 power per minute. Or in other words, an extra 1 power every 6 seconds. Meanwhile if we assume 300 requisition income per minute, it will take you twenty seconds to regain the 100 requisition you spend on that third generator. Moreover, the generator takes time to build so it won't even be offering you any benefit for quite some time. I don't think It will ever make much of a difference in your economy timings and is more often than not detrimental because requisition is always the limiting factor. You are better off capping other power points on the map if you want to increase your power income past two generators.


With the new dire avengers, you pay an extra 3 requisition per model loss and an extra 30 requisition at the outset.
With the new banshees, you pay 5 less requisition per model loss an 50 less requisition at the outset.

So building building a guardian + banshee is marginally faster than it used to be (Total 650 requisition versus 670 requisition) and you have to lose 2 guardian models for every 1 banshee model to be net negative on requisition compared to the old economy timings. If we consider the 20 requisition difference between initial cost, it's going to take you a ton of model losses to be net negative here overall.


So here's the tl,dr

Build 2 gens not three, if you build banshees the money you save on banshee bleed more than pays for the guardian cost increase. If you do this you are NET AHEAD over Eldar when Guardians were 270 and banshees 400. Either way it should be a marginal difference in overall requisition.

[destructomat]

When I'm not being a GK apologist, I enjoy adding concrete numbers to debates! .

I love the maths, but quoting a squad's health and DPS like it is a single unit can be misleading, since model loss decreases DPS in squad's, while an "equivalent" single unit should have constant DPS until death.

[saltychipmunk]

2 guardians and a banshee ( a standard opener for eldar) is not heavily affected by the change, i still get my plat out in the same amount of time either way. you can debate with dulla all day about it, but you cant really argue with a clock and it sayith not much has changed.

now it DOES affect builds that spam guardians. 3 - 4 guardian builds got hurt alot. since the efficiency meta right now more or less relies on you taking advantage of the cheaper req banshees to offset the now more expensive guardians to get pre patch numbers.


Ill stop short of saying banshees are being forced on eldar, but i will say they were made really really attractive as a 3rd unit

also damn it ill will not stop calling them guardians, i played 10 years ,calling them guardians Dow1 - Elite. i am not stopping now.

[Lichtbringer]

Please lets not forget that Banshees were also nerfed, and not only made cheaper, thanks. (Not saying anything else about balance or anything, just keep it in mind.)

[Dark Riku]

Buffs
Banshee cost reduced from 400 to 350
Banshee upkeep reduced from 38,25 to 30,8
Aspect of Banshee (Strength) cost decreased from 100/25 to 75/20
New upgrade: Aspect of Fleetness
XP value decreased from 100 to 90
Health increased from 125 (625 total) to 150 (750 total)
Banshee Exarch health increased from 200 to 240
Banshee Exarch Power Sword special attack damage increased from 20 to 24

nerfs
Banshee Exarch cost increased from 85/15 to 90/25
Aspect health bonus decreased from 30% to 10%
Can't chase across the map any longer

Banshees, nerfed? Strange, I do not see it that way at all. They seem pretty buffed actually.
Please fill in if I missed something or something is off.

[saltychipmunk]

i agree, at worst they came out neutral if not ahead.

[Lichtbringer]

Buffs
Banshee cost reduced from 400 to 350
Banshee upkeep reduced from 38,25 to 30,8
Aspect of Banshee (Strength) cost decreased from 100/25 to 75/20
New upgrade: Aspect of Fleetness
XP value decreased from 100 to 90
Health increased from 125 (625 total) to 150 (750 total)
Banshee Exarch health increased from 200 to 240
Banshee Exarch Power Sword special attack damage increased from 20 to 24

nerfs
Banshee Exarch cost increased from 85/15 to 90/25
Aspect health bonus decreased from 30% to 10%
Can't chase across the map any longer

Banshees, nerfed? Strange, I do not see it that way at all. They seem pretty buffed actually.
Please fill in if I missed something or something is off.

I assumed we were just talking about the latest patch, because anything else is not really usefull information, and the cost reduction specifically was mentioned.
So the list looks more like:

buffs:
Banshee cost reduced from 400 to 350 and Banshee upkeep reduced from 38,25 to 30,8.
Banshee Exarch Power Sword special attack damage increased from 20 to 24.

nerfs:
no meleecharge, can't chase / retreatkill.

[Crewfinity]

I assumed we were just talking about the latest patch, because anything else is not really usefull information, and the cost reduction specifically was mentioned.
So the list looks more like:

buffs:
Banshee cost reduced from 400 to 350 and Banshee upkeep reduced from 38,25 to 30,8.
Banshee Exarch Power Sword special attack damage increased from 20 to 24.

nerfs:
no meleecharge, can't chase / retreatkill.

while the latest changes are certainly the most relevant, its important to also consider the state of banshees prior to the changes as well, so I think riku's point was well made. Looking at the latest changes it certainly seems that the cost decreases are balanced out by the loss of chase potential, but when you consider that shees have more starting health than they used to, cost decreases become even more noticeable because they have increased performance out of the gate. because balancing is an ongoing process you have to look at the overall state of units rather than only looking at how they changed from last patch.

[Asmon]

At first I thought I wouldn't interfere but then some pretty incorrect data came in. No matter what the figures are, they cannot tell the truth by themselves. Banshees are much less cost effective now, period. They have always bled and will keep doing so. That's their trait.

Yet now they don't bleed your opponent as much, and though many feel comfortable with this, it definitively made them so weak than DA become the T1 alternative for damage dealing. But how to kill anything with only one DA squad (apart from nades)? Hence the need for several DAs. And now we're losing more DA models than shees, merely because we have more DA.

Conclusion: give DA a melee charge for Khaine's sake.