Need confirmation on assault kit upgrade

[Sub_Zero]

In retail it used to boost the range by 40%, now it is written that it only does by 20%. Is that correct? There wasn't a single mention about that in change-log from Retail or in patch-notes (at least I couldn't find any).

In game I also noticed that their range isn't as great as I remember it to be (recently started playing IG again after a really long break).

If this is confirmed then I ask to shift this topic to balance discussion, I am just uncertain right now to post it there.

[Wise Windu]

It is 20%.

[Sub_Zero]

Ok, now I want to discuss it in a proper section.

And while we at it, how come this change wasn't documented at all? I couldn't find a single mention. I wonder if there are other perhaps minor things that were changed the same way.

[Wise Windu]

Because when it was changed, someone forgot to write it down. There probably are other things that were undocumented or incorrectly documented. In the end, it doesn't really matter too much. The stats are in the Codex for the most part, and what they were in Retail as compared to Elite isn't really very consequential in my opinion. At least the changes that have been there for a long time. This one wasn't made recently.

I added the range increase change to the main site's full changelog.

[Sub_Zero]

Well it happens when you have an established race with an established hero and play only that exclusively for a long time and when you start playing other races and heroes you revisit them and start noticing some things that you haven't seen listed as changed and start wondering "what the heck?"

Regarding balance I don't think it is a great change to reduce their range and give them a grenade (as a compensation?). I always perceived them as a sniper-like unit but now they aren't really that. It required skill to keep them at their maximal range and delivering a burst move them away and repeat the operation, now you have to be pretty careful with them since the range is lowered what isn't really justified. IG is more than any race in need of unit like this - that can outrange a lot of things. Because manticore is hella expensive and spotters aren't the most reliable thing in the world (sure they reliably disrupt and reduce vision but you have to deal real damage with normal range units who can be ovewhelmed quickly).

[Atlas]

The reason it got nerfed from 40% to 20% is because at 40% it would in fact out range setup teams. There would be almost no reason to buy spotters or manti (outside of blobbers) since you would have essentially an a-move power free setup team counter as soon as you hit t2.

At 20%, AKST are just barely in range, so they can still pop a salvo off and duck out of range before getting suppressed. There's some micro to be had there.

[Sub_Zero]

Given the fact that IG have no jump troops and assault walkers this seems as a necessary option. Eldar have rangers in T1 who if managed properly can never ever be caught due to their super range. I don't see a problem if a T2 unit does the same - hard counter to any ranged unit as long as managed properly. IG is the most vulnerable race to suppression teams in T1, this unit seems like a fair compensation for that. And you would always love to get spotters and manticores. Why? Very simple. Spotters are the only more or less reliable option to deal with suppression teams available in T1. And the manticore is a very potent artillery option that is effective against almost all targets. AK stormtroopers won't do anything to a vehicle.

Honestly I support changes that make game harder to play (some tactics to be effective require more skill from you) but that is really kinda contradicting when you look at rangers' range of 65 and the tier they are available in, you are fine with their existence but when IG has a T2 unit who would do the same thing but more effectively (tier difference, right?) is apparently imbalanced. Points to counter that (yes, I know them all, you may not even reply) - 1) IG has a forgiving economy when it comes to requisition expenditures, so it is easy to get this unit, it also costs you no power; 2) But they have 15x5=75 piercing DPS! That is a lot, yes, that is. And they won't be effective just against suppression but against pretty much every infantry-based unit and against heroes.; 3) And they have a grenade of all things!; 4) At their maximum range they can't be detected by any detector; 5) Adjust your play (that I will do because I really like when game is changed so every easy high-rewarding mechanic becomes hard but still as high-rewarding, just that change wasn't really mentioned anywhere and when I used this unit in game I indeed got a little bit disappointed in its decreased potency)

[Atlas]

Given the fact that IG have no jump troops and assault walkers this seems as a necessary option.

And you would always love to get spotters and manticores. Why? Very simple. Spotters are the only more or less reliable option to deal with suppression teams available in T1.

Actually I feel like these two statements contradict each other. The first implies that 40% range AKST are necessary because IG lacks the normal suppression team counters, while the latter claims spotters are "more or less reliable" at dealing with suppression teams starting in T1.

Rangers fill a very different role than ST and suppression team counter is just a part of that. I am fine with them being range 65 because they no longer instantly wipe models off the field anymore and tbh, in IG vs Eldar Rangers aren't super helpful anyway and you mostly get them for detection vs ieds or killing sents. I'd much rather have another shuri team.

To again put AKST with 40% range into perspective, 40% AKST would in fact also outrange Flash Gitz WITH their gitfinda upgrade. And their snazzguns already start with extra range compared to normal weapons. I might be slightly exaggerating on this, but 40% AKST might be able to hit targets from a screen away O.o .

[Sub_Zero]

I'll explain over. Out of all setup team counters in T1 spotters are the only ones who require additional forces to actually counter setup teams. Other units do it on their own. Snipers are the ultimate counter to suppression teams, counter-tactic against them implies that you play by the rules of the player who uses snipers - you engage them and put yourself at a risk, not them. Jump units are a strong counter to suppression teams, though can be overwhelmed by superior melee forces and eventually get forced off before they force off the intended target. But spotters are unique. They can decrease range and disrupt. The first means that a setup team holds its position and will keep on firing once the smoke disappears (what if I tell you that a setup team positioned in any cover will take very little damage). The second is a bit more threatening but still the suppression team can freely resetup (only we add additional disruption from catachans or sentinels' stomp or heroes who tie it up in melee) again and continue firing. This is what I mean when I say that AK stormtroopers are a fair compensation for that. And if you buy a manticore specifically to counter one setup team then it is really a bad tactic (well it counters that but for what cost? there has to be a cheaper counter). Manticore is just a great damage deliver that you have to use on everything. Not just to counter a single setup team you would otherwise struggle to counter with anything else.

Rangers fill a very different role than ST and suppression team counter is just a part of that. I am fine with them being range 65 because they no longer instantly wipe models off the field anymore and tbh, in IG vs Eldar Rangers aren't super helpful anyway and you mostly get them for detection vs ieds or killing sents. I'd much rather have another shuri team.

Both rangers and AK stormtroopers are units with infiltration, non-standard range and deliver damage in bursts. They are pretty much units from one group. Regarding IG vs Eldar I would get rangers any day due to their infiltration of friendly forces (ever played CS vs IG MU and saw how superior that infiltration is? with rangers you kinda get access to that), kinetic pulse that decimates guardsmen, they are the only good counter to HWT and sentinels. You diminish their value in this MU. I would get shuriken on top of them but not another platform instead of them.

I might be slightly exaggerating on this, but 40% AKST might be able to hit targets from a screen away

Well that you do. Artilllery teams tend to do that. Not the thing with these guys.

[Dark Riku]

Besides my opinion that the upgrade does not need a buff are here some things I find flawed with your arguments. Use the knockback shell slightly behind the setupteam, that way they get knocked towards your IG blob, probably no resetting up for them and/or use your hero to tie it up in melee. Once you buy the manticore and use it to counter or wipe a setup the manti is still going to be a threat that has to be dealth with. It has multiple uses.

[Sub_Zero]

Use the knockback shell slightly behind the setupteam

That is something I am aware of.

probably no resetting up for them and/or use your hero to tie it up in melee

only we add additional disruption from catachans or sentinels' stomp or heroes who tie it up in melee - my words, you see I brought even more tactics. But all of them are unreliable. Because everything that approaches its target on foot can be slowed down by shoota boyz, termagaunts, scouts, banshees, heretics, catachans or counter-play from certain heroes. A jump unit avoids all these things and can directly asssault any setup team without any mechanisms usually allowing its support unit to reach the enemy lines undamaged because it draws all the attention most of the time (hormagaunts + warriors after raveners break the defence, slugga boyz, heretics, shotgun scouts).

Once you buy the manticore and use it to counter or wipe a setup the manti is still going to be a threat that has to be dealth with. It has multiple uses.

Well I mentioned that manticores aren't just about countering setup-teams. But sometimes I see people buy a manticore specifically to counter one annoying setup team. That setup team just retreats and by the time the manticore is ready to fire again that team once again causes problems and requires specific attention. But that is how games in retail worked. Spotters changed the whole thing but I wouldn't call them perfect. They have good things going about them but there are also bad things you just can't really discard. If we are to rate the effectivness of snipers/jump units/spotters then I would rate spotters the worst. This doesn't mean they are bad. They are actually good. But if we compare them to other races' means of setup-team countering and possible follow up forces then they definitely don't look like the best counter ever in the context of their T1 roster. This is what logic I use to justify AK stormtroopers' 40% extended range - cheap T2 compensation for the worst ability among other races to deal with setup teams.

[Dark Riku]

You also mentioned how vulnerable jump troops can be, while you risk nothing with spotters. Jumps are also more expensive and extremely more likely to bleed. The IG gunline will force off the setup too if you used the shell behind the setup.
I don't see an actual point on the manticore then other than players not using it well.

Non of these arguments warrants a buff to the upgrade, storm troopers are not just effective on setups.

[Nurland]

Not seeing the range buff really needed. AK ST have nades to compensate for that range loss. Making them more versatile. For example now they are good for ambushing solo cappers and set ups. They still do good dps and have a long range (that is crazy with LG buffs).

[Sub_Zero]

That is fucking BS...

Do you think that this slight difference in range justifies their 40 req per every lost model?!

And they have shitty infiltration like scouts do but scouts are a T1 unit whereas they are a T2 unit.

In retail they could stay way behind the backs of guardsmen. Look at this BS now...



P. S. For the love of god ignore the caption that was made out of sheer frustration...

[Dark Riku]

Do you think that this slight difference in range justifies their 40 req per every lost model?!

Yes, but not just for that reason.