Spec Ops Spam ~ A Quick post

[HandSome SoddiNg]

~ Just a suggestion about Spec ops ,the unit is cheap & affordable for an easy abusive spam for troll purposes like an invisible squadron of 3-4 Spec ops or as some ppl refer to em as super-scouts, maybe limiting em to one unit type like Paladins, just to prevent abusive usage? But, in return they get tweak with new niceties to compensate for it throughout the tiers? Are they any solutions or possible fixes for it

[Tex]

The only reasonable tweaks to ops I can think of in the current GK roster format would be:
(from most important to least important)

1) cloaking is tied to fallback plan upgrade, and ops start with stunbomb
2) Ops have damage reduced, or hp lowered. Either one will essentially have the same result in the early game
3) Ops cost changed to 290-30

[HandSome SoddiNg]

The only reasonable tweaks to ops I can think of in the current GK roster format would be:
(from most important to least important)

1) cloaking is tied to fallback plan upgrade, and ops start with stunbomb
2) Ops have damage reduced, or hp lowered. Either one will essentially have the same result in the early game
3) Ops cost changed to 290-30

I like option 1, option 2 their alry a fragile infantry type. Option 3 - I can see the upside,its still spammable .

[Toilailee]

Damage drop off at range, just like all other shotguns in game.

[saltychipmunk]

things to consider.

1ops dont have fotm, which means they have pretty awful chase potential
2ops are a very fragile unit despite having more hp than other squads of their pop zone
3the stun bomb is pretty much just as good as the the infiltration in certain scenarios you would be replacing on evil for another. it is a stun nade after-all and stun is one of the few disruptions that are still 100% effective,(no real counter stun abilities exist) . i would be willing too see if the change buffs them in enough areas that are mitigate-able and nerfs them in enough problem areas. worth a shot i suppose.


from my experience ops are extremely dangerous to players who do not cough up the dosh for an effective detector. HOWEVER once a detector is around the ops are far more fragile against other range blobs.

and while they themselves scale decently enough.. their upgrades do not. their squad leader is just a more expensive model that can blow up gens / buildings faster (which is almost redundant if you consider we ARE talking about a spam scenario... )

From my experience playing with and against them. they are extremely good at cheesing the spike damage ambush thing since 2 of them can eat off half too 70% of a low hp commanders hp in one volley. but again once you start getting detectors they become weaker.

naturally 1v1 changes things up since there are many more ways for a unit like ops to get around.

what if we reduced their movement speed that way we emphasize they are good ambush or support counter melee units but if they are exposed they become extremely vulnerable if left unsupported (since it will be very hard for them to disengage) just throwing a dart at the board with this one.

[Cyris]

Damage drop off at range, just like all other shotguns in game.

Of the 4 shotguns in the game (Scout, Cata, KNob, Ops), only Scouts have dropoff. Just sayin

I personally am in favor of most of the balance considerations Tex mentioned. Not all of them at once of course, and they need to be paired with some other T1 changes, but still. I'll add in some of my own ideas here:

4) Speed reduced to 5.5. +1 speed while cloaked. (Will make their ability to zip around the map more energy dependant)
5) Reload and damage tweaked so instead of 3s of damage followed by 3s of reload, it is 4 and 2. Net damage remains the same. (this would keep their dps the same, but reduce spike damage - which is a big part of what over preforms on them imo)
6) Remove friendly fire from Stun nades and reduce damage on shotguns more significantly (This would be focusing Ops as a more support and side capper then a damage dealer)
7) Reduce Shotgun damage and grant a 2nd CC ability (I dunno, a suppression shot? A slow?)

As many have said, a lot of why Ops seem to overpreform is because they try to fill many holes in the GK roster. Thy are an elusive, high damage, cheap unit with CC. Something has to give without overly exposing GK to melee rushdown or remove too much of their weak T1 CC.

[egewithin]

Ops can be game killing units. When I say I can't handle them, you guys are telling me to get tanks. Let me write down here what happens in case of pultiple of them ;

- They are bringing unfairly amounts of piercing damage instantly. In 3 wolleys, they decrease the helth of my CSM by nearly 70% CSM forced to retreat. There is even a worse scnerio if you lag. No unit hurts you this much in case of a single lag.

- Can not tie up in melee, they are too fast to kite away.
- Can not instantly focus down from range since they roam with infiltration.
- They killed your one or two squads, less man on the field in T1 means you loose map control.
- They can bash power pretty fast. You won't have the chance to bring a Dreadnought without ballsy power farms.
- You have to make a choice; build more genes with your req for tank or build more infantry. You chooce tank.
- GK brings annoying AV sniper guy or just psycannons and damages your Dread. Tanks needs to be repaired.
- You bring repair squad arpund your Dread but Ops instantly kill them in - a - single - wolley.
- Do not forget the possible stun bombs on Dread of cource.

What is the solution? I say a longer cool down on these shot guns.

[Dark Riku]

Stun bombs do not affect vehicles.

[Cyris]

General advise for fighting against Ops is to prioritize detection and some CC. Depends on the faction you are playing as. As IG, Catachans are the all in one solution for them. Rangers are key as eldar, as they both detect and can knock them over etc. Reality is that you will have to out-spend GK in T1 to counter these guys, but the longer matches go against Ops spam, the worse they become. Focus on not letting them get advantage early, and you can pull through.

Melee is stronger against them then you might think, if you setup engagements properly. With melee charge, Ops can't really outrun them as well as their base speed implies, and a lucky special will speed doom! Depends a lot on the squad though, and the attack angles.

[saltychipmunk]

Stun bombs do not affect vehicles.

very true , but then again..neither does knockback or suppression. but of the mechanics that affect infantry, stun is among the few that cant really be countered.. the other being various forms of movement impairment.

if you get stunned , you have to eat it or retreat from it. where as suppression has several forms of immunity mechanics available to infantry. as does knock back.

[Dark Riku]

I was not talking to you Salty.
Read the post above mine, it claims stun bombs stuns vehicles.

[saltychipmunk]

there are more than a few things wrong with that fellows post than just the quip of throwing them on a dread

[Dark Riku]

Maybe, but it was the only thing that was just undeniably wrong.

[Atlas]

I think the biggest problem is the 6.5 speed imo. I feel like just making it a speed 5.5 or 5 squad will do a lot to help alleviate the situation because considering they have 30 range (which is right on the border of detection for most units) it's not hard for it to quickly and easily move out of detection range after doing a ton of spike damage, then rinse and repeat.

Standard speed (5/5.5 depending) will make the lack of fotm a lot more significant and encourage ops to come closer, which should make the detection radius a little more forgiving.

Whatever is done to ops should be pretty small scale though imo. Too many changes at once makes it hard to see the actual effect of the change as opposed to the perceived effect.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

i think the problem lies with the range of their shotgun or maybe having a longer CD on their shotgun rate of firing,they just vaporize any t1 soft infantry very quickly. i guess only Eldar has the safest detection range on em

[saltychipmunk]

well there is an issue with reducing their spike damage.

They dont have an active counter melee ability as part of their purchase. scouts and cats get a knockback / suppressive skill as part of their shotgun package. That is what solidifies them as counter melee.

the ops dont get that so they need that damage potential to be effective counter melee or they will be no more or less effective in counter melee than simply going for an extra ist or strike.


right now the only thing making ops good counter melee on purchase is that spike damage and when not part of a main engagement their current movement speed.

[Codex]

That could be rectified by tweaking other values though, for example you could increase their base damage but give them range falloff, or you could remove stun bomb's friendly fire and make it native to the squad, and move infiltration to the upgrade.

Tweaks can be delivered in packages to deliver the desired effects.

[saltychipmunk]

very true, But i feel a small tweak should be tried first before we do things like changing start abilities or making non ff stun ( which would be stupid op..)

[egewithin]

Increase cooldown

give anti-melee ability

everyone happy

[Dullahan]

Operatives are fucking bullshit.

They're fully upgraded scouts with shotguns that do their full DPS at 28 range rather than 8 range (consume radius fyi), have slightly more health and cost half as much power. They're by far the most cost effective squad in t1.5.

Their damage is the biggest issue, but in general they really should cost more for what they do. No one else gets an infiltrating unit for 30 power, let alone one that moves at speed 6.5, does 60 RDPS (Yes, they're on par with warp spiders in terms of damage output.) and has utility stuns/suppression resistance.

Catachans in their prime have nothing on these guys.