Cost considerations for DA's

[Crewfinity]

Conclusion: give DA a melee charge for Khaine's sake.

0_o
Do you mean banshees?

[Asmon]

No it's meant to be absurd.

[Crewfinity]

ahh my mistake then.

Could you elaborate a bit on why banshees are less cost effective than before? it seems that with lower cost and more health in early T1 they would be faster to hit the field and have more impact, is the loss of the melee charge/chase potential really that big of a loss to make shees less of a threat?

Obviously they're worse at bleeding those last few models on retreat or getting those squad wipes, but in my experience they still pack quite a punch once they get stuck in. I'm absolutely awful at playing with eldar so I'm not aware of quite how much of an impact these changes have made.

but both shees and DA have recently had their health out of the gate buffed so it would seem to me that bleed should be less of a concern, at least in the early game.

[Dullahan]

No matter what the figures are, they cannot tell the truth by themselves.

Yeah how dare we let facts get in the way of discussion.

[Tex]

Banshees can't kill shit in retreat anymore. That's basically all Asmon was saying Crew.

So in terms of cost efficiency, Now that banshees are just better sluggas in T1, and then worse sluggas in T2, they bleed like any other melee screening squad, but don't have the chase potential to really shine and bleed your opponent back.

I 100% agree that DA's at 300 req combined with banshees having no charge has been rough times for eldar. It hasn't been just a meta shift, it truly has been an overall slight nerf.
My FS play has been affected by higher DA prices.
My Warlock play has been affected drastically by the loss of old school HoD.
Seems like only the WSE isn't too affected and that's because he is a crazy teleporting hero...

[saltychipmunk]

At first I thought I wouldn't interfere but then some pretty incorrect data came in. No matter what the figures are, they cannot tell the truth by themselves. Banshees are much less cost effective now, period. They have always bled and will keep doing so. That's their trait.

Yet now they don't bleed your opponent as much, and though many feel comfortable with this, it definitively made them so weak than DA become the T1 alternative for damage dealing. But how to kill anything with only one DA squad (apart from nades)? Hence the need for several DAs. And now we're losing more DA models than shees, merely because we have more DA.
.

ehhh, what banshees were doing before was just stupid looking as they chased units across and entire map to get kills . no other unit in the game could do it.

I don't consider it a nerf , i consider it fixing a broken mechanic. So they lost their cheese, they are still outstanding units that got more cost-effective outside of the stupidity that was retreat kill .

The whole point of eldar is to use an absurd amount of abilities and strategies to put the glass cannon units in their arsenal in optimal situations. but the pay off was simply too much for banshees prior to the nerf, let it go.

[Cyris]

I 100% agree that DA's at 300 req combined with banshees having no charge has been rough times for eldar. It hasn't been just a meta shift, it truly has been an overall slight nerf.

i consider it fixing a broken mechanic. So they lost their cheese, they are still outstanding units that got more cost-effective outside of the stupidity that was retreat kill.

I agree with these two statements (notably lacking is salty saying losing retrat killing wasn't a nerf, cause it was). Has it been too much of a nerf? I can't say, I don't know Eldar well enough for that. But I'm much happier we are in a world where shees ability to wipe has been reigned in. If Eldar need some more buffs to compensate, so be it. I thought 2.4 took a good stab at this with shee ost down, DA getting more health up front and Warlocks in T1 with short range detect. If a buff IS needed, I like my idea (how novel) of reducing Battle Equpment (or maybe even Aspect of Banshee). It helps focus DA as an ability focused unit, not one with a highly efficient stats when trading blows. Eldar should not BE a trade blows race, they should treat every remaining spark of Eldar life as sacred!

[saltychipmunk]

ehh i usually refrain from calling extreme changes to a unit to address something dramatically over performing a nerf . it would be like if cael accidentally added a zero to the ops dps and then later corrected that mistake by taking it away. I have a different set of language for that kind of change. but in the most technical of senses yes it was a reduction in power so to each his own definition of nerf.

[Cyris]

If it's not a bug-fix, and it reduces the potency of a unit, it's a nerf. What other definition do you have Shee's retreat wiping wasn't a bug, it was an important aspect of the unit that has been around for many years.

Whether you think shees over preformed or not (I don't), shees ability to threaten squad wipes was a large part of their impact on the battlefield. They demanded respect and careful play, cause you knew if you gave them an opening, they'ed wipe a squad. This aspect of them has been dramatically reduced, which I really can't see as a bug fix, it's a stright up nerf to one of their most important strengths.

That said, I think that strength was overall toxic, so I'm glad to see it go. But it's a big nerf to the unit, and to Eldars theme of "overwhelming, but fragile firepower". If they need more to help compensate for it, so be it. My personal jury is out.

[saltychipmunk]

well that relies on the concept that it was ever a good idea in the first place. which in my opinion it was not. to me it was always an issue that needed squashing that for whatever reason was left in.

[Asmon]

Lol at the ever living shee chase hate. Banshees had just that small speed bonus over most T2 melee squads that made their chase better. If anything that was the only thing to change. Yet it went utterly out of control and all of a sudden banshees have no melee charge, and a leap.

Let me be clear about that. No melee charge is awful. And no melee charge plus leap is worse. I won't make long sentences about how it destroys very fine shees micro. It is worse in most cases and results in more model losses. In T2 it makes you losing the exarch even more often.

Someone asked about how shees were nerfed although their hp got up. As I said before, they still win fights that they would've won before, and perhaps even some that they could've lost otherwise. But it doesn't matter as they cannot kill anything in retreat. Heroes can now retreat out of shees with more ease than any other T2 melee squad. Space Marines (for example) will lose less than half TSM or ASM models as before. Any squad that retreats through shees with more than 4 swings-to-die will survive. The hp boost that might make things a little easier in T1 is meaningless in T2 as shees are still the lowest T2 melee squad hp-wise.

I'd like also to mention that many T1 melee squads can be viable at more than 1 in T1. Despite their hp boost and lower cost, Banshees do not belong to those (at least at high skill level). They are still a core unit that cannot be purchased multiple time and will be a huge drawback if you lose them in late game as you cannot buy them again and try to compensate for the level loss.

The conclusion is that you're not at a disadvantage if you play without banshees now. Even vs heavy armored races.

I'd fix this by giving DA a melee charge and 40 DPS heavy melee per model (the exarch can remain unchanged).

[Dullahan]

Banshees can't kill shit in retreat anymore. That's basically all Asmon was saying Crew.

So in terms of cost efficiency, Now that banshees are just better sluggas in T1, and then worse sluggas in T2, they bleed like any other melee screening squad, but don't have the chase potential to really shine and bleed your opponent back.

What are you guys talking about them not being able to chase anymore? They can't follow you across the entire map, but they can still pick off plenty of models on retreat. They're still better at chasing and put out more damage than heretics, sluggas or hormagaunts in the exact same situation. Not to mention that they still have all the other advantages they had over those squads: 70 melee skill that makes them into commander boppers and power melee which makes them marine and slightly better against buildings than regular melee. They're also capable of suppressing a group of enemy infantry which more often than not will force a retreat. Only heretics can do that, but they have a much harder time getting to within melee range to do it due to their fragility and slower speed.

You guys are really under-selling banshees here.

[Asmon]

Please provide replays where shees kill something relevant on retreat. Without SwM. I for sure don't have any.

And you've clearly not tried out new sluggas, purifiers or KCSM.

[saltychipmunk]

do raptors , csm, tac , heretics , sluggas , shootas , guardians , guardsmen , sentinals , other banshees, asm , commanders and warrior ... squad wipes not count?

cause i think i see banshees pulling that off daily still.

frankly i find it hilarious that you add the bit about not using SwM,.... i mean this is eldar we are talking about. i am pretty sure the big race defining concept is use a ton of abilities to make your units powerful enough to win.

like guide, doom, swm , globals , etc... If we are seriously talking about unbuffed banshees here then wow.. wooooooooow....

[Codex]

Asmon I think is just saying that he believes the only good retreat chasing synergy is swift movement, and it's definitely the best. It's harder to achieve these kinds of squad wipes the higher level you go.

Anyway, the tone is getting a bit heated and I'm getting concerned so let's just dial it back a bit okay?

[saltychipmunk]

I think it is a misconception that being able to chase is the only way to wipe squads. It helps alot dont get me wrong. but considering the banshees damage type and damage potential , combined with the MANY different kinds of buffs eldar can apply to their damage , getting model kills with banshees need not be dependent on chase potential.

infact for the longest time my favorite method of squad wiping had nothing to do with chasing but rather to buff and debuff so much that the banshees just melt the squad before it takes 2 or 3 steps. That is still a viable practice.

But come on, it is absurd to say banshees were all chase. The fact of the matter is they were and still are a high damage, high melee skill unit with an excellent damage type and good stats in a race that is dedicated to leveraging units via abilities and buffs.

[Atlas]

... if they need some buffing I think the Battle Equipment price could be reduced. 65/15 could go to 50/15 or even 30/15 or 50/10, as a way to encourage Eldar players to maximize the strengths of the skills DA have. ...

.... general Shees can't chase comments...

Eldar:
Dire Avenger Aspect of Avenger cost changed from 65/15 to 50/15.
Dire Avenger Aspect of Avenger now increases Avenger HP from 120 to 140. (16.6% increase)
Dire Avenger Energy Shield energy cost increased from 45 to 55.
Howling Banshee health increased from 150 to 165. (10% increase)
Howling Banshee Aspect of Fleetness and Aspect of Strength no longer grants additional hp.
Howling Banshee Exarch now decreases Fleet of Foot melee damage penalty from 40% to 20% while Fleet of Foot is active.
Howling Banshee Aspect of Fleetness Exarch now passively increases squad melee skill by 1.

DA changes make them overall slightly tougher with the Aspect of Avenger than they were before the patch. (DAs could reach 133 hp with AoA pre 2.4, with ^ it would be 140 hp with AoA plus the possibility of getting an exarch) To compensate slightly for increased toughness, Energy Shields are a little less energy friendly to slightly discourage Shield usage.

Banshees get all their health out of the gate instead of requiring the upgrade, leaving slightly more resources to go elsewhere while keeping banshees effective. Fleet of Foot has a slightly relaxed melee damage penalty to make up for the lack of a charge.

AoF gets a slight buff with the melee skill bonus on its exarch to make them more viable in melee fights while keeping that bonus to T2/3. It could possibly encourage more AoF plays and possibly make buying shees in T2 viable as the upgrade can compensate for the lack of exp.


??? Workable?

[saltychipmunk]

cant we just make the aspect upgrade cheaper?

make it 40 - 10 but keep the guardians squishier than before?
I kind of like how the lock is for durability and staying power and the aspect is for utility. the aspect just needs to be a little cheaper and it should be good too go.

and banshees are fine.


this is a DA cost efficiency thread we really should not be talking about buffing other units or even buffing the stats of the DA's

[Lichtbringer]

Here is something I felt with Banshees:
I feel like you need the Aspectupgrade even more now that they have no meleecharge, because if you don't have fleet of foot, or warshout, enemys can kite them without fail. The meleecharge is not only important for retreatkilling, but also for NOT getting kited by enemys that you already reached in melee.

After the changes I thought: Lets use Banshees as a cheapsquad, to maybe hunt some lone squads on the map and win 1v1s. Bad Idea without the Aspect. Maybe I should try using them in fights without upgrades. But then they don't have the bonus health which makes this Idea pretty bad too. +even in a big clash they can be easily kited.

Just a feeling (wanting to use them as cheap lonesquads) and a thought about kiting and aspect.

[saltychipmunk]

sounds to me like we need a banshee thread then.

[Lichtbringer]

sounds to me like we need a banshee thread then.

I started typing my post before yours was posted to clear that up. So I didn't want to ignore what you wrote ^^

But on the topic, I think DA performance/price is closely linked to the banshee performance, aswell as rangers/shurikens and the Hero.
Because Banshees and DAs were changed last patch, I think it is especially usefull to talk about both these units when trying to assess the state of DAs, AND the state of the Eldar earlygame/earlygame BOs.

On the other hand, you are right with that what I said in my last post would be better fitted for a Banshee Thread.