Eldar nerfs

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Torpid
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Eldar nerfs

Postby Torpid » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 3:20 am

Eldar are little too strong atm in their own niches. Certain abilities seem to be getting either buffed unnecessarily or their true strength is being ignored.

Warp throw - This ability leads to some extremely easy wipes. Any thing that you can click and it gives you wipes is great, but as an ability that can be used in every engagement it's a bit much. The combinations are endless, warp throwing set-up teams to make them useless, throwing into shees, wraithlords, wraithguard attack ground, grenades, wailing dooms, autarch bombs, even eldritch storms if you pull off a good throw on their entire army (which is very possible, at least in team games). It really puts the warlock in very little danger at all by casting it, the animation is also quite quick and has a good range, it's effectively uncounterable, you use it from behind your army. Suppress->throw into a grenade + FoF shees to finish. It's too damn easy for a t2 upgrade. Besides the warlock's other accessories are noticeably bad at least compared to his fellow eldar heroes.

Solution: Make the wargear t3 as it's effectively an aoe menacing visage.

Swift movement - Same premise as before, it's a highly clickable active that guarantees wipes on not only infantry but also vehicles. It's unique to the warlock, but I'm not any other ability for it's cost is quite as good. I mean malignant blindness costs 125 red and it rarely saves units lives. AOD costs 200 red. The commissar flare costs 75 red but it all it does is allow allied ranged units to beat one particular ranged blob or set-up team at ranged. The hellfury strike costs 150 red and serves primarily as a retreat killer/anti garrsion (it's other purposes are about as effective as using swift movement not for wipes and just utility), but at best this thing can only kill t1 inf squads or other units with <50hp. Swift movement shees with autarch support can kill HI squads with 2k hp :D

Solution: Either increase it's red cost to something like 125/150, or make it like fleet of foot so that once active all units do 30% less damage. It's too effective for it's clickability.

Webway gates - Quite frankly the amount of map control these things grant is still too effective for their price. Exp is great and all but it's effect is very slow and small compared to full gen bashes, wipes and the vast amount of map control these things offer, heck the exp + red gained from destroying gates isn't worth the map control alone, nevermind if they get wipes with them (think farseer gates, or just shees out of gates in retreat path, or avenger nades). Many a game have I played where the eldar player is literally hanging onto the game purely on the basis of gates. Swat does this so often, it's extremely frustrating. I once had a game where I wiped the majority of his army in early t2 and it was 400-100 but he managed to drag it down to 100-0 before he lost purely by spamming webway gates and banshees w/ wraithguard alongside his WSE capping everything. It matters not that he had no power as these units are power cheap and the thing is it requires a large force to take down a single shee squad, especially with WG support and with multiple hopping all over the place it was silly. I once saw him building 3 gates in a very similar proximity simultaneously, if he can do that well it's just ridiculous. You've gotta remember you also get so much red from losing a gate so the cost is absolutely nothing.

Solution: Increase red cost to 75, increase the cooldown on the global. Not sure what to do with the exp change/build time nerf.

Wraithlord brightlance - This has already been mentioned in the 2.2 beta thread, but I want to revive the discussion surrounding it as it's a serious balance issue atm I feel. I believe the BL was too weak before as the opportunity cost of getting the brightlance and not the shuriken was too high. However the wraithlord is far too effective now at killing vehicles. A haywire+BL WL will easier destroy tanks since once it gets close enough to melee a vehicle once well the vehicle dies from that BL. It also makes transport play relatively useless vs eldar, now the falcon does this for a 45 power less while offering a reinforcement but not doing quite as a good of a job vs vehicles, yet the WL w/ BL still is a very potent melee walker. Add in farseer abilities such as guide/doom/fortune and the thing turns into a monster, able to kill tanks solo so long as the tank misclicks forward JUST ONCE.

Solution: change the FOTM to 75% accuracy instead of 100%.

What do y'all think about this?
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Kvek » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 7:33 am

Warp Throw aka another elderp bullshit.
I saw so many easy squad wipes just because the squad got warp throwed, and before eldar players start saying "but it's not easy to use", it is you just click, choose direction where to throw the unit, and kill them with shees/something that Torpid mentioned.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby FiSH » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 8:42 am

warp throw - the cast radius is within sight radius. radius 12. that's it. just 12. if you are paying attention, you will see the warlock walk in, just walk away. the cast can't be canceled, so... yeah.
people don't seem to have trouble with sigil, despite it being T1, cast radius is much much much longer, can be casted into fog of war, is much more flexible in that it can teleport allies as well as foes, just because it comes out a little slower than warp throw, and yet they're good at dodging it despite when the sorc is cloacked, 60 radius away, or something like that. honestly, just watch wl. radius 12 is pretty short.



swift movement - i agree that swift movement is very powerful. however, banshees already do quite a lot of reduced damage on retreat. increasing the red cost to 125/150 will only be justified if the banshee damage on retreat is reverted. if it acts like fleet of foot, swift movement and fleet of foot should stack (i suggest the damage penalty be multiplicative.)
also, i have no clue why you are comparing this global to some of the other ones in such obviously biased manner. commi flare can save your precious vehicle for example, hellfury has a potential to wipe multiple squads/can be used as an area denial.


webway - rhymes with gay. :lol:


wraithlord brightlance - while i see the reasoning behind people's arguements, i would love to see some games/replays where WL BL outperforms. haven't seen one yet, so still not convinced.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Kvek » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 9:56 am

The only thing you can see is a warlock doing it, you can't actually see where the warp throw will be.
If you don't move out of it, usually a squad wipe...
Also if the warlock is not a total jerk, he will probably combine it with something, suppression/kinetic pulse/war shout.

quite a lot of reduced damage ? They are like the best retreat killers even now.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Ace of Swords » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 12:03 pm

Warp throw
Well this is probably the most OP wargear in the whole game, it's not even hard to use once you try a couple of times, but i guess it's not seen a such because a few players try to dare with it or experiment with it, and between the fact that the game has quite alot of years by now and the little use that is done of it, people just got used to it.

And no, WL's other accessories aren't bad at all.


Swift movement

tbh this global doesn't change much, whatever is going to die to it would die to FoF shees anyway, despite damage reductions and all, what i don't understand why for just 75 red it affects not only all of your units in a click, but even all the allied units on the map, it should be a buff limited to a single squad imo.

Webway gates

xp can be revered to what it was, 75 red + the actual build time would be good enough.

Wraithlord brightlance

yeah this is plain broken, especially this change wasn't made keeping in mind what the FS does.

If transports were usable before, especially in 1v1 vs eldar now it's just impossible, and a BL WL will win easily against a Tdred, because it will deal just sightly less damage on approach but full melee damage.
Last edited by Ace of Swords on Sun 18 Aug, 2013 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby PhatE » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 12:41 pm

I'll just go by each bolded point so I can offer my thoughts

Warp throw - This is quite situational, whilst the potential to do a large amount of damage is there, it can fall flat really hard in a lot of circumstances I wouldn't say it's entirely a balance concern but more that some players find it hard to know when it's coming since they don't see the dance or don't click on the warlock to see if they purchased it. It's also difficult to know exactly where the units caught will slide making grenade/autarch quite inaccurate (most times).

But granted you make a valid point that it can do extreme amounts of damage when there are banshees and the like there to rain down some hurt. However fish also makes a good point as well the cast range is quite small so it's hard to miss if you are paying attention. Especially when the WL is banking on that move the entire game you see trends in the players behaviour.

Swift movement - I feel that this is just ok as to where it is, I find the issue more with the Eldar race in general (broken record incoming), and that banshee's benefit from this a little too much. On top of it being applied to everyone on the same team.

But you have to consider that they can't just spam it at any time they want, this isn't like the current state of Webway Gates where you can pop as many as you like. In fact I feel that in some ways having it as is makes them use it more often meaning that there is far less red to build gates.

But granted again I think it's still a concern to be thought about, it's just it stacking with the sprint/charge of banshees which I feel is a little over the top.

Webway gates - Still really strong, although I do like that they give me more XP and that the build time was increased, it really helps with seeing where they are. Which is what was the biggest annoyance for me since I couldn't see when they were being built since they finish before I take my eyes off the fight.

But having said this they, as you've mentioned, offer a huge deal of MC. It wasn't even that they could cap anywhere they pleased it was more that entire armies transported across the entire map in practically no time at all. Eldar were fast enough but on top they just instant transmission any place. This is really the case for team games, those maps are huge, travel distance is 0 and your team mates can go in as well. It's one big get out of jail free card as well, why hit retreat when I can FoF to the gate and then my base?

I'd say that the increase to 75 red is reasonable but having the build time reduced by 5 seconds from 25 to 20. That's just an idea since we're in beta I wouldn't mind seeing it done like this, but if gates became unseen I'm sure everyone would celebrate and drink to it, but I'd revert the change to what it is now.

Even if it stayed at 50 red they need something there to stop the spam i.e a cooldown of at least 30 seconds or something, I'm finding that in the first 5 minutes (in many cases less) that I have near 100 red and I can just pop down two simultaneously, medean cliff mines is a really good example for this. If I can get my team mate to go south and get vision down the bottom right, the gate is out of sight. I can offer an entire armies support in a next to nothing amount of time, it doesn't give any chance at holding the power. If there's a counter bash then we can both hop into the gate and defend really easily.

So the biggest issue I feel is that currently there's no cooldown, team mates can use them, and they have an ability that works per gate meaning I can pop the ability anywhere there's a gate (the warlock gate is the one that I think is the most powerful in this situation.

Wraithlord brightlance - Not too sure about this one, Id' say decrease the range on the bright lance for now? Haven't really seen this fight yet with the change so I don't have an opinion as of yet
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Torpid » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 1:28 pm

FiSH wrote:warp throw - the cast radius is within sight radius. radius 12. that's it. just 12. if you are paying attention, you will see the warlock walk in, just walk away. the cast can't be canceled, so... yeah.
people don't seem to have trouble with sigil, despite it being T1, cast radius is much much much longer, can be casted into fog of war, is much more flexible in that it can teleport allies as well as foes, just because it comes out a little slower than warp throw, and yet they're good at dodging it despite when the sorc is cloacked, 60 radius away, or something like that. honestly, just watch wl. radius 12 is pretty short.

swift movement - i agree that swift movement is very powerful. however, banshees already do quite a lot of reduced damage on retreat. increasing the red cost to 125/150 will only be justified if the banshee damage on retreat is reverted. if it acts like fleet of foot, swift movement and fleet of foot should stack (i suggest the damage penalty be multiplicative.)
also, i have no clue why you are comparing this global to some of the other ones in such obviously biased manner. commi flare can save your precious vehicle for example, hellfury has a potential to wipe multiple squads/can be used as an area denial.


The problem with warp throw is that it happens to quickly and has such a wide radius. Sigil is also extremely powerful and I'm not sure 20 power is expensive enough for it, but that's another story. Fleet lock in from the side with banshees and cloak of shadows them throw a set-up team up your way, then instantly massacre it with your very ranged-resistant banshees. Or simply suppress the enemy force with your shuriken wall then throwthem into your shurikens+grenades. Or wait for a melee brawl to begin charge in with your shees scream so they are suppressed and throw them backwards into a nade allowing your shees to finish them off. In all these scenarios (which excludes the generic scenario whcih requires you to spot the animation) it doesn't matter whether you spot the animation or not, the only counter is to hit retreat (menacing visage basically) or your squad is wiped. That's too strong for t2, it just has to much impact on the vehicular play when they can just throw set-up teams away, instantly making them retreat.
Also, the ability doesn't need to always be used offensively, you can use it to throw ogryns off your wraithguard and then return a volley of WG attack ground on them, that's fun. You can throw jump units away from your set-up teams and in front them. Basically for 30 power and t2 the ability is far too versatile and far too effective.

Regarding swift movement I don't see why the banshee damage would need to be reverted if swift movement costs 125, I mean FoF and then SM when that ends is so strong atm, and it's not just banshees, fire dragons with FoF are very good against walkers, also brightlances where you just wouldn't be able to catch up normally you can iwth swift movement killing walkers. Now the point of my comparisons is that the number of occurences in which SM can lead to a wipe is far far far higher than any other global - yes hellfury can kill squads, but it is far far less likely, maybe once a game, if lucky, I find myself getting squad wipes with swift movement every 2 engagements against decent foes. I mean the red you get from wiping tacs with a sergeant nearly covers the cost of the global itself, it's just too cheap for what it does, no other global at that price has as much impact on the overall game, sure flare may be great in one engagement, or might once save that vehicle and in that scenario it was worth more than 75red, however most of the time it really isn't, you just use it to force off a set-up team, but it might not even do that, it might just make them re-set up.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby FiSH » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 2:42 pm

i wasn't saying try to dodge the warp throw, because that's hard. rather, dodge warlock. you wouldn't want to let that guy close in anyways, right? i do agree that this is one of the best accessories in the game, but it's not something that is braindead-broken or undodgeable (like subjugate).


yes, swift movement is very powerful, but i don't really see problem with what it does. it's not a immediate i-win-this-engagement-because-my-banshees-are-nobs button. it's a punishment mechanism following a well-executed fight from the eldar player. if something is in some danger of wiping against swift movement banshees, well too bad, you clearly overextended the unit without proper backup.
the closest global in terms of functionality is probably catalyst, and when comparing the two, ace's suggestion seems reasonable. (the global icon even just shows banshees, ha)
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Kvek » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 2:53 pm

How the fuck you want to dodge the warlock all the time ?
In an important engagment, he will be there ready to simply force off your units.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Torpid » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 3:17 pm

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of warp throw. You aren't meant to fleet your warlock forward into an entire army and throw them at you, that's retarded. You do it from a position where it is 100% uncounterable bar a retreat, otherwise you're wasting it. Do it in the middle of a melee brawl, do it on suppressed foes, do it out of infiltration etc etc. Ultimately with rangers, d cannons and shurikens the foe has to eventually come to YOU in order to win, when they do they get suppressed, the ASM jump your shuri so you throw them backwards into another and banshees while the front one resets up behind a shield behind your other one. The asm have to retreat at some point and they don't do anything all becuase of warp throw. Otherwise they could just chop away at the front shuri then jump the back one then get a heal by the apo and retreat after the shotgun kb on the shees. The problem is that the wargear breaks the fundamentals of this game. The game is all about unit positioning. One unit being in the wrong position in an engagement means you lose the whole fight.

It's cheaper than subjugate, affects more squads than subjugate, doesn't leave the caster extremely vulnerable unlike subjugate and is t2 unlike subjugate.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 4:11 pm

Gonna be short because a lot of things have already been said.

FiSH wrote:warp throw - the cast radius is within sight radius. radius 12. that's it. just 12. if you are paying attention, you will see the warlock walk in, just walk away. the cast can't be canceled, so... yeah.
people don't seem to have trouble with sigil, despite it being T1, cast radius is much much much longer, can be casted into fog of war, is much more flexible in that it can teleport allies as well as foes, just because it comes out a little slower than warp throw, and yet they're good at dodging it despite when the sorc is cloacked, 60 radius away, or something like that. honestly, just watch wl. radius 12 is pretty short.

You can't just walk away from it midst battle -.-

People DO have a problem with sigil. The fact that it bugs makes it a problem.
If the bug would get fixed it would be fine. Since you can see the portal in advance. Enough time to react. (Unless setups due to bug atm.)

Gayts are still too good, increase to 75 red should help.

Swift movement still lets you wipe stuff you shouldn't be able to.
Not ok.

Ace of Swords wrote:And no, WL's other accessories aren't bad at all.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Codex » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 4:56 pm

Solution: Make the wargear t3 as it's effectively an aoe menacing visage.


lol, I remember back in the day when warp throw was a T1 wargear. If we decide that it belongs in T3 (which I don't agree is the solution mind you), then it would just go to show how clueless Relic balance team were/are.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Torpid » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 4:58 pm

Warlock accessories certainly aren't bad (channelling runes/heart of darkness), what they are however are comparatively bad to warp throw, spirit stones, shimmer orbs and grav grenades. All of the aforementioned wargears provide abilities which alone can change the course of an engagement. Channelling runes cancertainly do that early on, however they quickly lose their effectiveness as the game progresses, heart of darkness would very rarely change a losing fight into a winning one. Targetting finders, runes of reaping and mind war are also great in that they scale better and make more of impact overall than runes/heart.

I'm not saying the other warlock accessories need to be buffed, just at the moment I really see no reason to ever get them instead of warp throw and considering they're relatively balance that says a lot. If menacing visage was made t3 why wasn't warp throw?
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Torpid » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 5:02 pm

Codex wrote:
Solution: Make the wargear t3 as it's effectively an aoe menacing visage.


lol, I remember back in the day when warp throw was a T1 wargear. If we decide that it belongs in T3 (which I don't agree is the solution mind you), then it would just go to show how clueless Relic balance team were/are.


What do you suggest then codex? The reason why I suggest to make it t3 is because there is no way to balance it. The nature of the ability is fundamentally flawed in this game. Controlling where your opponents units are in one active is very strong, just like aoe invincibility or stuns are.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Codex » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 7:46 pm

The reason I didn't propose an alternative solution is because I'm still brewing on it. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

And I would argue that in some ways Menacing Visage is more annoying/impactful than warp throw, especially if it is in T2. There have been many a game in 1v1 as LA vs Orks where my opponent is naive/forgetful/whatever enough to rush Nobz against me. The possibility of building Menacing Visage alone should be enough to stop Orks building Nobz unless they are happy to buy 2 Nobz for the efficiency of one Nob squad.

For this reason I only partially agree with your comparison between warp throw and menacing visage. The former is better against fragile/lower tier infantry, for a one-two punch combo to wipe squads or put them in an unfavourable fight. The latter is better against elite squads (e.g. Nobz, Ogryns)/key infantry units (e.g. detectors, melee buffer), taking them directly out of the fight and exposing the supporting army.

Tbh I don't find channeling runes that effective, they're relatively easy to counter, and as a result I rarely buy them. I do find it's good as a utility item, but whenever I've seen other people using it they always put it on their banshees in the heat of battle.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 18 Aug, 2013 8:27 pm

Warp Throw
It's a bit OP, and even more in expert hands. I'm not talking only about the Warp Throw + Plasma grenade, Warp Throw + Autarch grenades or Warp Throw + Banshees. Warp Throw synergies well with the almost entire Eldar army. And this only watching the offensive aspect of the ability.

Like the CS Subjugate, as Torpid has said, for the design of the ability its difficult to balance it.

IMHO there are few possible options.
- Reduce the range of the ability to reduce his offensive power but keeping the defensive one.
- Increase the cast time/make the cast animation more visible and put a eldar marker in the selected area which is going to be warpthrowed.
- Make the ability affect only one squad.

Eldar Webways
I'd already said it a lot of things: return to the 2.1 version and increase the cost to 80-85 red.

Wraithlord Brightlance

Reduce the accuracy to 50-60%.
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Re: Eldar nerf

Postby Black Relic » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 1:37 am

Warp throw is fine If you dont like it suggest a longer cast time or have it "throw" a shorter range but i dont really need to be changed i dont think. Webway gate i would say 75 red as before but with increasing red with every webway gate on the field (for the controlling player though). Maybe increase by 25. So the first would be 75 and the next for the same player would be 100. add with a cooldown of 15 or 18 second between each use.

As for the Wraithlord's Brightlance. I would keep it a 100 accuracy on the move with it being a default of 75dps keeping its melee splash. If people want it to do more say 110 dps. I would but take away the wraithlord melee splash. For many upgrades in the game dow2 you sacrifice one efficiency for another. The only units were it only get better and better are Nobs and the best way to take care of them is knock them down forever.

But eldar doent need to be changed in my opinion. Their units a relatively weak to even small arms fire and need quite a bit of micro to be effective with them.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Kvek » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 8:11 am

If warp throw is fine, then sigil teleporting retreating units is fine too.
How can an ability that has a very high chance of wiping squads if you hit be fine ?
Also it's t2, and can be in many different ways.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby FiSH » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:55 am

Kvek wrote:If warp throw is fine, then sigil teleporting retreating units is fine too.

that makes absolutely no sense.

if warp throw had a longer cast time, it will not combo at all with providence with the recent fixes to it. as it is right now, you do like 2 warp throw -> slash, and providence is over. if the cast time is increased, providence will basically be useless. thus, if warp throw were to have longer cast time, i'd suggest also increase providence duration.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Kvek » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 12:12 pm

Sigil transporting retreating units=easy squad wipes.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby FiSH » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 4:01 pm

I had some opinions on other eldar related things, but didn't just want to create a whole new topic while this one is going on, so here goes:

pathfinder gear - this upgrade is too cheap imo. the rangers virtually don't have to bleed and can stay on the field forever as long as your micro can support it at only the cost of 50/10 iirc. the req cost of the upgrade should be more like 65 of 75.

guardian warlock leader - this upgrade is also too cheap. dire avenger exarch is one of the buffest units out there, can leap and disrupt, gives you embolden, and is only 15 power? too cheap imo.

wraithguard warlock leader - this guy should really not have the leap. you try to tie wraithguards in melee with horma, and all of a sudden hormas are on the ground and get wiped. they are supposed to be weak in melee, not knock over other units.

banshee exarch - can the banshee exarch be just a little bit more buff? sure she brings a lot of dps, gives fleet a new edge, but compare her to stormboy/slugga nob or even dire avenger exarch. she dies ALL THE TIME, in part because of the health she has is not much higher than other banshee models, and also in part because of the banshee formation. for 25 power, i'd like my exarch to not be a #1 source of power bleed.

warp spider exarch - same deal with banshees. any health buff on this guy would be very appreciated. especially since eldar are a lot more fluid in their AV response in elite, getting warp spiders can be rather bad. they bleed a lot if played improperly for just a second already.

shimmer orb - is it possible to make the changes to the shimmer orb that were planned by working with thomas or (so that allies can shoot from within) make its affected radius bigger? as it is, the only use that this wargear has are saving your own things from dying while it is walking away, or deploying it on the enemy range blob. both of the uses are not buffed significantly with the changes i've proposed, and with that change the wargear can be used in more various ways - such as letting banshees close in inside the orb.

rune armor - wow this thing is powerful. imo either the duration of psychic storm is too long or the cast radius is rather long.

cloak of shadows - please revert the ability to toggle, as it is right now, the ability is extremely energy inefficient and not as versatile as it used to be. not knowing exactly when the ability is going to run out without counting is rather annoying.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Kvek » Mon 19 Aug, 2013 6:09 pm

I just had a game with Storm of Steel Warlock vs Warboss (i was WL)
And i would like to post something about Merciless Witchblade.

This thing counters all ork commanders (basically every commander that can be knocked down)
Gives the WL an awesome special attack, drains energy, and gives like 67dps_melee.

This thing is worth the cost it has, even without the ranged attack.
The ranged attack functions similiarly to the Full auto, but doesn't have a kd, but it can miss (usually doesn't.)

I do not think it should disable heroes like TM/apo (just those that can be knocked down) so easily, and also give the warlock the awesome melee special/damage and the energy drain.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 4:03 am

what's your issue with psychic storm specifically? i generally find it ok but certainly not op.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Black Relic » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 4:25 am

I agree with the pathfinder gear. It should be more expensive. But also lower the rangers keen sight by that closer to the scout sergeant but a little higher of course.

To me that is the only issue with eldar.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby FiSH » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 4:47 am

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:what's your issue with psychic storm specifically? i generally find it ok but certainly not op.

Let's first look at the numbers. It basically suppresses instantly after the rune appears, has like 30 cast radius (not sure about exact number, but quite large radius), and does 108 power melee damage over 8 seconds in a reasonable area. units basically cannot get out of its affected area because of the suppression it does.

and all this is not accounting for the fact that farseer can guide herself, which further increases that damage. now you have a support commander that is capable of mass anti-infantry from a safe distance, can be hiding around a line of sight blocker and cast a very powerful spell. due to the nature of the spell, it can even be area-denial. some people seem to think warp throw is a ranged aoe menacing visage, well, here is another one that doesn't even need to be comboed, and is very easy to combo with anyways due to the forever suppression.

on the top of that, rune armor gives huge energy/health/regen bonus, is only 130/25 power. just wow. almost pales the asuryan armor in comparison.

suggestion: lower the damage or decrease the suppression duration.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 6:16 am

i don't think it's been changed in several patches and i never found it to do that much damage. i also find that is avoidable although once something is caught it doesn't get out. tbh i haven't used it in a while but i never found it to be a huge game changer. i think part of the issue is that it's (was? :) ) bound to the same hotkey as the weapons and i kept accidentally using it. i'm pretty sure it's psychic damage though, not power melee.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 12:43 pm

FiSH wrote:
Kvek wrote:If warp throw is fine, then sigil teleporting retreating units is fine too.

that makes absolutely no sense.

if warp throw had a longer cast time, it will not combo at all with providence with the recent fixes to it. as it is right now, you do like 2 warp throw -> slash, and providence is over. if the cast time is increased, providence will basically be useless. thus, if warp throw were to have longer cast time, i'd suggest also increase providence duration.
Yeah that comparison doesn't make much sense to me either.

Yeah invulnerability and the ability to spam whatever abilities he has sucks if we would make warp throw a little bit more balanced.... -.-


Pathfinder Gear
I actually think it's quite fine as it is. And that's coming from me :p
I would like to see a change in their firing rate though to 10-12 seconds.

Dire Avenger Exarch
Again price seems fine to me.
But as you said for wraithgaurds this one shouldn't do that kb leap either.

Wraithguard Warlock Leader
FiSH wrote: this guy should really not have the leap. you try to tie wraithguards in melee with horma, and all of a sudden hormas are on the ground and get wiped. they are supposed to be weak in melee, not knock over other units.
+1

Banshee Exarch
FiSH wrote:can the banshee exarch be just a little bit more buff? sure she brings a lot of dps, gives fleet a new edge, but compare her to stormboy/slugga nob or even dire avenger exarch. she dies ALL THE TIME, in part because of the health she has is not much higher than other banshee models, and also in part because of the banshee formation. for 25 power, i'd like my exarch to not be a #1 source of power bleed.
No she can not. You already mentioned the reasons why she can't be.
It's the same "problem" that all other races have with squad leaders.

Warp Spider's Exarch
FiSH wrote:same deal with banshees. any health buff on this guy would be very appreciated. especially since eldar are a lot more fluid in their AV response in elite, getting warp spiders can be rather bad. they bleed a lot if played improperly for just a second already.
See Banshees. You aren't supposed to get rewarded for improper play.

Rune Armor
I have mixed feelings about this one. Yes it's very (too?) effective vs let's say blobbed up termagaunts. But on the other hand it disables the farseer as well.

Cloak of Shadows
FiSH wrote:please revert the ability to toggle, as it is right now, the ability is extremely energy inefficient and not as versatile as it used to be. not knowing exactly when the ability is going to run out without counting is rather annoying.
It got changed because it was too good? How is it energy inefficient?
Rather annoying doesn't count. "I need to count" isn't a valid reason -.-
You, for example, also need to count for the cloaking ability for the inquisitor.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Kvek » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 2:52 pm

Had a game against Metroidd, he bought a tdread to counter my WL, i bought brightlance and the Tdread was basically dead.
Just moved forward took three missiles started bashing it in melee, he tried to run but he couldn't do shit because of the BL...

This thing needs to have reduced accuracy
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby no-name » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 4:32 pm

Kvek wrote:Had a game against Metroidd, he bought a tdread to counter my WL, i bought brightlance and the Tdread was basically dead.
Just moved forward took three missiles started bashing it in melee, he tried to run but he couldn't do shit because of the BL...

This thing needs to have reduced accuracy

i observed that game. his dred was getting double-teamed by a brightlance weapon team and wraithlord+bl every time and wasn't supported at all except once by a repairing plague champion. it's no wonder he lost both of them.

Regarding warp throw, the best solution imo is to make it's cool-down longer, in order to make the player make it count every time but not in every engagement. The point about it not being usable with providence could be off-set by buffing the warlocks speed while the ability is active.

Rune armour is nice if you get someone caught in it but there is time to move away if you're paying attention, though an extra half a second delay would make things easier. It only really punishes you heavily if you are blobbing as well, the range on that ability is good but it's not so far that you can't focus fire the hero with your other units since the farseer will more than likely be exposed. Otherwise it's just good play.

Regarding gates, if you're going to up the red cost then there's no need for an increased build-time. Also, there are readily available spotters for every army except eldar so dealing with gates seems to me more a case of being moer conservative with your map control. After winning an engagement instead of your whole army capping, have one unit capping while you have a spotter and back-up check the nearest nooks and crannies.
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Re: Eldar nerfs

Postby Kvek » Tue 20 Aug, 2013 5:24 pm

cooldown wouldn't fix anything, one good warp throw=dead unit, and that is totally NOT fair.

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