Fire Dragons

[Sub_Zero]

Come on, is this idea not worth even a single comment?

[Laplace's Demon]

Come on, is this idea not worth even a single comment?

That is a good solution. Big micro requirements though on a micro heavy race.

[Adeptus Noobus]

After having played vs FireDragons a few times I must say they are simply too fast. This of course comes from the perspective of a SM main. IF people get Fire Dragons they usually come in pairs which is a huge problem. Since they have their Dragonscale, they take less reduced dmg. The best counter to them is to tie them up in melee combat. This scenario happened to me the last time I encountered 3 of them at the same time: They ran out of the FoW towards my Dreadnought, which I immediately moved back. I in turn moved everything towards them to tie them up in melee combat but it just won't work. They are simply too fast and with their fotm they most definitely got the Dreadnought. The amount of Focus Fire it would take to take down 3 FDs is just too much. Tying them up does also not work because Eldar have very effective counter-initiation tools. My main issue with them yet is not their tankiness but their speed. Such a unit simply should not be that fast or immune to ALL sorts of KB. Let them be tanky but either slow them down or not immune to all sorts KB but just a few. This would also mean, that you do not have to resort to remodelling this unit, like SubZero wants to.

Could somebody with more knowledge about the Eldar race get back to me on this one?

[Sub_Zero]

But this is such a good idea, come on! I would love to use this unit after such a change, now I just can't stand it, so horrendously strong, annoyed when I see them and feel bad when I use them myself. And they are always used in pairs due to that very cheap cost. Too damn strong against everything for a unit whose focus is AV and really broken stats if we consider the cost and the tier-position.

[Aguxyz]

I used fire dragons today and wiped 3 termis of SM/Chaos they're nuts with buffs etc etc









ELDAR

[Swift]

I used fire dragons today and wiped 3 termis of SM/Chaos they're nuts with buffs etc etc

I think you're omitting Riku's Manticore strike and demolisher cannon that brought them down to 10% health.

[Aguxyz]

I used fire dragons today and wiped 3 termis of SM/Chaos they're nuts with buffs etc etc
I think you're omitting Riku's Manticore strike and demolisher cannon that brought them down to 10% health.

I still wiped them

[Dullahan]

IMO these guys are ridiculous. More DPS than other similar squads, with an ability to further increase DPS. Then their squad leader gives them the highest range melta guns in the fucking game, allowing them to shoot up to range 28. Melta guns are traditionally balanced by being short range weaponry, but with a Farseer and the squad leader you're looking at range 36 melta guns with 100% fire on the move accuracy when they pop their ability and very high DPS. Not to mention they are speed 6.5. They're anti-everything for a very cheap cost and no drawbacks since they have the highest rank of any melta gun type unit even without buffs.

So, there's a few identifiable problems with this unit (ignoring that they shouldn't even exist in the Eldar army to begin with)

1. Their damage is too high.
2. Their range is ludicrous for a fire on the move, speed 6.5 unit. In comparison, Banshees are 5.5. Why do these guys move so fast again?
3. They're super durable for Eldar, getting 30% ranged damage resist and knockback immunity on top of having 180 hp per member and a fucking 350 hp squad leader which only cost them 75/15. They're heavy infantry with none of the drawbacks (slow speed, vulnerability to power weapons).
4. Only cost 360/30 to field. Remember when Eldar needed things like Banshee exarchs, warp spider haywire grenade or a brightlance to counter vehicles? Lol, not anymore. Purchasing these guys lets Eldar counter any vehicle with a single unit since they can easily outrun any vehicle that manages to get anywhere near them.

If that wasn't enough, they also receive 30% less range damage because fuck you (stacks with avatar aura I presume.) and complete knockback immunity which means you can't even fucking CC them.

They are an absolute no brainer purchase. With their current stats, they should be in Tier 3 and cost atleast double the power.

[Adeptus Noobus]

They are infantry fire resist only.

[Cyris]

Don't forget 200 Courage also!

Important too is the safety from melee that kncokdown immunity gives. By contrast, despite the same 6.5 move speed, I do need to retreat Ops if melee closes, as a lucky special can sometimes spell a squad wipe (does not apply if the chaser has no or bad specials). The fire dragons don't even fear this, so you can kite a lot longer.

Fwiw I think eldars lack of good tanky units keeps the dragons from being as op as they could be. It's not as easy as with GK to screen for them.

I think the unit spent a long time being too weak though. I'm glad it's found a strong place, as its neat some of the builds I've seen with it. Hopefully it gets some attention soon, there are various directions it could go in to be interesting.

[saltychipmunk]

but eldar as a race are designed to not have tanky units. this is exactly why they get some of the best unit abilities in the game a few of which for the longest time were outright broken.

[Sub_Zero]

Wraithguard are pretty much that tank-unit available to Eldar. Now they have even more HP (and accordingly even tankier with levels). And there is that T3 upgrade. Moreover 2 out of 3 commanders can heal them greatly (healing is better on something that doesn't lose models fast, right?).

So I don't agree with this excuse that they "lack" a tanky unit. No way!

[Codex]

I disagree. Heal is best on units that have a great tankiness and damage output balance. Think of it this way- banshees of old were some of the best units to heal due to their chase potential, their damage output, great melee skill and fantastic special combined with a great damage type. On the other hand they are fragile and vulnerable to bleed and even losing models on approach.

Heal is great on them because they normally have ways to mitigate incoming dps on approach. But the reason that shees are so good to heal is that they're such aggro sponges, and if they have a smart approach they should have good damage spread over the squad, and they specialise in overwhelming you in melee anyway with melee skill, that a well time heal can cause a rout and great retreat chase potential.

Now you may argue that wraith guard have a better damage vs tankiness balance, but imo it's a pointless comparison, since wraith guard are mobile artillery, either he's trying to chase you down in melee, or they're trying to kite you. Either way the heal doesn't have the efficacy of healing a melee superiority unit with great chase.

[Sub_Zero]

You made a needless shift to the side. It was said that Eldar lacked a tanky unit. I proved that wrong, didn't I?

For some reason healing is better on something that doesn't lose models fast, right? resonated with you hard enough to ignore (?) the main part of my message and you decided to rip out this very part and start a discussion over it.

When I imply tankiness I also imply that this unit doesn't bleed at all or is less prone to bleed. So when I made this clarification in the previous post I basically meant that wraithguard tank damage for the rest of Eldar and prevent model loses of units that are more likely to bleed.

And my point is not that wraithguard are the best target for healing ever in the roster. My point is that they tank (proving wrong the previous assertion of that guy) and healings let them tank even longer!

It is like when I say that ASM tank really well and there are healings to support them (that means they will tank even better with that, not that they are the best target to be healed but in fact they are and once again it is irrelevant to the main point). It is when someone would say that space marines lack a tanky unit.

[Codex]

You did prove it wrong! I never disagreed with your overall point, but what you said isn't true and might be taken by less experienced players as a rule of thumb as to what makes heals good. Which is just isn't.

There is no need to get so touchy, I'm not being contrary for the sake of it. The reason I ignored the rest of your post is because I agree with you.

[Sub_Zero]

Regarding healings in general my opinion on that is that healings should go into the most crucial to your success units. That is pretty basic knowledge and I can't really see any complications here. If there is an opportunity for banshees to make a huge impact I will heal them. If I am better off slowly advancing to their lines with my wraithguard I will support them instead.

Also the point that healing is better* on units with higher HP and lower model count is true.

*To understand my view let's take this example. Stormboyz and ASM. First have more models and less HP per model, second have less models and more HP per model. You can never be certain whether stormboyz will start losing models after their health drops lower than 70% whereas with ASM you can be pretty confident and let their health drop below 50% and only then apply healing. Better in terms of that. Shees have 6 models and less HP, wraithguard have 4 models and way more HP. This is what I meant by saying better. It is a more safe strategy to opt for healing units with more HP per model and low model count.

I saw nothing wrong in my previous words ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In short everything that I see about healing:
1) Heal whatever unit that will help you to win in a certain situation
2) That is in general a safer strategy to opt for healing tanky units because it is not that likely that they will lose a model (if you misjudge and don't heal in time) before you apply healing (the worst thing to happen if you want to heal units).

I don't see how these basic for this game rules will mislead a beginner and this is exactly what I meant, nothing more, nothing less.

P. S. Revisited DOW 1 lately and thought that it would be pretty amazing to have a clear indication about the state of every model of a squad in DOW 2. So this way attentive players benefit from that and relocate their squads to lead away models that are about to die - like some model stands in front of the others and you change their formation to put some other model to take damage. As it stands now it is pure experience and lucky judgement that allow you to preserve models.

[saltychipmunk]

too be honest , wraith guard aren't all that tanky. At-least they don't feel that way too me they have good hp and armor to be sure but they haven o melee and move very slow. and because they move slow you need to retreat them sooner or the melee units of the world will get a ton of extra hits on them.

[Dark Riku]

Points noted, now Firedragons again please?

[saltychipmunk]

Well, following on the wraith guard point , I still hold that eldar have no truly durable units for their respective unit classes. Eldar has units that are more durable than others but if we compare them to similar units of other races (where comparable) we get a situation where we are comparing a roll of toilet paper to a piece of sheet metal.

even the wraith-lord can be summed up as basically being a squishier but more versatile dread

So again why should the dragons break the mold? At the very-least their durability and that knock-back immunity should be put behind an ability. the unit should not have those inherently , having passive self buffs like that just does not feel eldar too me. where as temporary active abilities that grants those (not unlike fleet) just makes more sense.

In the end the question is what the heck is it that fire-dragons are supposed to do? Are they a generalist unit? are they a dedicated av unit? or are they a supplementary damage source that is good vs everything but is weak enough or vulnerable enough to not be a mainstay like it is now?

[Thibix Magnus]

We might need more 1v1 feedback from dedicated Eldar players, and about countering them. It is possible that Fire Dragons over perform in pairs in 3v3 like many things in the game. I'm not good enough at 1v1 to have an opinion, I haven't found them OP yet, simply because I don't purchase them that often (it could be my mistake though).

Keep in mind that like everything, they limit other purchases. Other than Dark Reapers who, I think, still have to find their place, are FD such an obvious choice against the other T2 Eldar units ?

About benefits being passive, I don't know if it makes them too good, but passivity shouldn't be discarded by itself just because eldar. It is interesting to have one unit in this cost zone that frees a bit of concentration effort, particularly since Wraithguard is such a risky purchase now. And FD shouldn't be evaluated on the mere fact they are too straightforward for Eldar, as this is a logical evolution for the faction. They remain balanced, but I feel the devs wanna make them more enjoyable to play with and against, a smoother kind of balance. I can understand people couldn't find the mental resources to enjoy the game while being wiped by banshees because they made a mistake, or by D-cannons shots because they remained in the danger zone too long and unprepared. Thus Eldar got some other fun tools, like a bit of (slightly) more durable stuff and requiring (slightly) less concentration effort. You had it coming

Not saying that they are too good or not per se, just adding some perspectives. I think the concept of a unit designed as being very resistant to control is really cool. SM rely a lot on knock-back so yes, this particular case is tricky, though the opponent needs to adapt and look for more raw dps rather than KB (I won't cry for the telehammer...) all other factions have either charging melee and/or more than enough DPS (ak storms, shootas).

[Tex]

I just used double firedragons against GK, and it was quite literally the most laughable thing that I have seen in quite some time.

They walked/ran (6.5 is basically running no?) right through a grenade barrage, I activated the dragons fury thing and swift movement, and melted a heavy bolter rhino so fast that by the time I checked back on my dragons, the deed was already done.

I don't mind that dragons are good/great right now. I truly feel elder have taken some major nerfs to core units and strategies. However, the knockback immunity is just... like wtf. Top it off with 200 courage and I'm pretty sure I can just walk right up to a suppression team and burn it out of cover before it suppresses me.

Reduce the passive ranged damage resistance to 20%
Make the resistance to knockback a very short (5 seconds or less) activate ability. Make it cost 70 energy.
Make the dragon's fury cost 60 energy.

It will keep them strong, will require more micro and much better timing, and forces you to choose increased damage or knockback protection.

[Crewfinity]

Yeah they might be a bit strong at the moment...
I immediately pulled the rhino back as soon as I saw them but their speed and damage took it down in about 2 seconds.

Was so sad :'(

I'd imagine with holofields or cloaking from webway they would be one of the hardest vehicle counters out there.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Top it off with 200 courage and I'm pretty sure I can just walk right up to a suppression team and burn it out of cover before it suppresses me.

This definitely works. It happened to me on several occasions.

Also, on second thought, Tex and Sub Zero do make a good point, tying their passive traits to abilities that can be activated.

[Dullahan]

Also another thing worth pointing out: There's no visual difference between the Exarch and the regular squad members.

[Caeltos]

There is a visual distinguishment between them, but it's so terribly subtle that it's barely noticeable. I don't like that they're not really distinguishable, and a model update would be in order- but alas, gotta make due with what we've got on that end, until a future update. (No promise tho)

[Thibix Magnus]

The GK rhino example

They walked/ran (6.5 is basically running no?) right through a grenade barrage, I activated the dragons fury thing and swift movement, and melted a heavy bolter rhino so fast that by the time I checked back on my dragons, the deed was already done.

shows that we might still need time to adapt a bit to fire dragons (and to GK). There might be more stuff to try before getting a clear view.

While still being work in progress and possibly lacking enough tools for this situation, GK have access to other control abilities such as energy burst, purged by fire and stun grenades. You wouldn't throw a grenade barrage against a CL or termis... some of these CC abilities can be hard to land vs swift movement, but energy burst comes with your main squad and is a target ability. Bro cap and global bar have ability denials. Rhino / razorback have the smoke bomb. If it does affect the vehicle (?), the crazy damage reduction should give a life span longer than 2 secs. In case of Swift movement, you could even be better off staying static instead of playing the chase they want, and if you melee the FD they will just run to melee the smoked rhino very fast

[Dullahan]

There is a visual distinguishment between them, but it's so terribly subtle that it's barely noticeable. I don't like that they're not really distinguishable, and a model update would be in order- but alas, gotta make due with what we've got on that end, until a future update. (No promise tho)

Just colour their head differently or something.

[Sub_Zero]

You can adapt to dictatorship, you can adapt to slavery, does that mean these things are just and you should put up with them?

"Adapt" is the wrong verb here and only pushes me to a thought that you want fire dragons to remain this OP (and they are undeniably OP if we look at their performance, their cost, their tier-position, possible synergies and their definition as a unit - they are basically anti-everything now with super powers, sternguard veterans, go cry in a corner).

[Thibix Magnus]

"Adapt" is the wrong verb here and only pushes me to a thought that you want fire dragons to remain this OP

I think my words have been careful/humble/doubtful/interrogative enough. An example was given, I wondered if the GK could have played otherwise when facing this unit. If you have any opinion on what I actually said in both posts I would be delighted.

[Cyris]

I think my words have been careful/humble/doubtful/interrogative enough. An example was given, I wondered if the GK could have played otherwise when facing this unit. If you have any opinion on what I actually said in both posts I would be delighted.

You are one of my favorite new posters.

Tex and Crew both play as GK, and Tex is one of the better players around. Their opinions carry a solid amount of weight. So when the Eldar player muses that their own unit was a bit strong, it says a lot

As for adapting, the trick is, firedragons don't have a big weaknesses to exploit. They are resistant or immune to CC, their speed and FOTM means melee is mostly unable to stop them, and their low model count and ranged resistance makes focus firing a trick. All of this come for a very low price, and very high anti-all dps. Ok... maybe a little hyperbole there. The weapon range is the weakness, but it's been overly compensated for in many other areas.

In my experience as GK, the adapting I have done against Eldar (including when playing against Tex) is to not make vehicles at all, because of how thoroughly efficiently they are countered. The only countermeasure you listed that really works is Energy Burst (Purg and stun nades are not going to work against the speed of Fire Dragons, the BC is nearly worthless against them and Smoke Bomb counters your Rhino for the Eldar) but it has a short range and won't stop the dragons from shooting.