setup team (HWT,deva,havoc,suriken...etc) HP decrease for 3v3.

[karnakkardak]

How about think so? I really tired setup team and suppression spam. In 3v3, everywhere suppress heavy bolter , knock back plasma cannon,madness dmg autocannon...(and most powerful setup weapon in SM,CSM. these army easy to see in 3v3 game too.) I dont say decrease firepower. If then, they r too weak than... BUT, as attacker, how about decrease setup team HP from 675 (all setup team HP same except blastmaster Noise&IG Hwt) to 600 (each 200 hp 3 man squad and each 150 hp 4 man squad.) FOR they can ease for setup team counter to focus rangefire

After deva and havoc get melee resistence, (only my thoughts) sm and csm player spam setup team guys and they destroying 3v3 team game balance. I saw here the post havoc melee resistance will deleted... when we can see that?

[Atlas]

SM has been destroying 3v3 balance as long as I've played Elite.

You need to realize that Devs and Havocs have heavy infantry armor, whereas the other setup teams (minus the Shuri plat) only have Infantry armor. Giving all the setup teams a flat 600 hp would actually make Devs/Havocs just way better in terms of toughness.

As for setup team spam ruining 3v3, honestly 3v3 as a game mode engenders such silliness. Look no further than Max Power to see a guy who utterly fails at 1v1 manage to be ok at 3v3.

#thebombhasbeenplanted

[saltychipmunk]

well, 2 pillar is probably the best way of ensuring that a single player can hold out against a double. It is a strategically useful tool .

and it is not like it is a flawless strategy as it pretty much relies on the complete absence of the obvious counters. (admittedly the obvious counters are not very desirable in most other situations)

[MaxPower]

SM has been destroying 3v3 balance as long as I've played Elite.

You need to realize that Devs and Havocs have heavy infantry armor, whereas the other setup teams (nimus the Shuri plat) only have Infantry armor. Giving all the setup teams a flat 600 hp would actually make Devs/Havocs just way better in terms of toughness.

As for setup team spam ruining 3v3, honestly 3v3 as a game mode engenders such silliness. Look no further than Max Power to see a guy who utterly fails at 1v1 manage to be ok at 3v3.

#thebombhasbeenplanted

[Codex]

Yeah, heavy armour suppression teams become so much better, until you realise that grenades would always virtually instagib those havocs or devastators, since explosive does double damage to heavy armour.

Grenades used to do instagib setups back in vanilla, maybe around 1.4? Thank god they don't anymore.

Surely there is a better way to deal with the issue than changing how a huge facet of t1.5 to late game scaling (after all setup teams tend to get some very important scaling options).

[Atlas]

Yeah, explosive damage (plasma too and etc etc) was something I wasn't considering when making the HP comparisons. I was mostly thinking in terms of piercing damage since the OP was talking about ranged focus fire. All those special damage types come up mostly in T2 though, and by that point there's all sorts of things that you should have at your disposal.

But I can understand the frustration when you play against that style. Really, you need to specifically gameplan around it. A different way of thinking so to speak. Playing "standard" against the heavy artillery/suppression style is just going to lose the game for you. Change your composition HARD when you start seeing this. Think triple manticores, whirlwinds, double the opponent's plasma cannon production

.... Max is a scrub!

[Dullahan]

I don't get why set up teams have melee resist. The whole point is that they should be weak to melee.

[saltychipmunk]

i would imagine it is because if they didn't they could be wiped rather easily by lone jump units. especially stormboys buffed with uyc

despite their power and cheesiness setups are still technically static units and static units are inherently more vulnerable to many things that non static units simply don't care about . melee in particular is already brutal as a well executed flank can almost always squad wipe an even moderately injured setup unit.

they do have that pretty long tear down animation after all, and even a second of being rooted in place can give nearly any melee squad enough time to eat through half the hp of a given setup.

[Sub_Zero]

This principle implies that you (abstract you) are bad at playing, as everyone likes to say that the balance is built around the highest skill level. When you are good at playing you make your opponent cry when he is completely unable to dislodge havocs. Because Chaos is really strong at defending havocs (once again I can write a whole essay about it but I won't, it will fall on deaf ears). Whereas SM aren't that much. I can justify this aura on devs, I will never justify that on havocs.

[saltychipmunk]

You don't need to write an essay , just say heretics and the point is accurately conveyed . I don't think anyone will go around pretending that chaos is not one of the easiest and best races in the game currently. really in medium to semi high skill play they are second only to gk and really that is because gk is still trying to figure itself out.

some of the things you can do with any chaos unit + heretics is just silly. But even so you can still execute a good flank or land a jump unit on an exposed havoc and you could reasonably wipe them out with little to no warning if they did not have that melee resist.

I wont justify chaos balance but I can still say that reducing havoc murder to something so binary is not a good thing either.

player skill is not the issue here, the issue would be the fact that a single action could lead to the total wiping of a squad. that is almost as bad as banshees fleeting across a map to squad wipe a full hp squad. single actions like that (even if it technically the result of other factors like global and buffs) are not fun . people don't have clairvoyance so there needs to be a reasonable buffer in place.

[Sub_Zero]

Then again if this seems to be the issue then make them resistant to melee in retreat-mode.

A lone suppression team owns any unit that can't counter it. A lone suppression team is especially vulnerable to units that counter it. Seems like a fair trade-off. And in a massive engagement I don't see how anything will manage to chase after havocs. That is why I wouldn't make them resistant to melee even in retreat

[Dullahan]

i would imagine it is because if they didn't they could be wiped rather easily by lone jump units. especially stormboys buffed with uyc

despite their power and cheesiness setups are still technically static units and static units are inherently more vulnerable to many things that non static units simply don't care about . melee in particular is already brutal as a well executed flank can almost always squad wipe an even moderately injured setup unit.

they do have that pretty long tear down animation after all, and even a second of being rooted in place can give nearly any melee squad enough time to eat through half the hp of a given setup.

Would make more sense for them to have more hitpoints and no melee resist then.

Would also make them harder to shoot to death with a blob.

[saltychipmunk]

Well this is where the worship issue comes into play. 2 of the chaos commanders get worships which dramatically boost durability in ranged fights. throw a havoc in heavy cover and pc worship will keep them there forever in t1. And the sorc worship is even more brutal since the havoc out ranges most shorter range detectors detectors AND gets that infiltration defense bonus.

[Caeltos]

As much as I'm terrified to giving setup teams more health (and taking away melee resist) as a result, it's still a terrifiying thought. As much as melee resist might get some flak, I'm still positive it helped out on some frustrating gameplay elements, where there's literally no counterplay potential. With having an overbundance of health, that means they can be reactive to even the ranged-elements of which they're supposed to get countered by.

For an ex. If a health increase would be in order, what kind of health increase are we looking at? Are we looking at making units, being able to spunge a few more hits, or just a small sliver of health that is insignificant? That's usually how health works, it'll either require more hits (which is significant) esp, when it comes to the counter-weapon (such as plasma guns etc) which are relatively slow shooting weapons, which means the opposing player has a MUCH wider reaction time-phase to be reactive. And if plasma guns goes from requiring let's say, 2-3 shots to 3-4(or 4-5) that's a huge-deal for the counter-purchase becoming cost-inefficient.

One would argue that you don't get those weapons to deal with HWT's , but if you manage to get shots on them in the first place, I think you should be somewhat rewarded.

So, for an ex. Dev/Havoc have 225 hp ea, are we looking at small health increases such as;
From 225 to 250, or 275?

[Sub_Zero]

I'm still positive it helped out on some frustrating gameplay elements, where there's literally no counterplay potential

Tell me about those. I highly doubt such exist. Especially if it is with havocs.

In my book a suppression team is an ultimate counter to anything that has no means of countering it. And a counter-unit to a suppression team is an ultimate counter as well. This kind of balance. Sometimes I think of what gameplay would be like if suppression wasn't such a super-effective counter-tool to standard infantry (ranged and melee units). Like we rework the suppression system completely so it doesn't shut down squads as effectively (movement, DPS) but as a compensation we make suppression teams more mobile (reducing their setup/desetup time) and tougher. So this way they do not counter standard infantry as hard but at the same time do not get counterd by jump units and snipers hard respectively. Shrinking the gap between these two poles.

But different races have different counter-initiation potential. For example Chaos and Eldar have the best tools for that in T1 (the tier suppression teams are most impactful and viable in). And say orks and space marines have rather meh tools in T1 (slugga boyz despite their relatively high damage have no means of control and piercing damage of shoota boyz don't do a lot to units in melee, on the other hand stormboyz would prove great at defending suppression teams but nobody uses them this way*), both get great at that in T2 (for orks - that is super-scary melee units, insta stun on anything that landed on your suppression team or that cheap transport that can save any suppression team from retreating; for sm - insta stun by a dread, transport, librarian - the best asset for any suppression team). So that is fine when loota boyz have 750 HP and infiltration and that is fine for devs to have the melee resistance. It is not fine for havocs to have that or for shuriken platforms to have more health.

*There are cases when you have a jump unit and a suppression team and so does your opponent. Imagine it is SM vs Orks. What would be the best tactic to use? To counter-initiate ASM with sluggaz and start aggression with stormboyz at the same time? Or use them both to rape ASM and then when you are certain that your loota boyz don't need to retreat finally start your aggression. 5x30 power melee DPS is painful and no race has that high DPS tied to a jump unit, people certainly should start using stormboyz at counter-initiation more and especially in T2 when they can stun (the best tool for counter-initiation). If a unit is a jump unit it doesn't really mean its only purpose is to attack enemy's defensive lines.

Conclusion? No conclusion. Just separate points regarding setup teams that are worth of consideration.

[saltychipmunk]

To name a few,

shooting at a havoc with more than one squad that are spaced out is a moderately effective tactic precisely because havocs have low hp. This is actually a viable tactic against all setup teams. It is also what keeps lone setup teams (unsupported) from being able to permanently lock down an area.

It is also what allows things like grenade launchers to be a viable soft counter because a single barrage + the knock back barrage is enough to get a setup unit down to a hp threshold where it takes models losses from supporting fire. (usually taking about 30 - 40% off if the squad is not spaced out well).

then there are jump units like raptors or asm which are built to have hp buffers just long enough to put some hurt on a single setup squad that is supported before they need to retreat.

All those things are not hard counters, grenades , grenade launchers and jump units are not setup unit hard counters. that is an important thing to understand when talking about setups. they can deal with lone unsupported setups well enough and they can kind of work against supported set ups. but if someone is going hardcore supported suppression then those tools simply wont be that effective.


lone setup teams aren't really an issue. even the havocs with their melee resist. I would argue some of the innate synergies that certain races get with setups are more dangerous than the actual setups. especially races with innate or purchasable on call infiltration .

But because most counter play is so fine tuned to meet certain damage thresholds (because they are soft counters and not hard counters)... it can be completely screwed up by pillar gameplay.
Multi pillar gameplay hard counters the soft counters used to combat single setup builds. And really I doubt that is something that will ever change regardless of a hp buff or melee resist. That is something I see alot of people ignoring. if you are going to use soft-counters against setups then you will need more soft counters proportional to the number of setups being fielded.

for example ill do a 2 pillar havoc setup in my pc build and it completely obliterates single asm builds . the player simply complains constantly that chaos is op because of it. No , that asm soft counters ONE havoc, if you want asm to counter 2 havocs get TWO asm. is it inefficient? damn right it is , that is what it means to only be a soft counter.


Not all races have t1 hardcounters options either. infact only certain commanders and eldar/ sm have legitimate hard counters in the form of suppression immunity abilities or snipers int t1.

[Caeltos]

Tell me about those. I highly doubt such exist. Especially if it is with havocs.

Higher then medicore melee damage killing setup teams. (See Banshees, Stormboyz(UYC still has potential, but that's acceptable) to name a few. The melee resist at least gives you some brief moment to take notice and react fast enough, despite previously, the window for reaction, or even that, there was no response you could do, it was just dead to rights.

I know some people disagree, but there's no point in argueing over it. Because I'm not going to think otherwise, and I can't convience people to think otherwise either. It's only a matter of perception / subjective opinion.

[saltychipmunk]

As I mentioned before it is the prevention of a situation not unlike alot of the unfair squad wipes of yore , like when warp throw affected retreating units, banshees chasing things or my personal favorite .. warpath slugga boys blob.. that one was nuts.

But can I ask a question then Caeltos? If you dislike this out of no where no hope murder situations . why does the vindi assassin only have that tiny hp pool?

That fella is legendarily easy too lose even with his upgrade because of the very high damage potential of t2. And what about the commissar inspire terror against thropes (does that still work? .. haven't seen it in a while....)?

Would you not consider these situations similar to the setups being too vulnerable to certain situations to the point where no counter play is really involved?

[Caeltos]

Vindicare Assassin has a mobility advantage, as awell the concealment potential. He generally has abit better suriviveability then that of a setup-team if you ask me. I consider him a non-issue unit in those regards when it comes to overall gameplay.

[Atlas]

Vindicare Assassin has a mobility advantage, as awell the concealment potential. He generally has abit better suriviveability then that of a setup-team if you ask me. I consider him a non-issue unit in those regards when it comes to overall gameplay.

Agreed. VA is really good right now imo. Just treat him like a Zoanthrope and you shouldn't lose him as badly.

[saltychipmunk]

Vindicare Assassin has a mobility advantage, as awell the concealment potential. He generally has abit better suriviveability then that of a setup-team if you ask me. I consider him a non-issue unit in those regards when it comes to overall gameplay.

Question:
is That before or after you factor in the expensive power heavy upgrades? Out of the gate the fella has the same hp as a single tac model basically.
Would that imply that the vindi is a unit you buy with the expectation of also buying all the upgrades to make him *work*? If that is the case ... he would also be way more expensive than a setup unit as well.

@ Atlas, thropes have the advantage of being a one cost buy in. but they too suffer from a similar problem in that in certain situations you WILL lose them no matter what you do.

this is especially true when fighting commander with a high damage hit or inspire terror which if they get even one hit in it will slay a retreating thrope instantly. same with a non upgrade vindi. get anything melee near the fella and he is dead. one small laps in focus will eradicate his existence.

But the answer despite this is essentially down to better positioning on the players part..

By that same token i can argue that people using havocs and devs should just get gud and position their setup betters to avoid being flanked by melee instead of having melee resist. yeah setups arent as mobile. but they have double the hp and triple the models which at the very least prevents them being wiped by single target attacks that cant be avoided.

So again both of your answers too my question is "use them better" why cant someone just say "use setups better" as an answer to this thread?

Note I am in favor of melee resist on setups. I am pointing out that if Caeltos's answer to why they have melee resist is to provide a buffer against unavoidable counters and wipes it seems odd too overlook very similar situations with other units in the game.

[Nurland]

My main issue was with previous banshees with gates , swift movement, cloak, wind walk, mass tele) and sluggas (mostly with HDB) wiping devs/havocs even if you retreat before they touch your set up. That was pretty lame.

Havoc melee resist could go into only being active on retreat still imho. Would fix the issue.