KCSM

[Dullahan]

OP as fuck dawg.

[Oddnerd]

What is OP about them specifically?

[DandyFrontline]

What is OP about them specifically?

This guy also said kasrkins are OP and ruin 3vs3 games (ofc without explanation), so i guess he is just on drugs.

[saltychipmunk]

To be fair at one point they were pretty damn strong. now they are just crap.

As for KCSM they are definitively the best version of their unit type it is not even a close competition between them purifiers and ogryns.
Does that mean op? nah , chaos in general is just a better race because of their cheap but extremely versatile units.. really cheap units... and heretics... and that damn cheapness...

i want 400 req tacs T-T..... and scouts that dont need an upgrade to be good in a stand up fight like heretics...

[Codex]

As far as I can tell the only useful and informative post that is in this discussion is salty's.

Dullahan, if you want to suggest that something is UP or OP, you have to give reasons for that assessment. This is true of all balance discussions.

Dandy, your comment is pretty much unhelpful. Even if his other posts haven't been to your liking, you're basically painting him in a negative light, which opens a backdoor to strawmen and ad hominem attacks. That would be like if I said on the forums that dandy is quick to pull insults, so he must have aggro problems, don't listen to him. Not very nice is it?

If you think he's wrong or misguided, explain using facts or game scenarios to show why you think kcsm are bad or fine as is.

[Oddnerd]

The funny thing is that there is a ripe field to plow if you want to complain about low-input high-output chaos cheese, but these guys actually seem to be one of the least cheesy units. Literally the last thing I worry about when facing chaos.

[saltychipmunk]

that is mostly because they focus on damage over durability since their base hp is the lowest of the three. But they have the best chase and model kill potential.

Sadly in most game types that is irrelevant because Tzcsm spam is a much safer and consistent method of bleeding models. Kcsm shine in those more isolated skirmishe than the blob warfare that dominate team games.

[Oddnerd]

that is mostly because they focus on damage over durability since their base hp is the lowest of the three. But they have the best chase and model kill potential.

Sadly in most game types that is irrelevant because Tzcsm spam is a much safer and consistent method of bleeding models. Kcsm shine in those more isolated skirmishe than the blob warfare that dominate team games.

Ya I find that a couple GM squads aiming their plasma guns at them will melt them like butter. The only time I am concerned about them is when my retreating blob passes through them, or when an unfortunate vehicle tries to escape them at low HP.

[Codex]

I feel KCSM are great and are one of the more undervalued units in the game. I'm not sure I would stray into OP, but they are often underestimated. They are also much stronger in 1v1, although that's not to say they are bad in 3v3. In fact, I think they are strong in 3v3, it just takes finesse to maximise what they're doing. Unlike any of the other "similar squads" (according to your definition saltychipmunk) of Ogryns and Purifiers, KCSM are not expected to lead the line and tank lots of damage. After all, they are often supported by units such as Melee heretics, Raptors, Chosen Plague Marines, or any of the Chaos commanders who all have strong melee builds, where 2 of them have melee superiority builds. (Or at least SHOULD be if you plan on using them as the shock troops they are as opposed to capping duty). Not to mention Scatter as a mechanic is more relevant with a larger melee blob, which makes KCSM much more durable at range than might first appear, even against their stuff like plasma guns.

Basically, I think a lot of people are using KCSM wrong. In most of my games where I buy KCSM, I often have level 4 KCSM by the end of a game, win or lose, even in 3v3s. I think that is a testament to how useful they can be. Now, onto the original post, OP? I don't know.

[Toilailee]

Oh Dullahan you used to be so good at hitting people with great walls of text but now you've descended to using angry one liners like so many others have... yours truly included.

[Asmon]

Haha toil my thoughts exactly.

KCSM are very good, I'd say best T2 melee unit, close to sluggas+Nob.

[Sub_Zero]

That is why they get raped by almost everything...

[Paradise Lost]

They are good, with the right army composition. I usually scout with my Chaos Lord then jump the largest blob with Raptors. That way you can get them into melee without having to tank damage with them.


But this only works on 2v2s and 1v1s.

[Asmon]

That is why they get raped by almost everything...

Like what? Any video of them losing in a fair fight, against non-tanky hero or another T2 melee squad? Hell they're better than shees, especially at chasing.

[Paradise Lost]

That is why they get raped by almost everything...

Like what? Any video of them losing in a fair fight, against non-tanky hero or another T2 melee squad? Hell they're better than shees, especially at chasing.

Nvm.

[Toilailee]

Hell they're better than shees, especially at chasing.

That's some eldar BIAS right there.

[Sub_Zero]

They have absolutely no chances against any T2 melee unit. And they lose to some cheaper T1 melee units - slugga boyz, stormboyz, banshees. That is sufficient to call them mediocre at best.

The only thing that justifies ever buying them is their potential to kill retreating units. Other than that tzeentch whores are the OP way to go and complement them with bloodletters if you need melee and who are in fact among the best T1-T2 melee units if not the best given their cheap cost and a lot of other nuances.

Tzeentch whores are to be considered a superior ranged unit who beats similar units handily. Khorne marines aren't even close to that despite their high cost and similar blank design with no abilities.

[Black Relic]

KCSM are best used for flanks and map control since they can utilize their mobility which Chaos tends to lack (with the exception of the Chaos Lord's worship). If you lead the lines with these guy then they will get shut down and forced off quickly. For a pretty cheap power melee squad that is quick i think they are just fine.

[egewithin]

My only problem with KCSM is that they are loosing their champion so oftenly... He does not bring anything cool but a melta pistol. He is just a more expensive CSM model that is it. I don't even buy him anymore. I wish we had some reasons to buy CSM Champions even they have their marks.

[Dark Riku]

KCSM are best used for flanks and map control since they can utilize their mobility which Chaos tends to lack (with the exception of the Chaos Lord's worship).

Add TP'ing Sorc

I wish we had some reasons to buy CSM Champions even they have their marks.

They boost their damage with +1/3rd and add extra HP than a normal model. The Khorne Champion comes with a melta pistol witch can actually make a difference, especially when chasing transports. Can also be used as a reinforce on the field and keep them at 3 models. In case you got 5 pop left to spend you can spend it on them as well.

[Paradise Lost]

I agree with Sub_Zero, they are pretty expensive for being the worst melee superiority unit in the game. They are far from useless though, they just do their job worse than similar squads and for a higher price.

[Crewfinity]

I agree with Sub_Zero, they are pretty expensive for being the worst melee superiority unit in the game. They are far from useless though, they just do their job worse than similar squads and for a higher price.

first of all they're not melee superiority, they're more of a brawler type unit, like ogryns or purifiers or vanguard veterans. and when you compare them to those units they're the cheapest of all of them, so i dont agree that they're expensive. only 66 req per model is great when you look at efficiency.

[Tex]

I just went ham with KCSM today. WTF is with this talk of them being useless? Also, WTF is with this talk of them being OP?

Utter nonsense.

These guys are completely countered by T1 melee counters. That right there is all I need to keep them out of the OP pile. I could go on though.
KCSM useless? Try using two squads and send them down the barrel with support. I find when you guarantee getting them into combat either through numbers or design, you will really see them shine.

To support this statement I will attach a few replays and a link to a cast from a few patches ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoV44QdAlb0
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=306957
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=306958

[Sub_Zero]

For a pretty cheap power melee squad

Like what drugs are you on? How the fuck are they cheap? They are not cheaper than any T1 stuff and you should compare them to T1 melee units because that is the only things they are close to. They get fucked by T2 melee units easily.

He does not bring anything cool but a melta pistol. He is just a more expensive CSM model that is it. I don't even buy him anymore. I wish we had some reasons to buy CSM Champions even they have their marks.

Indeed. That melta pistol doesn't cut it at all. The reason tzeentch marines don't get a better champion because even without him they do the damage of a tactical squad + sergeant to LI (EW 60 DPS > 59 DPS ) and ungodly more to HI/SHI/vehicles. What if their champion was stronger than a standard model? He would be really OP then. Khorne marines are another story. They could use a way better champion because the existing one is basically a standard model with different firearm and a little bit more HP. Without him the squad is just disgusting. Tzeentch whores do excellently well without their champion, I add him only in certain cases and whenever I use khorne marines that champion is mandatory to achieve any success with them (shows what mark is actually OP and what mark is probably close to UP than OP as the topic-starter thinks without giving any reasoning whatsoever).

And as Oddnerd said khorne marines aren't the things you worry about playing against Chaos (that must be true for most MUs). This is just awesome when he decides not to get that incredibly annoying ranged damage dealer, that goes absolutely for any race with a lot of HI units or when your race is orks or eldar who decimate khorne marines like babies (slugga boyz and stormboyz that laugh at them or basically any T1 Eldar unit).

Good thing CSM are that cheap, you can afford two of them with no problems. And later on transform one into a powerful ranged unit and the other into a more or less decent melee unit for some variety (and if you are not a faggot who likes A-move with 2x tzeentch marines).

Read that if you felt bad/sad/uncomfortable/overly righteous over someone's "misunderstanding" of how this world works and you are willing to prove all him wrong during the reading of the previous wall of text - KCSM aren't useless for sure. Just their mark is 10 power overpriced for what it gives, that is all I would love to see fixed for them (or a better champion if the cost is the same). Mind you they used to cost 10 less power. Their performance now is just slightly changed. Does this justify that increased cost? And was that increase just in the first place? It makes them needlessly more expensive than they should be, they are no better than cheaper counter-parts, what is the reasoning behind this high cost?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The problem with KCSM is they are too much situational, TCSM is the best AI squad and Chaos have tons of melee squads which are better than KCSM in one or another aspect.

[Skyward Sorceror]

First off, epic avatar there bro. Two, KCSM IS rather situational, even I admit I prefer TCSM way more. Dem Inferno Bolts amirite? Still one thing going in its favor is KCSM all are armed with melta-pistols, and when in range they do tear things up.

[Dark Riku]

For a pretty cheap power melee squad

Like what drugs are you on? How the fuck are they cheap? They are not cheaper than any T1 stuff and you should compare them to T1 melee units because that is the only things they are close to. They get fucked by T2 melee units easily.

How about you pipe down a bit Zero?
"Squad gains +1 speed, +20% health, charge range of 12, +10 melee skill and the squads receives +1 hp/s health regeneration when in combat."
Reinforcement cost per model is only 67 req since only the base 400 req is taking into consideration. Think about that for a sec.

Tex' post being ignored because work was put into it, classic

[Skyward Sorceror]

I agree with Tex, KCSM are counterable by the standard Melee counters. On the other hand with proper support they will Khorn stuff up really good, plus the entire damn squad get's melta pistols! Infact, I think they are the only units in DoW 2 that have Melta pistols. So they are small AV capable!

[saltychipmunk]

I suppose you could say that most of the people who understand tex's position and agree with him are also feel that not much else need be said about it... but.. to support a fellow who is most certainly correct on this topic

Kcsm are great , if you can't counter them. well that is ya own fault. And if you cant use them.. that ,again, is your own fault. Tex basically said that, no need to add too something like that .


Melee units are situational by design. They are skirmish units designed to do their job even after taking a very specific threshold of punishment . Once you get past that threshold,however,... nearly all melee units become weaker. That is true for every unit from hormagaunts to paladins and everything in between.

That is why most of the squishier melee units are labeled as weak in team games. Nothing is strong against 4+ tcsm spams or tac blobs or blobs in general. team games are the domain of blob warfare , its units and its counters.

It takes longer to get to that kind of ranged fire power in 1v1 and isolated skirmishes and thus melee units perform better. There are no better examples of this than with units like kcsm or storm boys , both of which are considered the low hp but high damage versions of their respective unit types.

[Dark Riku]

plus the entire damn squad get's melta pistols! Infact, I think they are the only units in DoW 2 that have Melta pistols. So they are small AV capable!

The squad actually gets plasma pistols, only the champion gets a melta pistol.