Patch 2.5 (WIP)

[Atlas]

GK notes are interesting.

Concerned a bit about overnerfs on the BC. As Cyris said, Aegis in T2 might be too much. I still think the main issue is that Mantle of Terra is not synergizing well with the GK T1 army. The lack of speed up on the BC with WATH is also a little . Maybe he can get it back with the Nemesis Sword?

We'll see on the Rhino. It's a lot of changes at once and I don't know how it'll shake out so it's a wait and see there.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I partly agree with you, Atlas. Since the BC no longer has the speed buff for himself, the Aegis should at least stay T1 to help him out a little. I still agree with the removal of the speed buff though, because it was a bit too much on a tanky, non-suppressable, teleporting hero. I know you consider me scrub-material but just think about it. Maybe it would help to increase his charge range by a bit.

[Cheekie Monkie]

The WATH change makes all the difference in the GK vs SM matchup, where the BC can currently simply walk up to the SM gunline without much repercussion.

Hopefully players will now touch the awesomeness that is Unending Purge to cover the void left by WATH and Blessed Aegis. Whilst I would say that the other wargears are situationally good, it's rare to see them have the huge impact that Teleporter provides. Whilst the Teleporter will always be the easy choice, I do hope that both the Purified Blades and Psychic Lash receives a few tweaks to make them well rounded, perhaps coupled with a slight power increase to the Teleporter. This necessity rings doubly true for Purified Blades, which will suffer all the more due to the now slower BC.

Time will tell whether the other armour choices will become more viable due to the T2 Blessed Aegis, though I do agree that Mantle has little synergy with the GK T1 roster. Perhaps give Canticle a faster cast time to emphasise the silence effect?

[Paradise Lost]

The WATH change makes all the difference in the GK vs SM matchup, where the BC can currently simply walk up to the SM gunline without much repercussion.

Hopefully players will now touch the awesomeness that is Unending Purge to cover the void left by WATH and Blessed Aegis. Whilst I would say that the other wargears are situationally good, it's rare to see them have the huge impact that Teleporter provides. Whilst the Teleporter will always be the easy choice, I do hope that both the Purified Blades and Psychic Lash receives a few tweaks to make them well rounded, perhaps coupled with a slight power increase to the Teleporter. This necessity rings doubly true for Purified Blades, which will suffer all the more due to the now slower BC.

Time will tell whether the other armour choices will become more viable due to the T2 Blessed Aegis, though I do agree that Mantle has little synergy with the GK T1 roster. Perhaps give Canticle a faster cast time to emphasise the silence effect?

I don't think the problem was that his other wargear was bad, but that BA and the Teleporter were too good. Like read what his other wargear does. He is like a Chaos Lord, Force Commander and Hive Tyrant combined and on steroids.

[Cheekie Monkie]

The WATH change makes all the difference in the GK vs SM matchup, where the BC can currently simply walk up to the SM gunline without much repercussion.

Hopefully players will now touch the awesomeness that is Unending Purge to cover the void left by WATH and Blessed Aegis. Whilst I would say that the other wargears are situationally good, it's rare to see them have the huge impact that Teleporter provides. Whilst the Teleporter will always be the easy choice, I do hope that both the Purified Blades and Psychic Lash receives a few tweaks to make them well rounded, perhaps coupled with a slight power increase to the Teleporter. This necessity rings doubly true for Purified Blades, which will suffer all the more due to the now slower BC.

Time will tell whether the other armour choices will become more viable due to the T2 Blessed Aegis, though I do agree that Mantle has little synergy with the GK T1 roster. Perhaps give Canticle a faster cast time to emphasise the silence effect?

I don't think the problem was that his other wargear was bad, but that BA and the Teleporter were too good. Like read what his other wargear does. He is like a Chaos Lord, Force Commander and Hive Tyrant combined and on steroids.

It's a mix of both.

Purified Blades, though intended to be an early counter to melee unfortunately results in melee rushing past the BC to run to the rest of the GK army.
Psychic Lash is a costly investment, compounded by its long cast time - if you played LA and noticed the Flesh Hook bugs, it becomes even worse as a BC.
Vortex is extremely fiddly, compounded by its long cast time (notice a pattern).
The reason why Dark Excommunication is so good is that because it's instant. It becomes much harder to stop an Apo heal or a battlecry when the BC spends so much time waving his sword around to Canticle. I'm not suggesting that Canticle be brought to Dark Excommunication level though.

I'm not saying that these wargears aren't situationally good, but I think they do need to be more user friendly/more reliable to compete even with a potentially nerfed Aegis and/or Teleporter.

[Swift]

I said this about Ops when they came out, now the meta is shifting, AND OPS ARE THE META.

Got to stay non-meta, err...

Sooo... let's put out two Las Rhino's next patch.

[HiveSpirit]

Daemonnettes. Chaos need tits.

You are the reason why there will be no forgiveness for us.

In all seriousness, what role would Daemonettes fill in the army? It's not like Chaos lacks in mobile melee with all the Khorne-dedicated units it has.

Maybe it could be a dlc/ elite scheme for chaos insteed of bloodletters?

[saltychipmunk]

I am glad Caeltos went with the light touch for the ops. the more i play with them now the less I like them as is. So a small tweak is good/ Some solid notes right there.

that nerf to bro cap is definitely going to make grenade launcher ist near mandatory if gk wants to get anything done when the opponent has suppression on the field.

I doubt the bro cap will be charging through ANY kind of focus fire now.

[Ar-Aamon]

Good changes, I like them so far. On thing however must be looked at. Paladins should not be subjugated anymore...well for obvious reasons. Second thing is the operatives damage output. It should be tuned down since GK have access to suppression in T1 again. This combo will be nasty. The last point is the speed of the BC. He is already slow as fuck and now he loses the WATH speed buff. I do understand the change and I'm good with as long his base speed gets increased by 0.5.

[egewithin]

This is the best nerf and buff to GK ever realised. The only friction so far is loosing BC speed buff while casting We are the Hammer. We will see how it works soonish. Remember, we can still have smaller patches with this so do not be too aggressive about changes. I specially liked accuarcy neff on Termie ranged weapons. And GK is becoming a whole new race it seems. Good job to all modders.

[saltychipmunk]

isnt the bro cap base speed only like 4.5? without the battle cry he will be so easy to kite. I too support a .5 buff to his base speed if it means losing the speed buff from battle cry.. especially since this also means losing the 1.5 speed buff from the sword cry.

[Dark Riku]

BC's speed is 4.

How about a 0.5 boost for the BC instead when he activates "We Are the Hammer"?
I'm thinking about the Rhino's cost efficiency. Good starting HP pool with a rather low power cost. Does the transport capacity stay the same?

On thing however must be looked at. Paladins should not be subjugated anymore...well for obvious reasons.

Other than fluff reasons, I don't see any.

[Paradise Lost]

Why are people complaining about the BC being too slow? He's a tank commander. In fact, he the tankiest commander, and they tend to be speed 4.5. Its only a 0.5 in exchange for all that health and versatility.

[saltychipmunk]

Why are people complaining about the BC being too slow? He's a tank commander. In fact, he the tankiest commander, and they tend to be speed 4.5. The CL and the HT are speed 4.5 too and they do just fine. The only difference is that he will take actual skill to use effectively now.

the tyrant comes with a passive synapse so you can argue his focus is to be a tank a supporter to let the faster units perform better. he doesnt care about speed.

the chaos lord gets tic worship.. movement speed argument .. RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW! and he gets that wicked heal knockback aoe ability.

the bro cap under these changes would notably lag behind since he would effectively be losing his one major t1 perk which is to storm setup units. (he lost his armor too ..)like the tyrant you could label him as a support tank. but the synapse is clearly better than just the normal battle cry.

gk dont get jump units so the options for counter setup play was always basically... the bro cap and the ist launchers. This change could restrict gk early builds considerably.

[fankater]

Some questions to Caeltos:
1. What do you think about replacing poor Frag Grenades of IST with Phosphor Grenades (incinerate ground like Warlock Immolator), good aganist turrets, units in building and vs mass melee ? They also can be nasty combined with barrage :]
2. Will Warrior Acolytes someday become separeted units ?
3. Any plans to add new commanders to existing races ?
4. When elite team gonna fix Dark Reapers firing pattern ?
5. What if we make Bommaboy ability able to target units in garrisons ?

[Ar-Aamon]

On thing however must be looked at. Paladins should not be subjugated anymore...well for obvious reasons.

Other than fluff reasons, I don't see any.

Well let me help you. Subjugate the Paladins teleport them into trouble (meaning isolate and chain) and kill them. This was a nasty combo before they could retreat. But at least you had the option to buy them again from the HQ. Now you can't do either. Have fun against the hugbot and the phobos.

[Dark Riku]

Well let me help you. Subjugate the Paladins teleport them into trouble (meaning isolate and chain) and kill them. This was a nasty combo before they could retreat. But at least you had the option to buy them again from the HQ. Now you can't do either. Have fun against the hugbot and the phobos.

It's the same problem other terminators have ... Caeltos also didn't say paladins got removed from the HQ.

[Ar-Aamon]

Well let me help you. Subjugate the Paladins teleport them into trouble (meaning isolate and chain) and kill them. This was a nasty combo before they could retreat. But at least you had the option to buy them again from the HQ. Now you can't do either. Have fun against the hugbot and the phobos.

It's the same problem other terminators have ... Caeltos also didn't say paladins got removed from the HQ.

Well this was my assumption. It wouldn't make any sense to use 350 Red only to field them instantly. However the others faction don't relay that much on their Terminators as GK. You have still the option for a Phobos or a Pred if you need strong and durable AV. Beside the fact that Librarian can easily counter this combo with Gate of Infinity.

In conclusion, yes this change is reasonable if Paladins are only a call in.

[Caeltos]

Paladins will ONLY be available via the call-in.

Sorry, I should have been more elaborate.

[Paradise Lost]

the tyrant comes with a passive synapse so you can argue his focus is to be a tank a supporter to let the faster units perform better. he doesnt care about speed.

the chaos lord gets tic worship.. movement speed argument .. RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW! and he gets that wicked heal knockback aoe ability.

the bro cap under these changes would notably lag behind since he would effectively be losing his one major t1 perk which is to storm setup units. (he lost his armor too ..)like the tyrant you could label him as a support tank. but the synapse is clearly better than just the normal battle cry.

gk dont get jump units so the options for counter setup play was always basically... the bro cap and the ist launchers. This change could restrict gk early builds considerably.

What's your point? You are basically confirming what I said about speed. The HT is speed 4.5 and does just fine even though he can't even chase. The CL can use worship but that would require you to put your tics out of combat and has limited range, the only way to make the CL decent at chasing is by spending 100/30 on a combi flamer. And he still does his job of tying up stuff and wreaking havoc on melee/ranged squads decently well. Now the BC has better support abilities than the HT (except for globals) and better AoE and crowd control than the CL, AND he's tankier. You want him to be faster as well? I'd support giving him speed 4.5, but nothing more.

And they can still do fine without jump units. Chaos could still deal with them before Raptors were introduced and the BC still has a bunch of abilities to deal with setup teams anyway. WATH/Teleporter in their current state are just cheaper and easier to use so no one bothers with them.

[Dark Riku]

Well this was my assumption. It wouldn't make any sense to use 350 Red only to field them instantly. However the others faction don't relay that much on their Terminators as GK. You have still the option for a Phobos or a Pred if you need strong and durable AV. Beside the fact that Librarian can easily counter this combo with Gate of Infinity.

In conclusion, yes this change is reasonable if Paladins are only a call in.

Besides that I don't know what you are referring to in your post. What was your assumption? What change is reasonable?
The Grey Knight terminators are still going to be able to retreat.
The Librarian only needs to be purchased, have the hood purchased (425/85 minimum + terminator cost), be within range 100 of them, not getting forced off. Easy is not the word I would use, especially if the sorcerer managed to run them towards his base, use the teleport, use chains, ...

[Crewfinity]

What's your point? You are basically confirming what I said about speed. The HT is speed 4.5 and does just fine even though he can't even chase. The CL can use worship but that would require you to put your tics out of combat and has limited range, the only way to make the CL decent at chasing is by spending 100/30 on a combi flamer. And he still does his job of tying up stuff and wreaking havoc on melee/ranged squads decently well. Now the BC has better support abilities than the HT (except for globals) and better AoE and crowd control than the CL, AND he's tankier. You want him to be faster as well? I'd support giving him speed 4.5, but nothing more.

Did you even read what he said? He refuted several of your points and you completely ignored that.
He said tell HT doesn't have to have speed because his support abilities are much better than the BC's. You claim that the brother captain is better support, but that's just not true. WaTH is. 15% damage decrease for a small time, synapse is a 40% health buff that's always on for his gaunts. He also has psychic scream and improved synapse, whereas bro cap has... canticle of absolution which rarely sees play. So I don't know how you justify saying that BC is better than HT as supporting his army.

Second, you say that BC has better AOE and crowd control than the CL. That's anothe assertion I think is totally unfounded. BC only has access to a 20% passive knock back chance in t1, while CL starts with an AOE disruption and can get the flamer for more AOE. come T2 they can get the hammer and maul, which function similarly, but CL has armor of the inferno, which is arguably better than the nemesis vortex.

The last assertion you made, that the BC is more tanky than either of them, is also shaky at best.
HT has a higher health pool, more speed, and access to a bubble shield as well as a charge ability
CL has a healing/CC ability, the same starting health, speed buffs from worship, and a bubble shield as well as the harness of rage which can make him incredibly tanky.
BC has a 15% damage reduction for a time, and access to a lot of regen equipment.
All three are tanky melee heroes that can apply a lot of pressure, but to say that the BC is more tanky than the other two seems disingenuous.

[Ar-Aamon]

Well this was my assumption. It wouldn't make any sense to use 350 Red only to field them instantly. However the others faction don't relay that much on their Terminators as GK. You have still the option for a Phobos or a Pred if you need strong and durable AV. Beside the fact that Librarian can easily counter this combo with Gate of Infinity.

In conclusion, yes this change is reasonable if Paladins are only a call in.

Besides that I don't know what you are referring to in your post. What was your assumption? What change is reasonable?
The Grey Knight terminators are still going to be able to retreat.
The Librarian only needs to be purchased, have the hood purchased (425/85 minimum + terminator cost), be within range 100 of them, not getting forced off. Easy is not the word I would use, especially if the sorcerer managed to run them towards his base, use the teleport, use chains, ...

My assumption was that Paladins will be a only call-in. So the change of Subjugation immunity for Paladins is reasonable (to me) and therefore desirable.

[Dark Riku]

My assumption was that Paladins will be a only call-in. So the change of Subjugation immunity for Paladins is reasonable (to me) and therefore desirable.

It's desirable for all the terminator variants Keep the sorcerer away from them or he'll do nasty things.

[Atlas]

My assumption was that Paladins will be a only call-in. So the change of Subjugation immunity for Paladins is reasonable (to me) and therefore desirable.

It's desirable for all the terminator variants Keep the sorcerer away from them or he'll do nasty things.

I agree with Riku, I have no idea what you are talking about.

@Paradise Lost, Crew covered a lot of this already but the BC just isn't as versatile as the other tanky-class heroes right now.

[Crewfinity]

I think what ar-aamon is saying boils down to this: GK is heavily reliant on terminator variants in t3 (obviously), none more so than paladins, as a source of AV and just a purchase that's always relevant, like battle tanks for other factions. Whenever you go t3 as GK you can feel pretty confident in buying them.

Moving them to the global bar means more restrictions on when you can get them, and losing retreat means that you have to be a lot more worried about their survivability, as they have less escape mechanisms and are much harder to replace than before. Because they are such a vital unit, and they're losing survivability(can't retreat out of Manti strikes etc) it's not unreasonable to try to minimize any abilities that can completely counter them, such as subjugation.

Personally I disagree, since I think the addition of interceptors to t3 made GK much less paladin-reliant in the late game, but I can see where he's coming from.

On an unrelated note, does the GK terminator retreat function get activated by menacing visage?
...because if so it really shouldn't.

[PhatE]

http://memegenerator.net/instance2/2217410

[Cheekie Monkie]

A few musings:

GK is now the only race which has only two build able T3 units. Can we expect something else in the works? (I don't know how that Dreadknight model is coming along)

No one has raised a fuss over the loss of hellfire strike yet, does it really not matter?

[hiveminion]

GK is now the only race which has only two build able T3 units. Can we expect something else in the works? (I don't know how that Dreadknight model is coming along)

Space Marines.

[Dark Riku]

On an unrelated note, does the GK terminator retreat function get activated by menacing visage?

No.

GK is now the only race which has only two build able T3 units.

Space Marines.

^