Patch 2.5 (WIP)

[Dark Riku]

GK were also not needed, but they made for a cool addition. Just give it a cost of 100/20 (reaches the same cost as a GK Crusader) and give it the same stats. I'm just putting the thought out there.

You're missing the point completely :/
You're putting your wish out here with no further information or consideration of how this would affect game balance.

[WNxDarkRaven]

GK were also not needed, but they made for a cool addition. Just give it a cost of 100/20 (reaches the same cost as a GK Crusader) and give it the same stats. I'm just putting the thought out there.

You're missing the point completely :/
You're putting your wish out here with no further information or consideration of how this would affect game balance.

I'll leave balance considerations to people who are smarter than me.

[Sub_Zero]

Leave it to smartphones then, there are no smarter people than you, just probably better nerds who spent more of their time on nothing (bad for them, good for you)

[Dark Riku]

Forgot to mention: Please give all Land raider variants a bigger range for embarking.
Units already hugging them can't get inside :'(

[Cyris]

Re: Warrior Acolyte squad in T1!
PLEASE! GK are becoming more and more a ranged only faction, lets turn this around a bit! SS as a T1.5 req + power squad, Acolytes and IST as starting req only squads. This will dramatically open up GK build orders and make them highly differentiated from Chaos / SM, as well as realize more fully the design goal of initial T1 presence being inquisitional forces, and progressing into GK units. With a melee option and Ops hopefully getting more CC at the expense of damage, Purgation squad would not be as needed in T1 to control melee.


Re: Ordo Malleus name change
I like the idea of changing Grey Knights name to something more evocotive of their design: Inquisition plus their GK enforcers as a full faction. I don't pretend to be a big lore junkie, but it sounds cool and it evokes someting very different then another wall of heavy infantry army


Re: Flamestrike.
I for one use it quite a bit, and it's loss will be a relevant nerf to my GK play. I quite like having 2 commander abilities that I can use semi-liberally (Mind-blades + Flamestrike). Dank Excommunication is just not a good global in my mind, it's a waste of red right now. I'd much rather it went away then Flamestrike, which I do very much use (combos with nade launchers / stun / purgs very well, helps counter setup teams which will be even more important after BC nerfs, invaluable against setup teams and armies with fortifications.) When Dank was global, it was very strong and borderline OP in team games, but I just can't find uses for it anymore.

I'd love to see some replays of players using Dank to great effect to prove me wrong! 175 is quite steep. Personally, I'd love if it became fully like canticle, suppressing abailities and regening energy. That would justify the cost to me and push more the "high energy cost, but access to energy bestowing" theme of GK that I like so much. Add in the new world of both GK super units costing red, it's just not looking realistic to use this ability as is.


Re: Ops.
I really think they need more substantial nerfs / rebalance, and that range reduction is the wrong place to be adjusting them. There have been quite a few threads on this topic exploring a number of different options. The amount of burst damage they bring for the incredibly low cost is toxic, and a range reduction will not change this. Reduced far enough the unit will suddenly go from nuts to worthless, I don't see a safe sweet spot working out unless other aspects of it are changed (cost, stealth, speed, pop, damage pattern, damage, abilities etc.)

Been playing IG lately, and Catachans are exactly the sort unit GK needs, and that I wish Ops were more balanced like. A CC caster unit that is highly energy gated whose impact is more through abilities and positioning then raw damage.

[Crewfinity]

So hyped to get purgation back in T1, imo that will solve a lot of GK's current issues with lack of CC in T1.

Melee squad would be cool too I agree. (random crazy thought, what if this hypothetical warrior acolyte squad had low HP but starting ability of energy shields? would align with the energy based playstyle of GK, and synergize with canticle in t1 alongside ops and with SS/purifier justicar in t2)

I know I definitely underutilize dark ex. It can be used to prevent repair, assuring a vehicle wipe, or preventing TG from going into shield wall. Its really an engagement winning global vs Eldar or orks or chaos(no worship), only problem is that for 175 red it is quite expensive. this price tag seems particularly steep when you look at canticle of absolution, which does the same thing with -5 radius and -5 second duration but also gives energy. now that its a radius ability rather than a global silence i think it could be reduced in red by a LOT. maybe something like 100 red or 75 red? with aegis moving to T2 canticle might see more play, which would lead to even less usage of dark excommunication imo, it just doesnt give enough for the price when you can get a reusable version of the same ability for 'free'.

Would maybe like to see LRC buildable from base if paladins cost red, because having to choose between the two instead of being able to field both if you have the non-red resources is sad.

some price adjusting of purifiers and interceptor justicar getting a psycannon instead of a storm bolter would be cool too.

also shoutout to Caeltos for being awesome and continuing to put out great content and putting up with all our nitpicking and complaints and stupid ideas

[Cyris]

I know I definitely underutilize dark ex. It can be used to prevent repair, assuring a vehicle wipe, or preventing TG from going into shield wall. Its really an engagement winning global vs Eldar or orks or chaos(no worship), only problem is that for 175 red it is quite expensive

That's the thing, in most of these scenarios, dropping a flamestrike will do as much or more, and costs less red. And will get you red in the process! Drop a Flamestrike on a bunch of GM's repairing, or a bunker, and geeeez do things turn suddenly.

What situations will Dank win an engagement against ork or eldar? Turning off Swampem or Warshout sure, but it's not gonna stop the globals that buff them, and spending 175 to stop 1 ability seems highly inefficient.

[Crewfinity]

I know I definitely underutilize dark ex. It can be used to prevent repair, assuring a vehicle wipe, or preventing TG from going into shield wall. Its really an engagement winning global vs Eldar or orks or chaos(no worship), only problem is that for 175 red it is quite expensive

That's the thing, in most of these scenarios, dropping a flamestrike will do as much or more, and costs less red. And will get you red in the process! Drop a Flamestrike on a bunch of GM's repairing, or a bunker, and geeeez do things turn suddenly.

What situations will Dank win an engagement against ork or eldar? Turning off Swampem or Warshout sure, but it's not gonna stop the globals that buff them, and spending 175 to stop 1 ability seems highly inefficient.

you're thinking too small my friend

hellfury rarely wipes squads with their leaders in t2, and can be moved out of relatively easily. When it wipes squads it's great, but still not an amazing use of 150 red, and that rarely happens when the enemy is paying attention. In my experience it's usually going to only hit one squad if the enemy is spread out properly, and the DOT isnt amazing.

silencing abilities, on the other hand, is devastating against support commanders (no heal for apo, no guide for farseer, no worship or doombolts for sorc) and does a lot more to disrupt the enemy plans. they're trying to run in the CL with the bubble shield and do a cheeky KTW? not anymore, and now that's a dead CL. ASM jump in? they're not getting a merciless strike or melta bomb, and now the enemy's game plan is really disrupted. bloodletters miss out on phase shift and worship, which means you might actually be able to face them in melee! (jk still probably too risky), not to mention that tics miss out on doomblast.

Silencing abilities is an awesome mechanic, and much more useful than a damage dealing one imo since it forces the enemy to react and adapt, taxing their micro and taking away engagement changing abilities like big stomp, tankbusta barrage, bubble shields, etc.

In my opinion, the only reason Dark Excommunication isn't good is because it's too expensive and faces internal competition from mantle of terra, which will only become more evident when mantle is the only t1 armor available. I plan on getting canticle a lot more in the future and playing around with it because saying all the stuff above got me all excited. lots of possiblities, especially in T1 pushes

edit: why on earth have i not been getting canticle vs IG...
all heroes are very ability dependant, completely shuts down spotters and hits catachans pretty hard, and makes sentinels way easier to shut down...
this demands experimentation.

[hiveminion]

It's a death sentence for Bloodcrushers, Deff Dreads and Tyrant Guards. It can trap Terminators. It stops jump infantry, most vehicle snares, grenades, etc. etc. It stops unit like Genestealers dead in their tracks and can force them to back away or retreat. It pretty much guarantees a win in an engagement, more so than Noxious Cloud which can be spotted early and dodged.

PS: The fact the Canticle is only now being seriously considered is pretty hilarious.

[Crewfinity]

It's a death sentence for Bloodcrushers, Deff Dreads and Tyrant Guards. It can trap Terminators. It stops jump infantry, most vehicle snares, grenades, etc. etc. It stops unit like Genestealers dead in their tracks and can force them to back away or retreat. It pretty much guarantees a win in an engagement, more so than Noxious Cloud which can be spotted early and dodged.

PS: The fact the Canticle is only now being seriously considered is pretty hilarious.

I used to use it a bunch back when interceptors were T1, but since they moved i hadnt used them as much since the energy regen wasn't really relevant and i thought the hp regen was more useful.

I should probably go back and experiment more with it now

regardless, having one instance of a silence ability available for 175 red each time and the other for a one-time cost of 125/25 makes it seem like dark ex is pretty overcosted. especially with the unending purge for all your tankiness needs, if you're considering using dark ex then why not just get the canticle and use it all game long? 175 red is a huge amount, which was reasonable when it affected every unit on the map. now that it's radius based like canticle i think 175 is too much.

[hiveminion]

regardless, having one instance of a silence ability available for 175 red each time and the other for a one-time cost of 125/25 makes it seem like dark ex is pretty overcosted. especially with the unending purge for all your tankiness needs, if you're considering using dark ex then why not just get the canticle and use it all game long? 175 red is a huge amount, which was reasonable when it affected every unit on the map. now that it's radius based like canticle i think 175 is too much.

True. I wouldn't say DE is overcosted though. I'd rather say the Canticle is too good.

[Caeltos]

Updated OP with new stuff. Still working on it.

[Crewfinity]

eldar changes are on point

fire dragon changes look great, more susceptible to melee and artillery while still retaining a good amount of durability.

enhance changes look good too, +3 speed was an awful lot, and having 10 seconds should give more options for using it.

have you decided what damage values/type the new SS psilencer will have yet?

[Lichtbringer]

Updated OP with new stuff. Still working on it.

Nice, everything looks sensible!

[Caeltos]

have you decided what damage values/type the new SS psilencer will have yet?

No, not yet. Only really got an idea on the firing pattern, and how it differentiates from the regular psycanon, both visually (from the firing vfx) as well as audio. As it stands now, the Psycanon model is a placeholder.

It's meant to be ideal versus single individual targets, stripping away from some AoE aspect of the Grey Knights, and shifting those aspects onto other units and abilities.

[Cyris]

Re: Dank Excommunication

I'll believe it when I see it. This theory craft of how amazing it is doesn't match up with any of the personal experiences I've had, or watching anyone else play GK. Also, most of the examples given are situations where it's countering one unit from using one ability after it's gone ham on you. I'd gladly be proven wrong though!

And Flamestrike not wiping squads? Gimme a break, you specifically wiped 2 of my squads with it last time we played Crew Like dark flames or any nuke, you use it with other abilities and on damaged squads to get wipes, though even un-combed it can fully zone many T1 squads out. I'm not gonna take the stand that GK must have flamestrike and losing it is crippling, but I will emphatically say it is a very strong ability that combos well with GK, and Dank is overpriced, especially considering the newly red intensive T3. In short, I'll prolly be saving my red!

While losing access to T2 AOE damage is rough, I think GK have enough tools to cover it's absence, and I overall prefer not having repeat globals from other factions. Dank has been really weak since it was made an aura with no other changes, but because mind-blades and flamestrike existed, I had plenty of fun things to do with my red.

PS: Canticle as the only T1 armor will indeed force experimentation with it, so looking forward to that.


Re: The other stuff

That all said, Ops and T1 Acolytes I think are much more relevant and important topics. I'm in the middle of moving unfortunately (still don't have a PC setup at home) so my play time and post time is way cut. I've been wanting to do more grandiose GK writeups since the MRT, but I just can't find the time :/ These lame bullet points will have to do.


Re: Energy

So speaking of lame bullet points, the last and a big one is Energy. GK's theme of returning energy to it's units is really interesting, unique and underused. There simply are not enough units that end up energy gated (Ops, libby and INT) to make the various ways to give energy interesting. I'd love to see more abilities cost energy (or more energy) but have lower cooldowns, or a more caster style unit as core (relevant to my cata ramblings above). Some examples:
IST nade barrage should cost energy (maybe increase the cost of sarge nade too)
Give Ops 1, maybe 2 more spells (or make retreat break cost energy?)
Make purg flame-slow thing cost energy, but have no cooldown.
BC gets some more abilities tied to wargear (make Purified Blades an activatable ability instead of a passive, give Force Sword a separate ability besides the empowered WATH, maybe give T2 Agies an ability and increase it's cost)

[egewithin]

Eldar changes are close to flawless but we will sure find a weak point Cealtos!

Providence, Enhance and DR cost are best so far. But we will of cource discuss the new nerfs and buffs on D.Reapers and FD.

[Dark Riku]

On the GK globals. They are supposed to get their own gloabls, The hell fury strike was just a place holder, not sure how doable a new nuke for them is, although an OB does also make sense for them.

[Dalakh]

This patch sounds better and better by the minute, definitely playing it when it's out.

[Forestradio]

PS: The fact the Canticle is only now being seriously considered is pretty hilarious.

Indeed.
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, aegis was never seriously considered, and canticle was got almost every game

This was before operatives, shi rhinos, rhino stormbolters, and vindicares even came into existence...

Back then the whole gk meta revolved around getting interceptors and canticle and hammering the fuck out of the teleport (which had no delay, did disruption in t2, and for a while didn't even have a minimum range so interceptors could chain kback single entities and kill them np). Interceptors were stronger back then too, with nemesis focus that essentially gave them another level in terms of hp and dmg--their raw dps was around that of a purifier squad, albeit with a poorer damage type. Interceptors were hugely disruptive, could be buffed to quite insane heights, could tank and linebreak, and were capable of damaging everything with krak nades

Then strikes and purgs got buffed in terms of damage/control, nemesis focus disappeared, aegis got fuckhuge buff in going down to 20 power (in addition to giving +200 hp as opposed to +100 hp), and ppl starting using the bc as a linebreaker (as opposed to a 500/50 separate squad) with the cheaper halberd and earlier timing of the aegis. Even with aegis at 25 power these days, that hasn't changed. The supportive canticle/warding staff bc died after interceptors fell out of favor, and it's the egocentric one that dominates most games atm. Even though canticle/mantle of terra have remained unchanged since like forever.

Anything to bring back a gk meta that does not revolve 100% around pimping out the BC and turns gk from a "BC and friends" faction into a faction with a proper balance between hero/army will only be healthy imo.

And it might convince me to play the game again, although only Caeltos knows whether that would be positive or not

[ChrisNihilus]

have you decided what damage values/type the new SS psilencer will have yet?

No, not yet. Only really got an idea on the firing pattern, and how it differentiates from the regular psycanon, both visually (from the firing vfx) as well as audio. As it stands now, the Psycanon model is a placeholder.

It's meant to be ideal versus single individual targets, stripping away from some AoE aspect of the Grey Knights, and shifting those aspects onto other units and abilities.

The actual animation for the Psycannon should go to the Psilencer, since it's a lot of small shots fired rapidly.

The Psycannon should be visually an hybrid between reaper autocannon, on which he shared the S7 ap4 and 4 shots (Reaper is 2 shot TL, but it's similar in concept), and the Heavy Bolter, which is very similar in concept and construction, and use similar caliber ammunitions.
Of course, in blue.

[Sub_Zero]

Too sad you took the approach of changes to statistics without redesigning the unit more creatively.

more susceptible to melee and artillery while still retaining a good amount of durability.

Speed 6.5, how come are they vulnerable to melee and artillery? Melee will have a hard time catching them (assault marines won't do shit, damned KB immunity...) and they can easily evade projectiles from artillery pieces (noise marines won't knock them over...).

The unit seems less OP now but still it's kinda sad that approach was taken.

[Tengu]

Speed 6.5...

Scout speed is also 6.5 and they can have 71 melee skill on 2nd minute of the game - cant see your point
I'm more concerned about the Dark Reapers. They need a little speed buff because Eldar infantry unit with heavy armor and speed 5 is too slow compared to the rest of the Eldar army. 5.5 speed just to match other units would be fine (remember that they don't have FoF which makes them more vulnerable, cuz they can't quickly run away from engagement that they don't like)

Other Eldar changes looks nice, but i'd really like some more melee units for eldar - it's faction with smallest melee roster compared to others. Only 4 units (shees, wraithlord, council, autarch) - that seems really small compared to for example chaos roster - 8 (tics, raptors, bloodleters, bloodcrusher, dreadnought, CSM, Chaos Termies, Chosen plague marines). My hopes are with Striking Scorpions

Also, maybe make Autarch available for purchase from HQ? Sometimes you just need her buffs, without any nades.

[ytimk]

You're a good man Cael.

X(times) Tzeentch. To all the haters - you were told this is complex shit that takes time. Stop fucking BAWWWing.

Will update here.
* Dark Reaper 'Tempest Barrage' ability removed

Hmmm, I understand the reasons give their lack of use, but special abilities like Tempest Barrage are what gives units extra flavour and further differentiation - amongst all units in game and also within their respective army. Missiles coming out a rifle is pretty Xenos . Just asking if this can be investigated at a later date for a rework and inclusion that suits the new unit role?

Been playing IG lately, and Catachans are exactly the sort unit GK needs, and that I wish Ops were more balanced like. A CC caster unit that is highly energy gated whose impact is more through abilities and positioning then raw damage.

Very nice idea, very in line Inquisition-style use of specialists.
Little troll OPs running around but without the damage/health of Catachans.


Donate.

[PhatE]

The most exciting thing about this now is that DA are going back to 270 req and that also means that Hans can be my practice partner again!f This fixes a ton of issues and expands the builds one can do and still feel relatively comfortable with their choices. T1's can now be heavy without spamming Shurikens or getting two rangers.

Let the creativity roll!

[Tex]

just gotta make sure banshee price goes back to 400 then...

[Sub_Zero]

I was about to say the same thing.

[Thibix Magnus]

just gotta make sure banshee price goes back to 400 then...

You mean, because DA cost was reduced ? Is it ok to transfer costs just like that ? Or do you think that they are too cheap ?

edit. might be worth a banshee thread or revive the DA one

[Sub_Zero]

No, it is just broken to have banshees at this cost. They received an HP buff (default form). Caeltos' reasoning was something like "heck they aren't worth 400 req without it". But now they have a lower cost. Hmm...

I think that banshees with leap but no charge are only good (balance-wise) in their deffault form. I would give them back their charge if they purchased either upgrade. Tell me, balance team, is there a problem to just make their charge less nuts so they don't chase as well as they used to do? I don't really like their leap, like at all, it is helpful only under very rare circumstances. But as an early deterrent of their strenght I can see and agree with that change.

Scout speed is also 6.5 and they can have 71 melee skill on 2nd minute of the game - cant see your point

Well let me help you then. Scouts have a limited use. Fire dragons are anti-everything with VERY high DPS. Why should they have such an exclusively high speed just like that? And since no changes have been made so far - they are also KB-immune (amazing BS), have high toleration of suppression and take so little damage against ranged sources. No, no. Something needs to go (if we take a boring approach to balancing them). Why do you even mention melee skill? With KB immunity you can have 1 melee skill and still special attacks won't do the most important thing to you - won't knock you off your feet.

[Adeptus Noobus]

just gotta make sure banshee price goes back to 400 then...

You mean, because DA cost was reduced ? Is it ok to transfer costs just like that ? Or do you think that they are too cheap ?

edit. might be worth a banshee thread or revive the DA one

It is actually neccessary. If DAs go back to 270, that is 30 req saved for the purchase. If Banshees were to stay at 350 instead of going back to 400, that would be 80 extra req you would have, meaning you can drop a generator a hell of a lot faster.