'Squad leaders' chat

[ytimk]

I personally love the idea and mechanic of squad leaders - investing in squads to strengthen them. Why get squad leaders? Detection, abilities, squad buffs, upgrades (Stern/Vanguard).

SM: Scout (Detector), Tac, ASM, Stern, Van Sarges.
CHAOS: Tic (Detector), CSM, Raptor Aspiring Champs.
GK: IST Sarge (Detector) and Acolyte Leader; Ops Squad leader; SS, Purifier, Interceptor Justicars.
IG: Guardsmen Sarge and Commissar; Catachan Demoman (?) and Sarge; Ogryn Bone 'Ead; Kasrkin Sarge.
ELDAR: DA, Banshee, WS, DR, FD Exarchs; Wraithguard Warlock (?).
ORKS: Slugga, Shoota (Detector), Stormboy, Kommando, Nob Squad Nobs.
NIDS: I'm not sure how to class the Endless Swarm models (Codex says they are die last as well).

(?) = 'Squad leader' or just extra personnel?

Firstly is it true that only one or two specific squad leader models die last? I remember an older thread that said there were 2 but can't remember if it was verified. The Codex at the moment says Tic AC, IST Acolyte Leader, Ops Squad leader, and Shoota Boy Nob are 'die last' models.

Squad leaders cost, but they can also be wiped out by a skilled opponent's strike/focus or unlucky explosion, wasting your hard earned resources.

I think it would be fair to say most squad leaders have some more health then their squadmates.
Based on your experiences - have any of you felt that certain leaders 'bleed' too much? Or get killed too much?

What do you think about 'die last' mechanics, or how it is applied to the current roster?

Based on these issues - do you think the upfront/repurchase costs are appropriate?

I would be interested to hear what people think about them and how it affects your play.

[Skyward Sorceror]

Personally the Die last thing is a useful thing for most of the people who have it, and here is the last of People I know who's officers die last:
Lord General and his accessories (After his bodyguards die, then his accesories die, then him).
Catachan Devils, whose specialists are last to die.
These are the confirmed Die last squads. There could be more for all I know.

[Lichtbringer]

The Banshee exarch dies way too often, she always spearheads the attack (hehe, because she has a spear, but really she always runs infront.) And she costs 90 req, 25 power :/

I am also reluctant to buy the wraithguard leader, more often then not instead of helping the squad, he dies first and stuns and damages the Wraiths.
You can get the same bonies (+1,5 speed) by having the Farseer/Warlockhero or a Direavengerwarlock nearby.
He also adds no damage to speak of to the squad (no aoe, only piercing and not much of it), and has less health then them and he has infantry armor. 450 hp is still good though for 15 power I guess, on the other hand he does 100 damage to 3 Wraithmodels on death... His positioning doesn't help.

Basically you buy him when you are to lazy to micro your Direavengers to always run besides them / when you play the Warpspiderexarch. He dies way too often compared to a Direavenger"warlock" that stays back, gives only a speed boni and has negative effects when dying (2,5 sec stun + 100spore damage).

In general its annoying when squadleaders randomly die^^ The Warpspiderexarch (for the squad) is a very good purchase, but sometimes he dies when 3 of the normal models are still standing. Not that often, but still a real bummer when it happens.

So, I think there was some talks that it may be possible to "reinforce" squadleaders? So when you rebuy them they cost half or something.
I would prefer that over making them all die last.
Oh, and if possible chaning the squadlayout/their positioning^^ Even though it makes sense for the Bansheeexarch to lead the charge (hehe, because they charge faster with her), it looks to cool to change it.

[Codex]

Rebuy mechanic sounds terrible if the cost reduction is significant at all- eg 50% cheaper would make the asm serg 50/12.5, which is about the same price as an asm model... 25 less req and 7 power more.

There needs to be more thought about specific numbers if it's to work.

[Lichtbringer]

Rebuy mechanic sounds terrible if the cost reduction is significant at all- eg 50% cheaper would make the asm serg 50/12.5, which is about the same price as an asm model... 25 less req and 7 power more.

There needs to be more thought about specific numbers if it's to work.

Yeah sure, would need a bit rebalancing. Maybe some get a higher initial price, maybe some only get the Leader for 30% cheaper. But I feel it would be worth it.

[Shas'la]

I've been thinking about the possibility of applying the Sternguard/Vanguard treatment to all squad leaders (and getting rid of the die last mechanic in the process, probably not entirely possible).

Basically, make them a true permanent upgrade to the squad, alongside any passive benefits they might offer (e.g. DA Warlock damage resistance), but any active benefits are inactive if they're dead (e.g. ASM Sarge Merciless Strike, or detection from Scout Sarge/Aspiring Champion etc).

Huge economical changes across the board, of course, but hey, food for though.

[Sub_Zero]

DOW 1 has the same principle regarding leaders. But also in DOW 1 if you lose a model that carries a specific weapon you have to purchase this weapon again. In DOW 2 there is again the same principle regarding leaders. But specific weapons are now permanent. That probably should mean that a cardinal change to leaders could be done but I probably wouldn't welcome that, not for all squads at least.

Your point that passive benefits stay forever even if the leader is dead seems unreasonable. Also detection is a passive benefit, you don't need to activate it, it is always present.

We can walk away completely from the principle that a squad leader gives abilities and passive benefits. We can make it so that any leader is just a more strong model (damage, health, MS and other statistical numbers) and any abilities that come with him will be otherwise granted by a certain upgrade. Something that grants passive damage resistance and active damage buff for dire avengers for a certain costs and stays forever. However their leader is just a risky mechanic to strenghten a squad with just a better and a little bit more expensive model (we change the current cost as well).

Something like "Hard boyz" T2 upgrade for slugga boyz that has the cost of 60/20 and gives the ability you all know. Or "Righteous fury" for assault marines that gives the ability you all know, for 70/15. And so the nob leader of slugga boyz is 75/20 because his stats are very impressive and the ASM sergeant is 70/10 because his stats aren't that different from ordinary models. "ATSKNF" upgrade for tacs for 100/25 and their sergeant comes for just 50/5 because without the ability he is like nothing at all. I am actually very interested in this concept. That makes the game more predictable, takes away this randomness when you lose a squad leader and your squad become a very ineffective T1 squad in T2. But when you paid a good chunk of resources to scale your unit up (make it T2-worthy) then you risk buying a more expensive and better model. And if you lose it it doesn't become such a big deal because its cost isn't so significant as it is now N>50 req/15+ power.

[ytimk]

I could of sworn I read a comment once that the 'die last' mechanic is tricky in the game code - something to do with damage spreading across models and/or targeting - maybe affecting unit behaviours? It would be good to get confirmation on that from devs because if it becomes a programming and balancing mess to start twerking stuff with die last mechanics this wouldnt be patch stuff, this would be a major rework.