Which Chaos commander is best for newbies?

[Skyward Sorceror]

I ask because while I like the idea of playing Chaos sorceror, it seems a tad difficult compared to some commanders. Advice? I know two Cultist squads is a general basic build, but not much else.

[Oddnerd]

Plague champion is a great pick for beginners. With him as your commander, your heretics worship will give a healing aura. This aura makes your army fantastic for cover-based attrition fighting. The plague champion himself is an extremely versatile hero. He begins with a bolter and can make heavy bolter turrets, He can be upgraded with a flamer weapon, a powersword, or a powerfist, making him capable at both ranged and melee combat depending on the build. A plague champion entrenched in a position with a havoc squad, a csm squad, and worshiping cultists will win just about nay firefight.

Against really bad opponents the Chaos lord can work, but he is just so easy to kite that early on he can be an impedement. Late game he just becomes a cheesy ability-spamming melee tank, really not as versatile as the PC.

[Cyris]

I'd personally recommend CL, if you are talking 1v1. Oddnerd is right that he's kitable, but this is much less a concern in 1v1, and if you follow him in with tics you can get a lot done. CL is very forgiving for new players, as he has a really big health pool, an anti-melee ability and access to some very potent wargears in T1.

2 tics, 1 csm and a havok is a good starting point. Don't forget tic worship, it lets your CL get into melee much faster, or move the Havok to a good spot. Get the combi-flamer on your CL if you are against "swarmy" races, as it's increased ranged damage will let you pick of enemy models fairly often, providing your CL with a lot of XP. Heck, it even works on SM and GK, as long as you focus the CL on chasing Scouts/IST. In T2, it very much depends on how the game is going, but I'm a big fan of Bloodletters followed by a Dread, OR a bloodcrusher followed by more bloodcrushers

[Crewfinity]

I won the very first Beginners Tournament back in the day with Chaos Lord, Cyris is right that he's a very noob friendly commander due to being fairly one-dimensional, tanky, and easy to use. Plague champion is also fairly easy to figure out, chaos in general is a good race to start with since they dont have near as many abilities as other races, letting you focus more of your attention and micro on unit positioning and map control.

try to become more familiar with using worship, proper usage of that ability makes it much easier to win engagements and leverage your army, chaos has all sorts of awesome tools in T1 so you can play around with different build orders until you find what you like.

some specific BO's for playing with the Chaos Lord:

2 tic, CSM, raptors- very mobile with 2 sources of worship and a jump squad, allows you to go full melee if you get AC's on your tics or you could get 1 AC and 1 nade launcher, letting you split your forces with AC tics and CSM on one side of the map, and nade tics with raptors on the other. both of those unit combinations are very versatile and can handle a lot of threats on their own.

1 tics, 2 CSM, havocs-
a more range oriented build, you can get nade launcher on tics and rely on CL for counter melee to really put the hurt on opposing ranged blobs. havocs are amazing, and are supported really well with AC tics for counter-initiating jump squads that try to disrupt the havocs.

2 tics, CSM, havocs, Noise Marines-
I would call this my most standard build, its flexible enough to take on any matchup with the right upgrades. noise marines are awesome at shutting down ranged units and burning gens, and their ability synergizes particularly well with the CL since he's immune to knockback. they pop cacophany and he can keep beating on enemy melee units while they get knocked back repeatedly.

Chaos lord himself is very tanky, getting good heals with kill the weak is key, but be aware since your opponent will be looking at the CL to see his energy drop to try to dodge the ability. often they will try to bait it out with melee units approaching and backing off, landing a good KTW can be an engagement winner. always try to use worship as much as possible, +2 speed in an area is awesome, especially with a tanky melee commander. with the bubble shield and worship support CL can charge into setup teams pretty easily.
As far as wargears go, combi flamer is amazing vs swarmy races and good at bleeding enemy models like DA or scouts or what have you, very good T1 purchase vs eldar or IG. bubble shield and harness of rage are your go-to upgrades if you want to tank a bunch of damage, they synergize particularly well with lightning claws. armor of the inferno is great in t2 against infantry blobs, and mantle of hate is good at temporarily taking high-value models such as support commanders or squad leaders out of a fight.

[hastaga]

What? Practice makes perfect. It doesn't matter which chaos hero you start with. Their play styles are so different. No matter which hero you pick, you're gonna suck for a while any way.

just because I play sorc well doesn't mean I play well with CL/PC. The 2 just don't fit my style. Just figure out how you want to play the game first and find use the one that you like the most because he helps you to win.

[egewithin]

It seems everyone agrees that CL is the easyest to use. Let me give some wargear suggestions.

Combi-Flamer : Anti Tyranid / Anti Ork / Anti Eldar sounds Anti IG (Imperial Guard) but it is hard to make it work somehow. It can burn down turrents and beacons but try to make it from a flank insted of outshooting turrent from close range which will end with a hero loss since you will take more damage the closer you get to turrent.

Blood Maul : Anti melee. If enemy goes too melee focused, smash them with this! Always fun to use if you can hit them. Also, 150 hp damage on hit!

Claws : Anti heavy infantry, anti terminator with right build order adn support. Jump Squads won't dare to jump now. Very shot cool down between hittings.

Harness of Rage : Good regen and gain energy around you on hit. Works good with Claw / Iron Halo / Raptors and Bloodletters.

Armor of he Inferno : Anti Ork / IG ( specially IG ) / Tyranid and Eldar. Perfect vs turrents and beacons since it hits from too far away and destroys it if you hit fire balls good enough.

Mantle of Hate : Anti single unit armor but not the best compared to these.

Iron Halo : Bubble Shield. Goes very nice with Harness of Rage. Also, good capping tool.

Demonic Massage : Very effective in big team fights. Like a table turning point sometimes.

Icon of Khorne : Self heal on hit. Goes mad with Claws and big health pool armors.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Demonic Massage : Very effective in big team fights. Like a table turning point sometimes.

I wonder if sexy demonettes are giving you that massage

Having played the Plague Champion for quite some time now, I must admit that he really blossoms in late game. You really have to be patient in early T1 though, as he can be easily forced off if rushed down. Especially first engagements are tricky. The Chaos Lord is such a bully compared to the Plague Champion, that he will most likely win 90% of the first engagements. So I agree, he is a good choice.
If you are looking for a melee tank in the late game though, I suggest you give the Plague Champion a try. The combination of Plague Fist, Armor of Pestilence and Breath of Nurgle makes him extremely annoying. With this wargear he recieves a fantastic melee weapon that has a stun ability that also gives 90% damage reduction to ranged fire in a small area. Armor of Pestilence gets charged by taking damage. Take enough damage and you can deal an on demand knockback attack to surrounding enemies. Breath of Nurgle is a self heal.

[Skyward Sorceror]

Heheheh Thank you all for your answers. I think I'm gonna give sorc a try for Chaos.

[Dark Riku]

Breath of Nurgle is a self heal.

Short range AoE heal that also heals himself

[Adeptus Noobus]

Breath of Nurgle is a self heal.

Short range AoE heal that also heals himself

Indeed it is.

[Paradise Lost]

Don't go Chaos Lord, he's the worst of the three. His worship and globals suck, and his large health pool means nothing due to his low speed, he'll get kited and shot down fast. The Plague Champion is by far more noob friendly since he has fantastic abilities/globals and his worship heals your units. He's arguably one of the best commanders in the game.

[Skyward Sorceror]

.......Uhhhh isn't that why his cultists worship gives a speed boost? Also I find it oddly ironic you dislike the Khornate commander despite your avatar. But yeah that slow speed can be a bummer.

[Dark Riku]

CL is the easiest and most straightforward to play out of the 3. His globals are great, can't believe what I read from you most of the time Paradise.
"Low Speed" 4.5 instead of the general 5. His large Health Pool is a big deal, especially with his starting ability that includes a self heal.

[Skyward Sorceror]

I wonder what boost the Slaneesh champion cultists would grant when worshipping? Also do you think we might see some slaneesh mark upgrades?

[Tex]

If you start with sorc, prepare to lose a lot to offensive commanders until you learn the way of Tzeentch.

[Paradise Lost]

The problem with the speed buff is that he often gets kited out of worship range. Due to his low damage, he can't bleed models fast enough. I main the CL but of all the heroes I've tried he's been hardest to use. So far only very specific builds have worked with the CL against equally skilled oponents, because he can't support his army like the other commanders, 2 out of his 3 unique globals suck, and he's no longer the melee juggernaut he was in retail.

Moving away from anecdotal experience, it is very rare to see a replay with the CL where he actually does any impact and levels up further than lvl 3.

[Vapor]

Chaos Lord is still strong, but he's always been popular, and at this point everybody has played against enough Chaos Lords that it's hard to catch people off guard unless you're good about using your worship.

He is a powerhouse though, even in teams. 2x CSM can occasionally carry you through t1 and allow for a fast tech, but I prefer loading up on as many t1 units as possible to apply constant pressure. It's pretty great when your opponent makes a single mistake early on that allows you to snowball and totally steamroll him for the rest of the game.

[Skyward Sorceror]

Any advice on how to use Tzeentch worship best?

[hastaga]

sor excels at doing burst damage and any ranged initiation when people don't see it, aka surprise tactics.

Basic:
Worship to prepare your setup squad or move them around safely, cancel worship when you're ready.
Fire doombolt from worship to avoid early detection
Or any other t2 spells
Of coz it's also good for the sigil, but it's a bit too clunky to use with the worship so even I don't usually do it.
Raptor squad/grenade barrage from stealth

Advanced
Sneakty melee heretics, dread, blood letterer

[Asmon]

With 2 tic squads at the same time obvioulsy. This is the only advice that is specific to CS.

[hastaga]

With 2 tic squads at the same time obvioulsy. This is the only advice that is specific to CS.

I'm not entirely sure about the use of double tics just for the worship

In 1v1 you'll be spreading one squad to cap/uncap all over the place, so it's irrelevant to worship and impractical to seek for 'total stealth'

in 3s, I rarely get double tics unless I need to extra capping power, which is as mentioned, 'rare'. Coz you are usually responsible for a lane only. Getting an extra tic squad just for the stealth really limit your squad choice after due to micro capability and upkeep. Besides, All that you need from the worship is really to ambush your opponent successfully with suppression. Whether they see your tics or not is really, secondary, as long as they don't see your havoc. It also add something to the mind game as they know i'm there but no idea where my troops are (Esp the havoc).

[Dark Riku]

The problem with the speed buff is that he often gets kited out of worship range.

Then the CL is still tying up a squad, and to make any use of the kiting, the other player will need another unit to actually engage the CL.
So the CL is probably already keeping 2 units busy. You can also reposition your heretics or multiple.
Use your other units in combination: suppress them with havocs/raptors/heretics, Knock them back with grenade launchers, ...

Due to his low damage, he can't bleed models fast enough.

Low damage compared to what? Mind you his sword is power melee and thus will be more effective versus (S)HI.
Combine the CL with the combi-flamer so he gets the ranged damage of a ranged commander with 100% FoTM. He will become a bleeding machine.
Kiting versus him won't even work properly with this upgrade, not to mention the multi-purpose ability he gets.

I main the CL but of all the heroes I've tried he's been hardest to use.

I have to ask what heroes have you used then? Because from my experience the CL is one of the easier to play heroes in the game.
Bully the opponent with his tankyness and keep the pressure up, pretty straightforward.

So far only very specific builds have worked with the CL against equally skilled oponents, because he can't support his army like the other commanders

That's what build orders are for. Some work better than the others, there is a correct one for each unique situation (/player).
Of course he doesn't support the Chaos roster like the others do. That's kinda what the different heroes do.
Saying he supports his army straight up worse than the other 2 would be faulty though.

2 out of his 3 unique globals suck

Which ones would those be and why? They are all useful.
Blood Sacrifice can turn an engagement around for the price of a single heretic model and the red cost while keeping you in the aggressors seat.
Malignant Blindness can help you with clutch escape or help you set things up, like a flank and can generally freak your opponent out. Can't go capping around the map without the risk of losing a squad because a melee unit creeped into their retreat path or would get ganked on by multiple units out of the FoW.
Bloodlust can give you that extra damage you need, the longer the fight, the better your damage bonus becomes, great for winning fights with a slightly smaller army or to try and wipe some of the enemies units.

and he's no longer the melee juggernaut he was in retail.

Why is that then? He is still a very potent melee hero. Nothing changed that.

Moving away from anecdotal experience, it is very rare to see a replay with the CL where he actually does any impact and levels up further than lvl 3.

Watch my 1v1 tournament games? I'm pretty sure there are other good Chaos Lord players out there. Keep an eye out for them.

[Paradise Lost]

Then the CL is still tying up a squad, and to make any use of the kiting, the other player will need another unit to actually engage the CL.
So the CL is probably already keeping 2 units busy. You can also reposition your heretics or multiple.
Use your other units in combination: suppress them with havocs/raptors/heretics, Knock them back with grenade launchers, ...

You have a point, but I don't see how one could apply that before 1.5, since lack of upgrades mean tics get bled, CSM get tied up and the CL will get kited without managing to do much damage.

Low damage compared to what? Mind you his sword is power melee and thus will be more effective versus (S)HI.
Combine the CL with the combi-flamer so he gets the ranged damage of a ranged commander with 100% FoTM. He will become a bleeding machine.
Kiting versus him won't even work properly with this upgrade, not to mention the multi-purpose ability he gets.

Power melee or not, it's still 26 dps... Too low to make a difference, I think it's the lowest damage of all offensive commanders. The upgrade is fine, but it's 30 power that could be spent on getting a T1.5 unit instead. I don't like that he's the only Chaos commander that needs an upgrade to be able to do some damage to ranged units.

I have to ask what heroes have you used then? Because from my experience the CL is one of the easier to play heroes in the game.
Bully the opponent with his tankyness and keep the pressure up, pretty straightforward.

He's straightfoward but very limited. I would be fine with this if he excelled at his designated purposes, but he doesn't, and other offensive commanders can do his job better while also being able to support their armies. I've tried out the Warboss and the HT, they both seem to have more impact, the only thing that makes the CL shine IMO is Let the Galaxy Burn (if he doesn't get shot to pieces before he can use it).

That's what build orders are for. Some work better than the others, there is a correct one for each unique situation (/player).
Of course he doesn't support the Chaos roster like the others do. That's kinda what the different heroes do.
Saying he supports his army straight up worse than the other 2 would be faulty though.

That's not what I meant. I'm trying to say that build that would tend to work/synergyize well with the Sorcerer and the PC are actually handicapped by the Lord's low impact in spite of his lack of support. Of course you'd get different units for different situations, but the CL seems more limited than the other Chaos heroes in this matter.

Which ones would those be and why? They are all useful.
Blood Sacrifice can turn an engagement around for the price of a single heretic model and the red cost while keeping you in the aggressors seat.
Malignant Blindness can help you with clutch escape or help you set things up, like a flank and can generally freak your opponent out. Can't go capping around the map without the risk of losing a squad because a melee unit creeped into their retreat path or would get ganked on by multiple units out of the FoW.
Bloodlust can give you that extra damage you need, the longer the fight, the better your damage bonus becomes, great for winning fights with a slightly smaller army or to try and wipe some of the enemies units.

Specifically blood sacrifice and MB. Blood Sacrifice is just a worse version of Daemonic Summoning. Only 4 Bloodletters, and doesn't let you reinforce. And honestly I'd rather get Raptors or an actual squad of Bloodletters than constantly rely on BS to deal with setup teams (the only thing those temporary BLs will actually manage to force off). I think MB is bugged because it doesn't work as intended. The line of sight reduction doesn't help if they already started shooting at something, so you can't use it to escape. Unless you have multiple Bloodcrushers and/or Bloodletters, this ability is useless.
Bloodlust is just awesome, no complaints.

Why is that then? He is still a very potent melee hero. Nothing changed that.

He could deal WAY more damage in retail because the BM dealt power melee and the LCs dealt heavy melee. I think LTGB got some changes too, he only shoots 3 instead of 5. I'd say he's now more of a tanky melee hero that can either be a damage sponge or specialize in anti-infantry AoE. He can no longer bleed stuff like he used to.

Watch my 1v1 tournament games? I'm pretty sure there are other good Chaos Lord players out there. Keep an eye out for them.

Links? I watch Indrid's casts but high lvl CL players aren't that common.

[Nurland]

I don't think LCs were ever heavy_melee. They only had the icon for some reason. Maul used to do power_melee and it was OP as fuck for 35 power. Now he gets stun for the Maul which is such an awesome ability making Maul worth the 50 power.

When it comes to CL globals... Well I very, very strongly disagree about his globals being bad. MB in its current state is so far from useless. It is such an insanely strong global.

CL has kinda low damage out of the game but his 26 dps power melee is still the same as roughly 35 melee against HI and commander armor targets. Also his standard ranged attack is not bad. It has good range and a Tactical Marine dps with full FotM accuracy.

You want links for 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 replays? I assume Elite mod?

[Asmon]

Claws've never been heavy melee indeed.

[Dark Riku]

You have a point, but I don't see how one could apply that before 1.5, since lack of upgrades mean tics get bled, CSM get tied up and the CL will get kited without managing to do much damage.

It's very easy to do before T1.5. The enemy doesn't have any T1.5 either and at the beginning of the game won't have enough squads to deal with you if you are aggressive.

Power melee or not, it's still 26 dps... Too low to make a difference, I think it's the lowest damage of all offensive commanders. The upgrade is fine, but it's 30 power that could be spent on getting a T1.5 unit instead. I don't like that he's the only Chaos commander that needs an upgrade to be able to do some damage to ranged units.

You have to keep his sidearm in mind as well as Nurland already mentioned.
Other melee commanders are also not kb and suppression immune while having a self-heal/kb on demand ability to use in melee.

He's straightfoward but very limited. I would be fine with this if he excelled at his designated purposes, but he doesn't, and other offensive commanders can do his job better while also being able to support their armies. I've tried out the Warboss and the HT, they both seem to have more impact, the only thing that makes the CL shine IMO is Let the Galaxy Burn (if he doesn't get shot to pieces before he can use it)...., but the CL seems more limited than the other Chaos heroes in this matter.

That's an opinion I would very much disagree with. You can kit your CL to deal with many different situations.
My suggestion here would be to practise some more and try different things. Don't run in your CL before your army to try and cast LTGB

He could deal WAY more damage in retail because the BM dealt power melee and the LCs dealt heavy melee. I think LTGB got some changes too, he only shoots 3 instead of 5. I'd say he's now more of a tanky melee hero that can either be a damage sponge or specialize in anti-infantry AoE. He can no longer bleed stuff like he used to.

What Nurland said about the weapons is true LTGB fires 4 balls now instead of 5, it was so OP in retail and as you yourself already said, it's a very potent ability in Elite.

Links? I watch Indrid's casts but high lvl CL players aren't that common.

Look through the tournament section. There are threads with replay uploads or look at the streamers Twitch pages that covered the MRT's.

[Paradise Lost]

You want links for 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 replays? I assume Elite mod?

Preferably 1v1s, but 3v3s are fine too. Elite mod of course.

I don't think LCs were ever heavy_melee. They only had the icon for some reason. Maul used to do power_melee and it was OP as fuck for 35 power. Now he gets stun for the Maul which is such an awesome ability making Maul worth the 50 power.

Yet the WB gets 200 health, the stun and explosive damage for 25 power in T1, AND he's still free to get whatever weapon he wants. Both are melee-counter upgrades, one is just insanely better than the other. Again the CL falls short against other tanky melee heroes.

When it comes to CL globals... Well I very, very strongly disagree about his globals being bad. MB in its current state is so far from useless. It is such an insanely strong global.

Then enlighten me. In which situations is MB ''insanely strong''?

Claws've never been heavy melee indeed.

Well in retail it said it was effective against all targets and had the heavy melee icon

What Nurland said about the weapons is true LTGB fires 4 balls now instead of 5, it was so OP in retail and as you yourself already said, it's a very potent ability in Elite.

Yes, it's one of his few useful abilities. No complaints about it, though the armor itself should give more health IMO since you get Warbosses/HTs/BCs charging into huge blobs and the CL can barely last long enough to use LTGB and retreat...

Look through the tournament section. There are threads with replay uploads or look at the streamers Twitch pages that covered the MRT's.

I will, thanks.

[Dark Riku]

Yet the WB gets 200 health, the stun and explosive damage for 25 power in T1, AND he's still free to get whatever weapon he wants. Both are melee-counter upgrades, one is just insanely better than the other. Again the CL falls short against other tanky melee heroes.

You have to put things into context though. The WB can be suppressed and knocked back while the Chaos Lord can't and is also part of the Chaos roster having anti melee in the form of heretics already. The maul also has a ridiculous knockback strength (models fly pretty damn far away).

Then enlighten me. In which situations is MB ''insanely strong''?

-->

Malignant Blindness can help you with clutch escape or help you set things up, like a flank and can generally freak your opponent out. Can't go capping around the map without the risk of losing a squad because a melee unit creeped into their retreat path or would get ganked on by multiple units out of the FoW.

Well in retail it said it was effective against all targets and had the heavy melee icon

That doesn't mean it actually was that way. Relic didn't have the best tooltips, they actually had quite horrible tooltips.
Looking at the 3.19.1 tooltips I don't see your description though.

Yes, it's one of his few useful abilities. No complaints about it, though the armor itself should give more health IMO since you get Warbosses/HTs/BCs charging into huge blobs and the CL can barely last long enough to use LTGB and retreat...

It's very unlikely that the enemy can force your CL off that quickly unless he was massively out of position. This comes from my 1v1 experience.

[Paradise Lost]

Yet the WB gets 200 health, the stun and explosive damage for 25 power in T1, AND he's still free to get whatever weapon he wants. Both are melee-counter upgrades, one is just insanely better than the other. Again the CL falls short against other tanky melee heroes.

You have to put things into context though. The WB can be suppressed and knocked back while the Chaos Lord can't and is also part of the Chaos roster having anti melee in the form of heretics already. The maul also has a ridiculous knockback strength (models fly pretty damn far away).

Then enlighten me. In which situations is MB ''insanely strong''?

-->

Malignant Blindness can help you with clutch escape or help you set things up, like a flank and can generally freak your opponent out. Can't go capping around the map without the risk of losing a squad because a melee unit creeped into their retreat path or would get ganked on by multiple units out of the FoW.

Well in retail it said it was effective against all targets and had the heavy melee icon

That doesn't mean it actually was that way. Relic didn't have the best tooltips, they actually had quite horrible tooltips.
Looking at the 3.19.1 tooltips I don't see your description though.

Yes, it's one of his few useful abilities. No complaints about it, though the armor itself should give more health IMO since you get Warbosses/HTs/BCs charging into huge blobs and the CL can barely last long enough to use LTGB and retreat...

It's very unlikely that the enemy can force your CL off that quickly unless he was massively out of position. This comes from my 1v1 experience.

I watched some of your replays from MRT 16.
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=305287
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=305289
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=305290
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=305291

It's basically what I said. You mainly used him to tie stuff up and absorb damage. You never used the BM nor the LCs, and most of your impact came from the rest of your army, mainly dreadnoughts and worshipped BLs, with NMs for gen-bashing and Tics/CSM/CL for ninja-capping. I don't recall seeing BS or MB being used either. Nice micro tho, learned a lot.

Also I said earlier that MB doesn't work as intended. Melee units will shoot on the move and be revealed, so you can't flank, and the FoW reduction won't hide units that were already being shot at. Thus (as I said) making it useless unless you have a ton of BL/BCs. I swear I keep using this ability like you guys said (I've already discussed this in other threads) and it just doesn't work. And when it gets used on me, it doesn't hamper me either.

[Crewfinity]

You can avoid the melee issue by the same method you sneak up infiltrated sluggas to the enemy, have them move right next to the target squad before you command them to attack and they won't fire their sidearms.

Units that are currently being shot at can be seen in fog of war, but will disappear quickly once they haven't been hit for a second or two. Very helpful for avoiding lascannons and the like, which have a large cool down period.

Additionally, malignant blindness is a map wide global, so it's exponentially more useful in 2v2 and 3v3. Even in 1v1 knowing where your opponents units are is such valuable information that being able to make your opponent blind can be incredibly helpful through disrupting their battle plans

Combi bolter is usually the weapon of choice since it makes him dangerous to try to kite and is such a great upgrade in general. Lightning claws are more niche t counter jump squads uusually, and blood maul to put the hurt on melee blobs. While his melee weapons may be a bit more situational due to cost, all his weapons are viable choices imo