The obvious irony of Eldar bleed

[Interdiction]

I love how obviously ironic the rate at which Eldar in the game tend to bleed is, although I understand it is their race design. Like Space Marines there are very few of them in the galaxy but they bleed like crazy! I am not proposing to change this,worry not, just needed to voice a little pet peeve that was eating at me when I play.

[DandyFrontline]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNr0WXQ3Ho4

[KanKrusha]

Yeah, I always thought this was a weird way to design a race. Naturally long lives, very slow reproduction rate, delicate constitution ... I know, let's wear really thin armour!

I guess to some extent eldar keep fighting even when they are dead (wraith units)

I also found it funny when DA warlocks were tied two that the "high tech" eldar were the most vulnerable to infiltration while tyrannids were pretty much infliltration immune

[Kvn]

Naturally long lives, very slow reproduction rate, delicate constitution ... I know, let's wear really thin armour!

To be fair, Eldar battle tactics in the lore generally revolve around either hitting an opponent in such a way that they can't fight back, or manipulating someone else into taking the brunt of the damage for them. At least, when the writers aren't looking to have them killed off in mass numbers that is, because killing Eldar in rather ridiculous ways has been the 'in' thing for a while.

Since that kind of battle theme can't be implemented in game terms (or it could, but would be maddeningly frustrating to play against) the glass-cannon style fits them just as well.

[DandyFrontline]

Naturally long lives, very slow reproduction rate, delicate constitution ... I know, let's wear really thin armour!

To be fair, Eldar battle tactics in the lore generally revolve around either hitting an opponent in such a way that they can't fight back, or manipulating someone else into taking the brunt of the damage for them. At least, when the writers aren't looking to have them killed off in mass numbers that is, because killing Eldar in rather ridiculous ways has been the 'in' thing for a while.

Since that kind of battle theme can't be implemented in game terms (or it could, but would be maddeningly frustrating to play against) the glass-cannon style fits them just as well.

I think we should just look how it''s going in tabletop

[Codex]

Yes because Tabletop solves all game design issues and translates perfectly into real time.

[saltychipmunk]

I love how obviously ironic the rate at which Eldar in the game tend to bleed is, although I understand it is their race design. Like Space Marines there are very few of them in the galaxy but they bleed like crazy! I am not proposing to change this,worry not, just needed to voice a little pet peeve that was eating at me when I play.

you could argue that the way eldar bleed in this game is only because the way eldar players command units is blatantly inferior to the actual intellectual and strategical prowess of an actual eldar commander .

The definitive git gud situation.

[Laplace's Demon]

I love how obviously ironic the rate at which Eldar in the game tend to bleed is, although I understand it is their race design. Like Space Marines there are very few of them in the galaxy but they bleed like crazy! I am not proposing to change this,worry not, just needed to voice a little pet peeve that was eating at me when I play.

you could argue that the way eldar bleed in this game is only because the way eldar players command units is blatantly inferior to the actual intellectual and strategical prowess of an actual eldar commander .

The definitive git gud situation.

Are there any replays you can post where eldar win a game without bleed? I'd be very interested to see how they manage that.

I think it speaks more to the mentality of power armor players than anything else, when they lecture eldar about not-bleeding. Does anyone really think Dire avengers don't bleed if played well? Really? Caeltos is literally dropping their req price currently in 2.5.... People can be baffling sometimes :/

[Dark Riku]

Are there any replays you can post where eldar win a game without bleed? I'd be very interested to see how they manage that.

I think it speaks more to the mentality of power armor players than anything else, when they lecture eldar about not-bleeding. Does anyone really think Dire avengers don't bleed if played well? Really? Caeltos is literally dropping their req price currently in 2.5.... People can be baffling sometimes :/

Just look at Noisy's play in the previous MRT. Or at some good Eldar mains. Heck, even some of my Eldar replays if anyone cared to save them.

When played well, they don't bleed. And don't argue that losing a model on them equals bleeding.
Caeltos' tentative changelog indeed shows 270 req DA, that doesn't mean that this will go through and I certainly hope for balance's sake it won't.
People can indeed be baffling A LOT of the times.

[Interdiction]

Are there any replays you can post where eldar win a game without bleed? I'd be very interested to see how they manage that.

I think it speaks more to the mentality of power armor players than anything else, when they lecture eldar about not-bleeding. Does anyone really think Dire avengers don't bleed if played well? Really? Caeltos is literally dropping their req price currently in 2.5.... People can be baffling sometimes :/

When played well, they don't bleed. And don't argue that losing a model on them equals bleeding.
Caeltos' tentative changelog indeed shows 270 req DA, that doesn't mean that this will go through and I certainly hope for balance's sake it won't.
People can indeed be baffling A LOT of the times.

I don't claim to be a major expert on Eldar so I'll defer to your authority on the matter, and I was originally referring to their low health in the game compared to their armor lore-wise. In fact this probably should have been posted in "Random Stuff" since it was just my mind wandering after playing Eldar that spurred this thread's creation! Granted I do know enough to say that you are right in regards to DA's being too cost efficient next patch.

[Laplace's Demon]

Are there any replays you can post where eldar win a game without bleed? I'd be very interested to see how they manage that.

I think it speaks more to the mentality of power armor players than anything else, when they lecture eldar about not-bleeding. Does anyone really think Dire avengers don't bleed if played well? Really? Caeltos is literally dropping their req price currently in 2.5.... People can be baffling sometimes :/

Just look at Noisy's play in the previous MRT. Or at some good Eldar mains. Heck, even some of my Eldar replays if anyone cared to save them.

When played well, they don't bleed. And don't argue that losing a model on them equals bleeding.
Caeltos' tentative changelog indeed shows 270 req DA, that doesn't mean that this will go through and I certainly hope for balance's sake it won't.
People can indeed be baffling A LOT of the times.

I'm not saying losing one model = bleed. But losing more than that on a unit with 5 models is debatable. Losing only 2 models may not sound like a lot, but when you factor in the fact that it means you've lost 40% of the squads killing ability.... It take a lot of dead guradsman etc to get to 40% reduced damage output and that looks like bleed to me. What is bleed in your experience? Getting reduced to 1 model seems like more than bleed.... so getting brought down to 2/5?

I am actually really interested to see more eldar replays from you Riku. I would like to learn how to reduce eldar bleed when I play and it honestly would be a huge help. I'm searching the MRT replays for noisy as eldar now but there don't seem to be many

[Dark Riku]

Latest MRT Noisy played FS a bit. You won't find me playing Eldar much as I very much dislike them both here and on TT for fluff reasons.

[Oddnerd]

The whole point of the eldar is that they fight in a way that doesn't result in bleed. They hit the enemy in a way that allows them to do maximal damage while allowing minimal enemy retaliation. If you find yourself in a static, cover-based firefight with an opponent, you probably aren't playing according to the strengths of the eldar.

[Dark Riku]

Unless it's shuries behind DA shields

[Oddnerd]

[Accidental double post]

[Laplace's Demon]

The whole point of the eldar is that they fight in a way that doesn't result in bleed. They hit the enemy in a way that allows them to do maximal damage while allowing minimal enemy retaliation. If you find yourself in a static, cover-based firefight with an opponent, you probably aren't playing according to the strengths of the eldar.

That's exactly right. The problem is that 1/2 of eldar unit options in T1 are static, cover-based firefight units by design (setup team and rangers). Eldar are forced o commit to set-up team play most of the time, which doesnt reflect to the hit-and-run idea of them.

[Laplace's Demon]

Unless it's shuries behind DA shields

Again, that doesn't work out in real-play in my experience. That's like saying IG arnt a bleed army cause you can just put a set-up team behind them. Low health, light armor = dead infantry = bleed. You can see that effect here, one of the few recent games you play as eldar Riku. Eldar. Bleed. And I'm not finding this MRT noisy FS game easily.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU33Ynb ... V5uFtYcSL6

[Dark Riku]

I don't have the patience for people like you. Thinking 1 game proves something. Learn how to debate first, then come back here.
And search a bit harder. Don't expect anything to be throw into your lap especially when making stupid statements like you do.

[Laplace's Demon]

I don't have the patience for people like you. Thinking 1 game proves something. Learn how to debate first, then come back here.
And search a bit harder. Don't expect anything to be throw into your lap especially when making stupid statements like you do.

I don't think one game proves something, its just one of the few where upper lvl players use eldar. Wise Windu used a warp spider on an MRT when 2.4.1 first dropped (lost 2/3). I can't seem to find replays where players win with any consistently using eldar, much less without bleed. You seem to like making very broad statements like the one i responded to originally about avoiding bleed by simply sitting DA's in front of shuriplats. Getting offended when pressed for evidence like you do sometimes doesn't help anyone improve. If you don't want to back up what you say, why say anything?

I argue that eldar bleed because every replay I have ever seen with eldar has had eldar bleed (including games where you play eldar yourself). All you need to do to prove this wrong is to produce ONE upper level game where eldar wins without much bleed. I suspect the reason no one does is because (drumroll please) none exist. Eldar bleed is a fact for every eldar player in the game, and trying to deny it is very unhelpful unless real examples and methods can be shown in replays, which are pretty easy to post. The way you argue about this is sounds like they're everywhere, which is all the more confusing.

[Wise Windu]

And I'm not finding this MRT noisy FS game.

http://www.twitch.tv/redrupee/v/21177160

http://www.twitch.tv/redrupee/v/21183339

Wise Windu used a warp spider on an MRT when 2.4.1 first dropped (lost 2/3).

Because I'm not that good. I'm probably not the best example to use Which series was that, btw?

[Laplace's Demon]

And I'm not finding this MRT noisy FS game.

http://www.twitch.tv/redrupee/v/21177160

http://www.twitch.tv/redrupee/v/21183339

Thanks for these! Been scouring youtube to no success.

Wise Windu used a warp spider on an MRT when 2.4.1 first dropped (lost 2/3).

Because I'm not that good. I'm probably not the best example to use Which series was that, btw?

It was this one. I don't think its reflective of ability since the changes to GK were still so new for everyone at that point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHt1Eyl5Qbk

[Fexxo]

I love how obviously ironic the rate at which Eldar in the game tend to bleed is, although I understand it is their race design. Like Space Marines there are very few of them in the galaxy but they bleed like crazy! I am not proposing to change this,worry not, just needed to voice a little pet peeve that was eating at me when I play.

This isn't to put anyone down just to inform, Eldar are no where near as few as Space Marines. Combine all the loyal chapters together and I don't think you get over a million Marines. Eldar craftworlds are the size of planets, holding billions of Eldar and there are at least 6 Craftworlds. Though compared to Orks, Imperial Guard and Tyranids there is very few. In regards to moving fast and not having the enemy being able to shoot them down is true but they are not invulnerable, Imperial Guard in the lore literally fill the sky with fire power making it much harder to avoid. I have watched replays and I don't see Eldar bleed in a way which is conflicting with the lore or TT.

[Kvn]

Eldar craftworlds are the size of planets, holding billions of Eldar and there are at least 6 Craftworlds

Just a lore tidbit, the standard population of a Craftworld is usually around a few million. Iyanden, if I recall correctly, was considered the largest of all the Craftworlds, housing half a billion Eldar before it was overrun by Tyranids. Given that there are speculated to be dozens of Craftworlds out there, most being very small and inconsequential to the grand scheme of things, they'd be a much more powerful force if they could count on having billions of troops on their side.

Also, Space Marines might not be numerous, but lorewise they have a bit of backup from things like mortal servants, combat serfs, servitors, techpriests, etc. to help bolster their numbers a little (not counting the allies among the Guard, Scions, Sororitas, or otherwise that they often have backing them up). There are still far fewer of them, but it's worth considering that they act as a part of a greater whole.

[Interdiction]

This isn't to put anyone down just to inform, Eldar are no where near as few as Space Marines. Combine all the loyal chapters together and I don't think you get over a million Marines. Eldar craftworlds are the size of planets, holding billions of Eldar and there are at least 6 Craftworlds. Though compared to Orks, Imperial Guard and Tyranids there is very few. In regards to moving fast and not having the enemy being able to shoot them down is true but they are not invulnerable, Imperial Guard in the lore literally fill the sky with fire power making it much harder to avoid. I have watched replays and I don't see Eldar bleed in a way which is conflicting with the lore or TT.

Honestly it could be a few million or a few billion but there hasn't been a concrete number put forward to my knowledge.

[saltychipmunk]

i think the more important concept is that their number is finite and dwindling where as the other races , even space marines have methods of replenishment.

so even if the eldar have a few digits over sm the fact that sm are ultimately replaceable makes individual eldar more valuable in a sense.

[Dark Riku]

If you don't want to back up what you say, why say anything?

Because there are stupid statements being made without any "back up".

I argue that eldar bleed because every replay I have ever seen with eldar has had eldar bleed (including games where you play eldar yourself). All you need to do to prove this wrong is to produce ONE upper level game where eldar wins without much bleed. I suspect the reason no one does is because (drumroll please) none exist.

"Non exist" because you haven't seen every replay out there and because nobody cares enough to save replays and post them here.
I for one do not save my replays as when I do play, I try to enjoy the game.
I used to save my replays back in the glory days for myself to see and analyse where I fucked up. Maybe try that first?
It doesn't help that you state things as facts either. When they are actually your personal opinions and narrow observations.

[Fexxo]

I am not sure what you saying about the numbers of Space Marines being able to be replenished. Eldar replenish their numbers too, Eldar reproduce. If Eldar didn't it would make literally every life 10 000 years old, which is not likely. There has been few Eldar who have reached that number who are not spirits.

Orks, Imperial Guardsmen and Tyranids numbers are in the trillions. So a population of billions isn't much to be honest. Lets say it's Millions it's a lot more than Space Marines. Space Marine Chapter by Astartes law may only contain 1000 marines, some break that and have 3000 - 4000 but that is a lot less than a million where literally the whole Craftworld is geared to war. Though ok maybe there are more chapters than Craftworlds, the population of one Craftworld exceeds more than 1 million.

[Fexxo]

Also Space Marines are a dwindling faction too, they have a limited amount of gene seed that can be re used. If they lose that gene seed that is it. Chapters have been left to their doom due to Chaos Space Marines invading their fortresses and taking that gene seed for themselves. Leaving no way for the chapter to replenish their numbers.

[Toilailee]

Eldar only bleed in t1 anyway you nub.

[saltychipmunk]

Hmm , i suppose we are just nitpicking who can pop out replacements faster.

I was always under the impression that the eldar method of doing so was extremely inefficient which is why they are considered a dying race in the first place.

but that gene stock bit is a good point, i forgot about that.