Why I believe warriors could use a leader upgrade

[engi_valk]

Hello everyone,

My name is Valkyrie and some of you might know me from the chat and other might not ( I dont blame you for not knowing me, I am still pretty new and a noob but thats besides the point) I am here to discuss a balance change for Tyranid Warriors and the fact I personally believe that they need a leader upgrade. So here goes:

Point 1: Warriors effective hp drops dramatically into mid tier 2
There are a couple of reasons I personally believe that they need this upgrade first off is the tiers you get them. Its a Tier 1 unit, and a freaking strong Tier 1 unit while its still Tier 1. I would never ever say they need a buff in that regard, even going into the early tier 2, warriors are still decent but it quickly falls off when its getting to the more middle grounds of tier 2. The reason I say this is that they have Heavy Inf armour, and 990 HP. During tier 1 and early tier 2 that makes them a very tanky unit but getting into the middle tier 2 a lot (and I do mean a lot) of plasma damage and damage better at killing Heavy Inf starts appearing. This actually lowers their effective HP as a unit. I do understand that is a good thing or else warriors would stay very strong in Tier 2 but with they way you need to play them as a front line melee unit, you do struggle from that effective HP reduction to even get to the back line onto suppression teams.

If we compare warriors in this way to things like howling banshees and catachans (I will mainly focus on banshees because I dont want to type out stats for every unit) you will see these units are meant to fill a similar role but they will do it a lot better going into mid tier 2 than warriors. Howling banshees are a lot more fragile by nature, especially in tier 1 by only having 750 hp and Inf armour, but come tier 2 their effective hp really does not change at all from that original value at all. On top of that, the main job of warriors and banshees is too disrupt and get into backline range units and in the end banshees are a lot better at this aspect with larger AoE suppress than the warriors knock down and with an exarch the unit can handle tanks and has the same hp as warriors in total. Banshees are also faster. and while banshees do cost more with every upgrade that they need meaning of course I dont think warriors should out perform them into tier 2 but the difference is very substantial.

Point 2: Warriors are a big investment into supply and upkeep just for some disruption and synapse
This point is less noticeable but it is worth me taking the time to talk about it, warriors into tier 2 are used for disruption and synapse, but these two things are not mutually inclusive. If you want to keep synapse the entire fight you really cant exploit the disruption because warriors die too fast into mid tier 2 (see point 1) and if want disruption you can have it and then need to insta retreat or lose the squad (and after the glands upgrade you really dont want that) So you are left with a choice of how to use the warriors and most people choose disruption for obvious reasons. This is what they are meant to do but at the end of the day you get the 1.5 second knock back and then you have to retreat them or they die horribly.

Banshees on the other hand (same with other units like catachans as well) have a more guaranteed AoE disruption effect in their suppression (or shotgun blast) along with faster movement means you can get in, AoE suppress and then actually do some melee work (because your effective HP has not dropped by actually increased into tier 2 (see point 1)) before retreating them out again. Catachans with their range knock back at least have the guarantee of hitting any squad they need to with it and are also a hell of alot cheaper on every front.

Point 3: The change of damage types does not really give the warriors increased damage to most things
Oki a bit of a weird point, warriors do become better at hitting vehicles but the damage increase is only actually 3 more when it comes to Heavy Inf and normal inf when you do the adrenal gland upgrade, (21 power melee vs 30 heavy). Obviously this is not a bad thing, a damage increase is always nice but again lets compare that to the banshees whos exarch does 72 heavy melee damage, crushing vehicles way faster than warriors can (she alone is 2 and a half warriors in dps on a tank) and the rest of the squad is still incredibly good at ripping apart heavy inf and inf.

Catachans will get hold of a melta which again is good against all infantry and tanks.

Why I believe a leader upgrade will fix it and what I propose for that leader upgrade
There are some key points that I believe the leader can be a targeted fix for, removing warriors effective hp decrease into tier 2 by adding a more hp intensive model into the squad (which allows them to stay in fights longer) and also buffs their hitting power vs heavy and normal infantry. It will also make it more worthwhile to have warriors in tier 2 as they can be more influential to the game in that tier then while still falling off in tier 3 quite hard.

More idea for the leader is as follows:

Warrior Alpha:
Hp: 430 (about 110 increase on a standard warrior not that drastic and just adds more staying power)
Damage: 30 power melee dps (this will give them a lot of hitting power vs heavy infantry which they currently lack going into tier 2 without compromising their DPS on anything else)
Cost: 125/25 (if I want them to perform close to banshees, gotta make them cost the same.)


Thanks for reading
If I realised I missed anything I will make a comment about it and also post it in this message.

Bye

[HiveSpirit]

Interesting, but could be wierd.
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Something i would suggest is to change Warriors size, from medium to small. Im not sure how accuracy works, if its a damage multiplier, roll if you hit or miss compleatly, or hit further away from where you target. Might be all of them but applied to different weapons. So, when i write here i assume its a damage multiplier straight off.

Its so wrong.. FC, WB, BroC, size small. TSM, ASM, Raptors, Havocs, CSM small. Ogryns small. SS small. All these non commanders have HI or SHI armor though? But Warriors, should have size medium? Melee pvp, plasma pvp, bolter pvp, flamer pvp and supression pvp will still do as much dmg vs these poor warriors. Size medium for warriors means the following weapons get viable vs them (damage multipliers):

anti_vehicle_pvp (csm dread missiles), 0.2 insteed of 0.05.
missile_pvp, TSM missile launcher, 0.2 insteed of 0.05.
armor_piercing_pvp/ brightlance_pvp (venom cannon, lascannons), 0.3 insteed of 0.05.
(minor change) CSM's autocannon's, 0.9 insteed of 0.8.

These weapons get viable to hurt the one of a kind rare: medium sized Tyranid Warrior, extra crispy and shoot up. But these weapons are not viable vs CSM, TSM, majorety of commanders, ASM, raptors, havocs, devs, ogryns.. Isnt that strange? And all of these units are heavy infantry? (Except Ogryns and commanders). Havnt these Thug-Life warriors had enough? Theyre in dire need for some size small chillax.

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On a side note to share what i know, from one nid player to another.

Warriors are like you say there to disrupt and give synapse buffs. If you have vanilla or AG warriors, you can make use of the knockback to make more spare for your 2nd line gaunts to attack. So, warriors move in first, knocks back, followed my Gaunts, then pull back the warriors/ stay in the vecinity or take cover. Warriors and Hormagaunts seem to do get a charge buff vs retreating units, i dont think thats enough though. By just pulling warriors back they will recieve less damage from melee as units have to chase and then it takes time to land a blow, after models struck they are further behind; will take time to chase before landing another hit.

So, theres another change warriors could get, a speed/ charge bonus after the leap. Make them able to hit and run for more survival.

To lessen the microing you could keybind 2 hormas in t2 to 1 button and warriors to the 2nd. If needed, mouse click on one horma to attack another target. Hormas and genestealers will stand for the damage output, theyre much more likley to get off special attacks aswell, doing a little more damage and (genestealers) knockback. Also, rippers works together with AGWB's reverse synapse.

[saltychipmunk]

I disagree with this suggestion for a few reasons.

1 for most races and especially the tyranids much of the durability of a unit boils down too how long it can last before it can take model losses rather than the hp of a full squad. This is why model count plays such a large part when people discuss the durability of units in general.

So when you say 900 ish hp squad , that does not necessarily mean much , 900 hp squad that has 3 models does as it tells me it can take at-least 300 damage before something goes pop. And in the case of warriors when they pop , they actually pop.

In most cases all a leader upgrade does is add a model. but that rarely increases the amount of damage needed to make a model pop. Not unless the leader has a damage distribution mechanic (where damage too the leader is spread between the squad).

if that is not the case then really you only have a 1 in 4 chance of having a higher hp model get hit (and by extension raise how long it takes to lose a model)


2 I think you miss understand the role of the warriors. Warriors are 100% a support unit rather than a front line combat unit. You dont buy them for their damage, heck you don't buy them for their durability. you buy them for the synapse and the disruption. This is also why they are so cheap

300 30 for a 900 hp melee unit with a 100% first strike knock back charge is stupid cheap. you pump anymore into that and you get balance issues.


Nids as a whole are designed so that no one unit actually functions well on its own , rather they contribute to a greater whole. gaunts have low melee skill, but warriors happen to have a skill ignoring knock back. not coincidence. gaunts are brittle , but warriors have a synapse that make them more durable.

warriors do low dps, but hormagaunts have some of the highest damage to cost to model ratios in the game.


Frankly i think the primary issue with them is that the barb-strangler upgrade does make them too vulnerable in late game and that should be what is addressed . perhaps a modest hp buff per teir of around 10% each tier?

Adreno warriors are not to be messed with .. especially in pairs. (dont knock it till you try it.. its good stuff)

[HiveSpirit]

Another thing you could do to increase warriors survival is to change the synapse bomb effect.

Consider only to give synapse bomb if its the last/ only synapse creature in that radius. From a TT perspective, if a unit has synapse it has it till its gone.
From lore and what makes sence, yea it might work to give a synapse bomb each time a synapse creature dies. What also could make sence would be that the synapse creatures turns on/ off or "allocates" the synapse, or takes turn who gives who synpase.

And then its the knockback (i should check up these things..), i think its ability knockback and it might effect retreating units (not sure). Its very punishing and easy to get squad wipes once a synapse bomb goes off. Changing the synapse bomb effect to not effect retreating units could be fair.

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@saltychipmunk - I dont think its fair to force nids to buy another unit just to get on par with other factions units, while "punishing" warriors survivability as much as the game does atm. Im speaking about warriors beeing size medium, "no" charge speed boost and synapse bomb ability knockback.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I'll give you three reasons why Warriors are an amazing unit as they are right now:

• Basic synapse
• Melee synapse
• Reverse synapse

As has already been stated by saltychipmunk, Warriors are not meant to be on their own but rather be surrounded by units it can benefit from (see reverse synapse) and give benefits to (see other two synapses).

The synapse backlash is also fine as it is because it is the most critical strategy to defeating Tyranids (not saying it is the only one). Being able to turn it on and off at will also does seem kinda unbalanced.

They also do not become less important or have less of an impact in the later game because their synapse is really important to a lot more creatures than just Hormagaunts and Termagaunts (see e.g. Tyrant Guard - speed synapse).

Tyranid economy is (imo) the strongest out of all races. Hormagaunts and Termagaunts cost next to nothing and are very cost-effective too. I believe it was by design, to tie all the upkeep into the backbone creatures to make it more obvious that these are the important ones. Tyranids really don't need any buffs to their economy. Knowing that you can actually deal some crippling blows to a Tyranid player by hitting his synapse creatures instead of Gaunts is very important and (imo) the one thing that makes their economy managable.

Warriors are also not meant to be considered AV. You have Venom Brood for that. By the way, you are forgetting the reverse synapse here (see above):

Warrior Brood Adrenal Gland damage is amplified based on the self-owned Hormagaunts and Termagants in close proximity to them. Each Termagants/Hormagaunt within synapse radius increases Warrior Brood damage by 1.5%, to a maximum increase of 50%. Requires Adrenal Gland upgrade. Radius 32. Passive ability.

[Dark Riku]

@HiveSpirit. Synapse bombs do not knock back in retreat in Elite.
The numbers you are referring to are for accuracy. They aren't damage multipliers but rather the chance it has to hit.

Thing I wanted to mention have already been mentioned. I join the Warriors do not need a buff side.

[Wise Windu]

Another thing you could do to increase warriors survival is to change the synapse bomb effect. Im not sure, but either the synapse bomb does up to 80 melee dmg or 15 melee dmg per model upon going off, to synapse effected units in radius 32.

Consider only to give synapse bomb if its the last/ only synapse creature in that radius. From a TT perspective, if a unit has synapse it has it till its gone.
From lore and what makes sence, yea it might work to give a synapse bomb each time a synapse creature dies. What also could make sence would be that the synapse creatures turns on/ off or "allocates" the synapse, or takes turn who gives who synpase.

And then its the knockback (i should check up these things..), i think its ability knockback and it might effect retreating units (not sure). Its very punishing and easy to get squad wipes once a synapse bomb goes off. Changing the synapse bomb effect to not effect retreating units could be fair.

Synapse bombs (and I'll add this to the Codex soon) deal damage in a radius 25, and deal different damage to different things. All of the damage is percentage based, and all of the knockback is weapon knockback. The ability is tyr_synapse_death, btw. Find it through the Warriors' health ebps node under death_actions. It spawns an entity that has the ability.

Hormagaunts, Termagants (which apparently means "a harsh-tempered or overbearing woman" btw lol), Raveners, Rippers, and T3 Lictor all take 14% health damage. Genestealers take 18% health damage. Carnifexes and Tyrant Guards take 10% health damage.

Where did you find the values you mentioned in the beginning of your post?

[Forestradio]

you are now being manually made aware that ag warriors with enough gaunts/gants nearby do 10% less dps than an assault terminator squad

[Black Relic]

I made a post for this before but i deleted the whole thing so i stopped. But everything what I wrote has pretty much been said. Warriors melee synapse is amazing and that's why warriors are so amazing in t2. Genestealers get 90 melee skill under it. Banshees have a melee skill of 70 out of the gate. Not only do the banshees have no way to special the genestealers but the genestealers have a 25% chance to perforce a special attack. Pretty big.

But I do agree the the barbed strangler needs to be looked at. This is what i came up with. Warriors with barbed strangler benefit from range synapse. However the damage of the barbed strangler is not increased but its range is increased by 4-5.

Warriors are always going to be focused down weather they have AG or the BS (lol). But come t2 the barbed straglers warriors dont have the health pool to remain useful and their range on the BS usually is what gets them into trouble especially since power melee and plasma damage starts hitting the field. The range increase would help let the warriors stay near the termaguants to help against the melee but still allow them to be threatened by ranged units. The warriors at the increase ranged also allow them to pull back from range fire to avoid losing a model.

Since Warriors w/ barbed strangler would depend on another squads Venom brood warriors with range synapse they would also be affected by a synapse backlash. I think this would allow players to change up the nid t2 and and more diversity to nid builds and nid openings in t1. I am also pretty confidant that multiple synapse builds would be a more common occurrence. I really would like this if it was added. I'm not totally aware about any balance issues with this change though. Maybe the range increase would be one but the health increase should not be one imo.

[saltychipmunk]

@saltychipmunk - I dont think its fair to force nids to buy another unit just to get on par with other factions units, while "punishing" warriors survivability as much as the game does atm. Im speaking about warriors beeing size medium, "no" charge speed boost and synapse bomb ability knockback.

I do, because that is thematically what tyranids are about. individually each of their units are least cost effective in the game. but together they are the most cost effective in terms of raw stats.

However i do think the current warriors are in fact too easy to pop. I was playing a game where a fella spammed plague marines and i was losing warrior models because the missiles were actually hitting pretty regularly.

I am not entirely sure why their hp was nerfed by 100 ish either as even when they had 1k/1.6k hp they were a joke to deal with if you had any kind of anti melee blob mechanic in your army.

[HiveSpirit]

300 30 for a 900 hp melee unit with a 100% first strike knock back charge is stupid cheap. you pump anymore into that and you get balance issues.

Nids as a whole are designed so that no one unit actually functions well on its own , rather they contribute to a greater whole. gaunts have low melee skill, but warriors happen to have a skill ignoring knock back. not coincidence. gaunts are brittle , but warriors have a synapse that make them more durable.

That knockback charge now has a cooldown of 12 seconds, and a minimum distant of 5 to be able to use it.
Though, you could always hope only 1-2 of the models uses their knockback charge which would leave 1-2 models "free", still having it at their disposal.
Yea, its pretty powerful if you can handle the micro.

Frankly i think the primary issue with them is that the barb-strangler upgrade does make them too vulnerable in late game and that should be what is addressed . perhaps a modest hp buff per teir of around 10% each tier?

Interesting idea.
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@Adeptus Noobus

Code: Select all

The synapse backlash is also fine as it is because it is the most critical strategy to defeating Tyranids (not saying it is the only one). Being able to turn it on and off at will also does seem kinda unbalanced.

I ment that like a lore/ logical reason to only dish out synapse bombs if its the last/ only synapse creature in the vecinity/ synapse radius.
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@Dark Riku

Synapse bombs do not knock back in retreat in Elite.
The numbers you are referring to are for accuracy. They aren't damage multipliers but rather the chance it has to hit.

Thanks, i wasnt sure about that. Im probably mixing it up with retreating synapse creatures knockbacking other units. Also, i did though synapse creatures knockbacked eachother, were wrong there aswell.

The accuracy thing, most of these weapons does aoe damage and will hit something in a blob anyway. Nonetheless, giving them 20-30% chance to hit instead of 5%, on what you want them to hit, makes them viable weapons vs warriors/ size medium units. This kinda means that every weapon in the game will more or less be viable vs warriors, and that just shouldnt be.

Im not sure what "terrain hit" means, if its just an animation or accualy hits something in that terrain radius 1. Wise Windu probably knows this, he knows everything =)

@Wise Windu

The ability is tyr_synapse_death, btw. Find it through the Warriors' health ebps node under death_actions. It spawns an entity that has the ability.

How does that ability knockback entity effect the units in the game?

Lol on termagants meaning.

The 80 dmg in total, idk from where, just something i saw/ remembered, probably mixed it up.
The 15 dmg, seems like i mixed it up with Warriors damage upon leaping/ knocking back. In the epbs file tyr_warrior.rbf.

Found tyr_synapse_death.rbf and saw what you said, thanks.
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@Black Relic

But I do agree the the barbed strangler needs to be looked at. This is what i came up with. Warriors with barbed strangler benefit from range synapse. However the damage of the barbed strangler is not increased but its range is increased by 4-5.

Interesting idea.
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@saltychipmunk

I do, because that is thematically what tyranids are about. individually each of their units are least cost effective in the game. but together they are the most cost effective in terms of raw stats.

I ment, i dont think its fair to be "forced" to buy synapse creatures/ warriors to be on par with other factions when warriors are so "easily" popped, when all weapons in the game are viable vs them. In general i got no issue with nid units depending on eachother/ warriors.
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It would be awesome if non devourer raveners and genestelers worked for the AGWB reverse synapse aswell =)

[Wise Windu]

Im not sure what "terrain hit" means, if its just an animation or accualy hits something in that terrain radius 1. Wise Windu probably knows this, he knows everything =)

:3 lol

That's just what happens when the weapon misses and hits terrain instead. For example, if you look at the sm_frag_grenade.rbf, it says the "splat" crater can be from 3 to 4 radius, gives a list of the splat textures used - which you can find if you extract the game's art files - and what kind of cover will be created by the terrain hit. And then if you check the sm_flamer or something, it doesn't have a list of splats, and the cover type is "tp_open", a.k.a. no cover.

How does that ability knockback entity effect the units in the game?

Not sure what you mean. It isn't an ability knockback entity, just a regular spawn_entity action.

The 15 dmg, seems like i mixed it up with Warriors damage upon leaping/ knocking back. In the epbs file tyr_warrior.rbf.

Found tyr_synapse_death.rbf and saw what you said, thanks.

Ah, okay. No problem

[HiveSpirit]

That's just what happens when the weapon misses and hits terrain instead. For example, if you look at the sm_frag_grenade.rbf, it says the "splat" crater can be from 3 to 4 radius, gives a list of the splat textures used - which you can find if you extract the game's art files - and what kind of cover will be created by the terrain hit. And then if you check the sm_flamer or something, it doesn't have a list of splats, and the cover type is "tp_open", a.k.a. no cover.

How does that ability knockback entity effect the units in the game?

Not sure what you mean. It isn't an ability knockback entity, just a regular spawn_entity action.

Ah, ok, i get the terrain hit mechanic. But i still wonder, If for ex 20 hormagaunts would stand on that terrain hit spot, would they get damaged? The case beeing, the lascannon (dev lascannon, predator lascannon aso) and missile (csm dread or tsm missile launcher aso) shot "misses" with the accuracy.

Predator lascannon, tsm missile launcher and alike has aoe on their hits, which should still damage whatever is there, wherever the shot lands right?

But Devastator lascannon does not have an aoe (would probably be treated like normal bolter/ piercing dmg that misses), would it hit whatever (if there where), wherever it hit? Dev lascannon doesnt have any aoe, but has a terrain hit radius which makes me whonder what accualy happen to those missed (failing accuracy) shots.

When where at it, what happens to piercing damage misses and alike, nothing?

Does spawn_entity action effect units who are there?

[Wise Windu]

But i still wonder, If for ex 20 hormagaunts would stand on that terrain hit spot, would they get damaged?

Yes, if the weapon has AoE (under area_info). The way to set up whether or not the splat/cover happens is to set "use_terrain_hit" to "True". And if there are no splats listed, it just indents the terrain at the targeted location without the extra texture. That's the only thing preventing the splats from happening with other weapons. It's just that it only tends to be used for weapons that are already targeting terrain, like the grenades. One exception I can think of are the Baneblade cannons. The ability and the main cannon both apply cover to the area around where they hit, even when the main cannon hits its target (I messed up in the previous post when I said this applies when it misses). I think a lot of tanks leave cover, too.

When where at it, what happens to piercing damage misses and alike, nothing?

Yep, nothing, because they're set not to. They could be changed to do something, though. Just needs an AoE and the use_terrain_hit.

Does spawn_entity action effect units who are there?

It can be set to clear the area with a heavy crush. But the only reason this entity affects nearby units is because the entity that spawns has the synapse bomb ability. If the ability and animation weren't there, you wouldn't even know an entity was spawned, and the units there wouldn't react at all. ----ghosts----

[saltychipmunk]

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@saltychipmunk

I do, because that is thematically what tyranids are about. individually each of their units are least cost effective in the game. but together they are the most cost effective in terms of raw stats.

I ment, i dont think its fair to be "forced" to buy synapse creatures/ warriors to be on par with other factions when warriors are so "easily" popped, when all weapons in the game are viable vs them. In general i got no issue with nid units depending on eachother/ warriors.
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I knew exactly what you were going for, unfortunately i still stand by what i said , thematically nids should need synapse creatures to function well. Just be glad relic did not go all fluffy on us and cause non synapse creatures to go feral when out of synapse.

Regardless I think what you are really concerned about is how the nid army is largely dependent on specifically buying warriors especially for nid commanders who do not start with synapse.

I kind of agree in a sense that really all nid commanders should provide synapse from the word go. Even if it is not fluffy for either a ravener or a lictor to have synapse. in the context of the game it does sort of unreasonably force the use of warriors for those two commanders in most conventional games where as the hive tyrant gets both the benefit of synapse from the word go, meaning warriors are purely optional too him and he gets better nids in the opening skirmish, in addition to too his implicit perks such as a very high base hp, suppression immunity and cover destruction.

plus if we give RA and LA some synapse we get a perfect excuse too do what ever the heck we want to flesh hooks.


Of course many experienced nid players can argue that the active abilities of the LA and RA make synapse unnecessary, but i somewhat disagree with that.

they are commanders of their army, and what kind of leader creature in a nid swarm doesn't evolve synapse? it is not like nids can't make those units grow synapse. the whole race is designed to evolve shit that does exactly that.

[Dark Riku]

As you said already, giving the RA and LA basic synapse would be a ridiculous unwarranted buff to Tyranids.
If you don't want to be "forced" (This notion is amusing to me btw ) to buy warriors, the HT hero option is always there for you to take.

[HiveSpirit]

I live to amuse.
Non warrior/venom brood gameplay sounds interesting. But is it viable (with whatever hero)? How would one play it out with that, strenghts and weaknesses.

[saltychipmunk]

As you said already, giving the RA and LA basic synapse would be a ridiculous unwarranted buff to Tyranids.
If you don't want to be "forced" (This notion is amusing to me btw ) to buy warriors, the HT hero option is always there for you to take.

That is not really fair answer though. The HT is a different play style. so saying he is a suitable replacement to either LA or RA as an answer to how warriors are *optional* seems unfair to people whose play style does not line up with a single tanky hero with suppression immunity and a melee focus.

It would be similar to orks only getting waaagh if they buy the pain boy or play warboss, or if ig could only repair vehicles if they purchased spotters or played lord general. technically speaking none of those are particularly necessary , you dont need waaagh and you can technically side step not being able to repair by never buying vehicles but it does harshly limit options in key situations or at the very least makes certain options far less desirable.

I can understand how you would find the concept of synapse being forced on us as amusing since realistically it is only a 20 - 30% damage resistance aura on paper that really doesn't sound like much . but that is pretty darn useful to have when your non synapse creatures are considered the most brittle units in the game.

I also understand how giving LA or RA implicit synapse with no other changes would be , simply put, silly. Plus since if i may hazard a guess you play 1v1 a hell of alot more than me. I can appreciate that the 1v1 play style spreads armies out and by extension synapse may not be as impactful in the early ninja game.

[Asmon]

Playing without warriors is perfectly viable, thought obviously counter-intuitive design-wise. It's like playing Chaos without heretic worship. You can't have only advantages, you have to give up something.

And warrior leap is awesome. It has low cd thus if you micro them perfectly you can achive endless kockback fairly easily, while gaunts do their job.

[saltychipmunk]

But chaos always have heretics and by extension access to worship(unless they let their free tics die). which means the choice of using or not using worship is one that costs chaos nothing.

Where as with synapse only the hive tyrant can claim that to be true. but for the LA or RA the that decision always requires money and pop cap space.

[HiveSpirit]

Playing without warriors is perfectly viable, thought obviously counter-intuitive design-wise. It's like playing Chaos without heretic worship. You can't have only advantages, you have to give up something.

And warrior leap is awesome. It has low cd thus if you micro them perfectly you can achive endless kockback fairly easily, while gaunts do their job.

Warriors cooldown got increased from 6 to 12 seconds, so its not so low anymore.

[Asmon]

Still endless kb can be done, vs single entities at least.

[saltychipmunk]

It is a rather huge stretch though since 12 seconds can more often than not be way longer than any one engagement. Probably still useful in isolated circumstances between 2 individual units.