Apothecary build review

[Skyward Sorceror]

Afew things I will mention straight out before I post this:
1. Currently due to Internet Provider problems (Limited Data plan), I play offline against AIs. This likely means the following build is far less effective against Human players
2. I tend to favor quick-teching it seems (Gen spamming immediately, I also notice AI seem incapable of targetting Gens except via abilities. To activate it is to render it UN-capable).

My following build as a Apothecary is:
T1:
SM-Devestators, plus Storm Bolter
T2:
Sternguard squad, give devastator Adv Targ, Combat stimulatants, IME
T3 Assualt squad, then sternguard, and maybe a terminator squad.

This build will likely get slammed so before I eventually get a better internet provider I wanna know if this build is Liable for actual multiplayer.

[Wise Windu]

Is this in a 1v1? I'll assume that with my answers for now.

First thing is about the quick teching. Placing down all those generators without buying a Scout or Tactical Marine squad will put you severely behind in engagements, and your opponent will easily out-maneuver you or just overpower you, and will have a significant map control advantage. Even if you get to Tier 2 first, you will have a pretty large disadvantage if your opponent puts any pressure on.

T1:
SM-Devestators, plus Storm Bolter

Like I mentioned above, going straight to Devastators without getting a Tactical Marine squad or Scouts will leave you very vulnerable, and even if you get the Devastators out without taking much damage, having only your Apothecary and a Scout squad in addition will mean very unfavorable engagements for you when you fight your opponent, who has likely gotten much more in Tier 1.

T2:
Sternguard squad, give devastator Adv Targ, Combat stimulatants, IME

Again a light Tier. It is also severely lacking in anti-vehicle potential, and if your opponent fields a walker of some kind, it isn't likely that you'll be able to deal with it. Even if you give the Devastators a Lascannon instead of the Advanced Targeting, your opponent will again likely have more units than you and will be able to quickly disrupt the lascannon and prevent it from doing any real damage. Also, the upgrades you get on your Apothecary will heavily depend on the match-up and your opponent's unit composition, so going into a match with set upgrades in mind is generally not advisable. Although, there are some wargears that can be used in a lot of situations.

T3 Assualt squad, then sternguard, and maybe a terminator squad.

I assume you mean Vanguards? Either way, this is again lacking in anti-vehicle, and the unit choices in general up to this point leave you with not much variety in unit composition. You can be pretty much countered by anti-heavy infantry units and vehicles, with little way to deal with it since your opponent will probably have more units than you due to your fast teching. A vehicle in Tier 2 would help a lot with this, but again, I'd recommend a longer Tier 1 to ensure you make it to the later stages of the game safely.

Not the most detailed advice, but hopefully this helps a bit

[Skyward Sorceror]

Thanks, it helps, and yes it is a 1 v 1. Thank you, it pays to have these things drilled in before it becomes too big a habit.

[Narcolepsy]

I mainly play Apo at the minute. I'd say beyond the build order (which Mr Windu has already explained) I'd suggest not focusing on being slaved to strict rules. Apo can quite happily be quite a decent melee commander when needed. Flying into a bunch of squishies with the sanguine chainsword and dropping vials can work great, especially if he's backed up by jump troops.

There's other reactive things too that hold out for team games too, eldar are countered quite well by two scout units with upgrades.

SM have such a great T1 it's almost always* worth going hard T1 and getting assault marines out too. The two great things about SM beyond their general tankiness are their adaptability and long game scaling. Getting ASM in T1 not only protects against suppression, but scale to be light AV and then Vanguard who eat most things for breakfast. Double scouts mean your opponent is spending as much time back capping his req points that you turned off as he is trying to engage you. Say he's playing IG or Orks, that's one less unit on the front line trying to swamp your solitary tac squad.

What I'm saying is (IMHO) is that SM are generally played like Bruce Lee. Your opponent asks a question, and you are punishing him for showing his hand. The killing blows come not from what units you have bought to press the battle but from how you exploit the weaknesses in his force composition.

Woah, that was pretty zen.


*except when it isn't

[Skyward Sorceror]

Ok, so I took into mine you guys advice, but I'd like you guys to review my battle and judge for yourselves. But for this match I went the following build:
T1:
TSM, SM, DM (Devestator Marines, just incase you didn't get the alias), Storm Bolter,ASM, Flamer for TSM.
T2:
Combat stims, ASM Sergeant, TSM Sergeant, and Sanguine Chainsword, issued Lascannon to Devestator squad, DM again (The first died unfortunately, due to neglect-ion.), and last of all ASM got Thunder and Lightning.
T3:
A squadron of assualts who then got Vanguarded.

I feel like I was still lacking in AV, but fortunately the IG AI didn't deploy much in the form of Heavy armor (The highest I saw was a Chimera).

Thank you again, for teaching this Apothecary Neophyte

[Narcolepsy]

Watching replays vs CPU isn't really necessary. Here's what I pick up from your text.

I feel like I was still lacking in AV, but fortunately the IG AI didn't deploy much in the form of Heavy armor (The highest I saw was a Chimera).

Exactly. You weren't lacking in AV, you didn't need AV. Knowing you were playing IG you bought *the precursors* to hard AV anyway in the form of Devs, which are pretty standard for suppression anyway. It's not about build orders so much as being in a position to swiftly counter your opponent's moves. Like chess, you're thinking a couple of moves ahead.

So I'm playing IG, I can expect to see HWT, a couple of GM squads, almost definitely a sentinel and probably a turret, so I want to be building to throw off the defensive line. IG will always out number you, so you're back capping, hitting power, thinning out his squads. A good IG player vs SM will always smash your power if he can, so fluidly you must prevent his numbers over-running you whilst also asking questions of HIS army composition. If he puts out a HWT, you're likely to go ASM. If you go ASM, he'll go catachans. If you go Devs, he'll probably put out some artillery spotters.

What I'm saying is it's not about (for SM) always smashing out a load of units and throwing them at the other guy, but doing multiple jobs at once. Asking and answering. I'm not saying pay no mind to your build order either, but it's not as important as knowing which units are appropriate for which situation, and how you can make the tables turn to your advantage.

This is why it's not really necessary to post a replay of the CPU playing, it doesn't play like a human at all- not even a bad one (like me). Playing CPU is good for working out what the units do, but as to an actual training device, it's pretty weak.

[Skyward Sorceror]

Yeaah I'd play against real players if it weren't for the fact my internet provider is a Limited Data plan... Otherwise I'm all up for practicing my IG and SM against real people.

[Dark Riku]

If you want any practise at all from the CPU, play 1v3 on the highest difficulty. It's a joke otherwise.
You really want to practise versus other real players and not pick up bad habits from playing against the CPU.

4 squads (not counting the hero) is the bare minimum you need in T1 in a 1v1 to survive, otherwise the other player is just going to cap up the map and destroy your farm with overwhelming numbers. Best thing you can do is get beat by others in 1v1, you'll learn the best that way.

[Skyward Sorceror]

Thank you Riku, and I'll keep that painful sounding fight in mind.
Edit: just figured out how to setup such a match, before that I managed to win in 10 minutes 39 seconds in a 500 point FFA match. Attached is the replay.

[Thunderhost]

Be advised that in AI skirmish the computer does not touch your power as soon as you've noded it. This is VERY unlikely to happen in actual matches versus real people. The AI also rarely uses abilities.. In short, the AI is a poor tool in preparation for actual fight against real humans.

[Skyward Sorceror]

true true. I've also noticed it has a habit of hitting itself with it's globals..... >.>

[Nurland]

AI just caps like crazy and doesn't really make concentrated pushes or support vehicles. Retreats too easily from suppression, doesn't dodge abilities or anything.

Generally it can help you a bit with basic mechanics of the game but that's about it.

[Skyward Sorceror]

Someone should really fix that probably, I've even noticed it sending A squad to attack my HQ. Or just waste a entire squadron to take a point.