Patch 2.5 (WIP)

[Black Relic]

nerf "don't do it" and pheromones and menacing visage kk thx bai

Jes plz bo$$.

[Atlas]

Oh and yeah, my GK broken record:
Ops need more nerfs
Add Warrior Acolyte squad to T1
Let GK terminators level (nerf base stats to make room)

I agree with the first two, but I'm a little concerned about GK T3 being shifted from Palas OP to GK Terms OP. I would be ok with experimenting with levels though, but I think we'll need some more iteration before we really get GK Term Variants where we want them. We'll see.

@Nids Discussion

You what bro? Nids economy is probably the strongest part of their race and it's not like the rest of it is bad. The one comment I found to be truly lulzy was the one about how req heavy nids T2 is. Not even Ven can screw up Nid eco.

Also yes, Forest has it right. Nerf FH, Pheremones and Menacing Visage. Then nerf feeder tendrils again and remove LA from game. Insert Spore Mine Alpha instead and we might have balanced nid hero

[Narcolepsy]

Insert Spore Mine Alpha instead and we might have balanced nid hero

Movement is OP. Capillary Tower Alpha or GTFO.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I do not want to be the party pooper but don't you guys want to open a new thread titled "Nid eco" or something more appropriate for your discussion?

You what bro? Nids economy is probably the strongest part of their race and it's not like the rest of it is bad. The one comment I found to be truly lulzy was the one about how req heavy nids T2 is. Not even Ven can screw up Nid eco.

qft

[saltychipmunk]

I would say SM economy is more stable/ robust thanks to low model, high hp and the posibility to easier make use of cover and get a wooping 37,5-70% more effective hp. Less bleed. Also advantage in garrison to have higher dmg output due to less models with higher dmg. And the less vulnerability to aoe dmg.

yeah they have high HP but one tac model loss is equal to 10 termagaunts reinforcing once you have endless swarm up. once you get to T2 and you have better damage types its pretty easy for nids to have the advantage. even with 70% more effective hp tacs still lose out on the efficiency battle. if you look in the other thread there are plenty of downsides as well as advantages to having small squad sizes. in addition nids are able to field more squads for less population/upkeep so they can have an easier time maintaining map control and therefore higher resource income.

I think it should be noted that this is only true because of that endless swarm upgrade which was included explicitly so the gaunt squads could take absurd losses and not obliterate eco. Comparing them to tacs in terms of resource efficiency is kind of wonky after t2 sets in.

plus that other thread kind of started to blur the topic from high vs low to race perks + high and low which i think is also a little wonky to quantify since some races handle high much much much better and some races handle low much much better than others....

Oh and yeah, my GK broken record:
Ops need more nerfs
Add Warrior Acolyte squad to T1
Let GK terminators level (nerf base stats to make room)

I agree with the first two, but I'm a little concerned about GK T3 being shifted from Palas OP to GK Terms OP. I would be ok with experimenting with levels though, but I think we'll need some more iteration before we really get GK Term Variants where we want them. We'll see.

@Nids Discussion

You what bro? Nids economy is probably the strongest part of their race and it's not like the rest of it is bad. The one comment I found to be truly lulzy was the one about how req heavy nids T2 is. Not even Ven can screw up Nid eco.

Also yes, Forest has it right. Nerf FH, Pheremones and Menacing Visage. Then nerf feeder tendrils again and remove LA from game. Insert Spore Mine Alpha instead and we might have balanced nid hero

Nid eco can be req heavy, all you need to do is go for a ton of non gaunt squads. that is literally the only requirement to tossing out that nid eco advantage and feeling the weight of the upkeep, and i wasn't explicitly talking about t2 as in the time period but rather the units that are part of nid t2 in which case all of them are high upkeep and only work because gaunts (a t1 unit) are as people have pointed out... pop light. You lose the gaunts and replace with something non gaunt related ... pop efficiency out the window. That is not exactly a hard thing to do.


As for gk terminators , the main issue is how easy it is to spam them, a single gk terminator squad is very much doable.
The problems start when you get 2 or 3 of the fuckers walking around since they do the pierce dps of a tac squad, have access to av and have that retarded hp pool, damage and ability set.

You simply must not have all that shit on one unit and have it easy to get duplicates of. Hell the entire reason why SM terminators share a cool down AND have that massive cool down in the first place is pretty much because those terminators were an issue when made too spammy and they do not even do half the stuff gk terminators can do (individually).

Also palas were never ever the op unit in gk. it has pretty much always been the fact that gk can get as many terminator units as they want with no gating mechanism. you can mix and match all you want be it pure terms or some healthy term pala action. the end result is you are getting easy access to a shitload of super heavy low model high damage (with retreat what the hell ) extremely versatile squads that doesn't punish your red and doesn't punish you for messing up your mid game (normally facilitated by requiring red .. which you only get alot of by not being terrible)


seeing more than 1 terminator on the field should be a rarity not a core aspect of any race.

[Adeptus Noobus]

[HiveSpirit]

Terminators should cost more while Nobs and Fexes should cost less? Please, enlighten us more

I suggested to lower the vanilla Fex cost and increase the upgrade costs. Preferably just the first. Vanilla fex should cost less because its not a viable play option unupgraded as it is atm, its simply to high of a cost for what you get: slow, high cost, no ability.

Coral is Karl, from The walking dead, it became a meme thing.

Also, im comparing the endless swam upgrade cost to the imperial guardsmen squad upgrade sergeant.

Sure, we can take some games. Just be gentle ^^

4 ES Endless Swarm
How different are Hormagaunts/Termagants from Guardsman infantry squads really? I think the endless swarm upgrade should revolve more around requisition rather than power (if power at all). It takes quite a while to get that upgrade in aswell. Gaunts upgrades doesnt bring in more options really, "rather just makes them slightly better at what they do". Yes, horma can leap a 50% longer, but what do you really get for AG and ES? Its 110r/30p after all. Hormas get temporarily/ situational "faster", 10% more dmg (2 per hit), 10% hp (8 per model), they dont get any ability or new options gameplay wise. Its a req unit that will bleed, theyre designed to bleed and die, forcing the player to put in to much power to get more req conservative is wrong. AG at 15p to hormas seems somewhat/ almost legit atleast (make it 10p), but the ES 15p? Nah.

Its not like hormagaunts has a detonation or are possibile to be a detector unit, no grenade upgrade, shields, heavy infantry model with higher melee skill/hp, upgrades (oh well the end pair do count..). They are a plain bleeding high model melee unit, that pays 110r/30p to make them slightly better with the limited options they do have. Imo thats just to much precious power spent for what limited extra buff/ "options" you get in return. Endless swarm is about requisition cost effiencey, let it be about req and not revolve around power. Nids already need the power for SM, barbed strangler 50p, devourer ravs 55p, hero upgrades and the usual gaunt upgrades. Endless swarm could very well be a t1 upgrade aswell and be around 80req or so.

So, what you get is two gaunts which shares damage and die last. Probably has their own hp and dmg, thats 25% more hp in the unit, and that pair can tank 160 dmg, wow. Its mainly there to just survive i would assume. This is assuming the endless swarm gaunts works just like the other hormas, with the exception to share damage and die last.

Termagants, TS gives them another option; to slow. Its just 5s though but gives them a few more options, slow to avoid/ dodge or slow to damage. I would say TS's 15p upgrade cost is more legit than hormas 15p upgrade cost, because of the increased options/ possibilities given. Endless Swarm, doesnt bring Termas any more options, its basically just a cost effiencey upgrade, it doesnt bring anything new to the plate for Termas. Therefore it shouldnt cost power, its about req.

Endless swarm is like the Guardsman infantry squads upgrade Sergeant, it makes them better at what they already do, it lowers the bleed costs, it does not give them more options.

[saltychipmunk]

Terminators should cost more while Nobs and Fexes should cost less? Please, enlighten us more

Well define terminators.

SM assault terminators and chaos terminators are all fine because they offset their costs in three very specific ways.
1 they are all gated by red which depending on the player can mean 1 of three things:
A only 1 will show up because of the red gate or show up later
B 1 will show up at the cost of a nuke being delayed or not possible
C 1 will show up at the cost of using the other global earlier in the game

2 their upgrades are not upgrades but rather side grades making each terminator better at a specific thing at the cost of something else.
such as lightning claws making assault terminators better against infantry at the cost of being good vs vehicle armor or in the case of chaos terms losing the abilities of a ranged unit and access to the auto-cannon.

The few actual upgrades these terminators do get are often attached to a suitable balanced model. in the case of the gun upgrades they are all tied to the standard powerfist terminator which is inherently more vulnerable in melee than their melee dominant counter parts.

3 finally those other terminators all have clear tactical vulnerabilities , all the melee focused ones have their ranged potency completely removed. all the ranged ones are not so good in melee and can be tied up

In the case of the GK terminators absolutely none of that is true.
1 they are not gated by red which means
A as many as the gk player wants can be fielded with time and money being the only limiter
B They wont ever get in the way of a nuke
C They wont ever get in the way of using the other globals either.

Want 3 terminators and 2 nukes in one game. totally possible. It is an undeserved advantage that should either be removed or have a corresponding cost associated with it.

2 their upgrades actually ARE upgrades . One always gives them a useful ability and the weapon upgrade simple makes their ranged damage vs certain types better. the only downsides to their upgrades is the money to takes to buy them which when you compare it to the frankly absurd costs of the upgrades on nobs and SM/ chaos terminators is a bloody joke.

3They don't have clear tactical vulnerabilities and the soft counters they do have lose potency the more of them there are (namly tanks). they are both potent in melee and dangerous at ranged and this fact never changes.

All of this on is top of the fact that they are non suppressible , knockback resistant, cover obliterating super heavy infantry with a teleport .

In short, they do more, they have access to more , they should cost more when right now they technically cost less .. way less on account of that omitted red cost .

I am glad paladins are getting a red cost and a global but it still leaves the issue of those other terminators being way too good for-essentially less money.

Red is money, it is a resource.. it should not simply evaporate just because gk terminators aren't a deep strike call in. 350 red does not just cover the ability to drop a terminator squad anywhere one wants.

Fexes don't get two get out certain death free cards when they over commit. if you have an exposed fex it is dead just like pretty much every other walker in the game is screwed once its supporting armies are forced off and is on the run. All walkers are inherent risks , the fexes are no exception which is why most walkers got cost reductions and hp buffs over the years.

Nobs on the other hand are easily controllable for a unit that when upgraded is essentially the cost value of a super unit. suppression? totally viable against them until they activate their rage mode.. knockback? totally viable way of wasting that rage mode. And once all the that special goodness is gone they are nothing more than a heavy infantry squad with better than average hp and damage values. all of which can be easily countered by power weapons and plasma/ inferno damage and some well executed disruptive abilities.

But it is not like anyone is suggesting that fexs should get a massive cost reduction or that nobs should be super cheap. (although both could stand to have about 10 - 20 power knocked off of them somewhere (in the case of the fex from the asking price and the nobs from the upgrades).

[Crewfinity]

Nobs on the other hand are easily controllable for a unit that when upgraded is essentially the cost value of a super unit. suppression? totally viable against them until they activate their rage mode.. knockback? totally viable way of wasting that rage mode. And once all the that special goodness is gone they are nothing more than a heavy infantry squad with better than average hp and damage values. all of which can be easily countered by power weapons and plasma/ inferno damage and some well executed disruptive abilities.
.

mekboy's supa tuff beam would like to disagree with you there

[saltychipmunk]

Nobs on the other hand are easily controllable for a unit that when upgraded is essentially the cost value of a super unit. suppression? totally viable against them until they activate their rage mode.. knockback? totally viable way of wasting that rage mode. And once all the that special goodness is gone they are nothing more than a heavy infantry squad with better than average hp and damage values. all of which can be easily countered by power weapons and plasma/ inferno damage and some well executed disruptive abilities.
.

mekboy's supa tuff beam would like to disagree with you there

you should see that on a slugga squad. way cheaper almost as dangerous.

[Cyris]

Oh and yeah, my GK broken record:
Ops need more nerfs
Add Warrior Acolyte squad to T1
Let GK terminators level (nerf base stats to make room)

I agree with the first two, but I'm a little concerned about GK T3 being shifted from Palas OP to GK Terms OP. I would be ok with experimenting with levels though, but I think we'll need some more iteration before we really get GK Term Variants where we want them. We'll see.

I see this response a lot, and it doesn't make sense to me. If GK termies get reduced base stats and get the ability to level, it's a nerf (except that their melee skill scales up now). The purpose of this is to make them less of a "birthed fully formed and powerful" finishing unit and more the core of T3 - like battle tanks are for other races. Let Paladins and the Land Raider (especially with the new red cost) remain as end game super units.

Specific proposed numbers maybe help make this clear:

Current:
Health - 4250
Damage - 63 / 68 (ranged / melee)

Proposed level 1:
Health - 3150
Damage - 50 / 55 (ranged / melee)

Proposed level 4:
Health - 4192 (assuming tac style 10% health per level)
Damage - 58 / 75 (ranged / melee)

I dare someone to say this is a terminator buff It can happen in conjunction with other changes. I'd advocate for a req cost and build time decrease, moving teleport to unlocked by Libera Demonica, and increase the costs of both abilities to 60+ energy each (so you can only cast both at level 2/3). This will make GK terminators MUCH easier to handle out of the gate but rewarding if protected, while leaving Paladins as a super potent finishing move if you save your red.

[destructomat]

Wouldn't this just be another call-in that gives an epic power bash potential to the Inquisitor? Now she doesn't even need sight for the Banewolf and the red+req cost is less than that for a Banewolf. I get that you still have to upgrade them to get their melta weapons but it is still an easy gen bash. Is the red cost being adjusted to reflect the buff to the call-in?

Maybe if there was a casting radius for this, but still ignoring los.

[Atlas]

Words and numbers.

Ah gotcha, so even at level 4 they would be only comparable to current Terms. Ok, makes sense. I've also mentioned putting huge energy gates on Term abilities to promote some energy transfer synergy with the GK faction in general so I'm all about that

Putting all my cards on the table here, but I think the GK Term sidearm change should be great. I think that one will help solve a lot of problems.

[Oddnerd]

Minor detail, but can you give Imperial guard sergeants the repair ability? It will prevent them from occasionally wandering off from the group when a repair command is given.

[Dark Riku]

Well define terminators.

Did you miss the Kappa?
Also, how the autocannon is not a straight up upgrade on the Chaos terminators is beyond my comprehension.

[Cyris]

Minor detail, but can you give Imperial guard sergeants the repair ability? It will prevent them from occasionally wandering off from the group when a repair command is given.

I think (not sure) that this is caused by issuing a move command before the repair. Try telling the GM to move to the spot you want to repair from, then issue the repair. I think it'll cause the units to not wander.

[Atlas]

Minor detail, but can you give Imperial guard sergeants the repair ability? It will prevent them from occasionally wandering off from the group when a repair command is given.

I think (not sure) that this is caused by issuing a move command before the repair. Try telling the GM to move to the spot you want to repair from, then issue the repair. I think it'll cause the units to not wander.

You'd be correct. When a unit is assigned to repair and it's in repair range when the order is given, the rest of the squad will continue with the previous order while one model turns around and repairs. This little micro trick is how you see some players have a forward man repairing a sent while the rest move out of range of a target for example.

It's a really interesting quirk.

[Oddnerd]

Unless it serves a purpose I don't see why they can't get rid of it.

[Cyris]

Unless it serves a purpose I don't see why they can't get rid of it.

Hey man. Think about this for a moment. Who is "they"?

I'm serious. Who should fix this, exactly.

[saltychipmunk]

Well define terminators.

Did you miss the Kappa?
Also, how the autocannon is not a straight up upgrade on the Chaos terminators is beyond my comprehension.

Just because you wish to be sarcastic about it doesn't mean it should be ignored. Otherwise ill have to deal with the fallout for another release cycle.
I will beat that horse's corpse until it is a bloody pile of rotting goo if that is what it takes.

Also did you miss the part where i mentioned that gun purchases are upgrades? ,

"The few actual upgrades these terminators do get are often attached to a suitable balanced model. in the case of the gun upgrades they are all tied to the standard powerfist terminator which is inherently more vulnerable in melee than their melee dominant counter parts. "

I suppose i could have worded that better , but that was the intended meaning of that bit.

I was trying to say that it is balanced by the fact that said upgrade is attached to a model that is far more vulnerable in melee than say the lightning claw purchase. fundamentally it is a choice between going melee ( as in the claws ) or going with that auto cannon. the claws are technically an upgrade to the base powerfists (at the cost of the bolters) and the auto cannon is an upgrade to the bolters at the cost of keeping the squad very vulnerable to melee with its reduced hp and lack of melee focus.

Where as regardless of what you do for the GK terminators, they always have both their bolters (that do a minimal amount of damage less than normal terminators) and their halberds / hammers which do the same as or only minimally less than assault terminators. )

[Oddnerd]

Unless it serves a purpose I don't see why they can't get rid of it.

Hey man. Think about this for a moment. Who is "they"?

I'm serious. Who should fix this, exactly.

Someone who works on the mod.

[Atlas]

* Dark Reaper Exarch now adds +10 sight range to the squad. (If the Exarch dies, this bonus is lost. This is a fail-safe against potential bug so multiple exarch bought on the squad doesn't add several +sight range to the squad)

I'm too lazy to look this up so I'll ask some Eldar players; I think that Reapers have 30 sight and 44 range on their weapons? If that's the case, does that mean that they can still shoot beyond their normal vision range?

How big of a change is this really? Are DRs more attractive to you with this change?

[saltychipmunk]

It is huge.

Think of them as an infantry version of fire prisms. A huge amount of their setup is dedicated to striking from a distance in which their opponents cannot retaliate.

That was made unnecessarily difficult by having a sight range that was only about 70% of their actual range and often put them into harms way .. where they naturally die because all they are is that weapon range. their hp is abysmal and their damage is nothing special when compared to their enemies.

in the end this makes them easier to use... which too a race like eldar is a pretty damn useful trait to have.

[Cyris]

Someone who works on the mod.

Exactly! Modders. Who do not have the ability to change game code at fundamental levels. Which answers you pretty well...

...I don't see why they can't get rid of it.

You are talking like they are leaving things in out of spite or laziness. There is a big difference between being a developer on a game engine, and being a modder tweaking it.

Re: Rangers.
Vision is 60 (40) - That's 60 range seen, and 40 range stealth detection.
The Long Rifle is range 65.

[Crewfinity]

I'm too lazy to look this up so I'll ask some Eldar players; I think that Reapers have 30 sight and 44 range on their weapons? If that's the case, does that mean that they can still shoot beyond their normal vision range?

How big of a change is this really? Are DRs more attractive to you with this change?

codex says range 40. to me it looks like these changes should make dark reapers a bit more independent. instead of relying on rangers or frontline DA's to spot the enemy you can buy the exarch and get a bit more long-range utility on that squad while you send the rest of your army off to backcap things.

however, with the other changes in mind, this is the only perk the exarch gives (besides the extra model), since tempest barrage and the health buff will be gone. I'm not sure if the new exarch will really be worth 85/25, that seems like a lot for just +10 sight, especially since he's not a die-last model.

i like the changes overall though. reapers imo face a lot of internal competition in the eldar roster with fire dragons. only 40 more req, both give premium damage types, and both will now have premium armor type as well. with higher base health on reapers now along with the sight change, their roles seem to be getting more defined, which i think is a good thing. reapers are getting more emphasis on sustained long range DPS, while fire dragons are getting a bit more vulnerable to fit their close range fire support role.

my expectations: DR's will be seen more since FD's are getting nerfed and will not be as good of a blind purchase. exarch will be seen less but the squad will be more effective as a whole.

[Oddnerd]

Someone who works on the mod.

Exactly! Modders. Who do not have the ability to change game code at fundamental levels. Which answers you pretty well...

...I don't see why they can't get rid of it.

You are talking like they are leaving things in out of spite or laziness. There is a big difference between being a developer on a game engine, and being a modder tweaking it.

Re: Rangers.
Vision is 60 (40) - That's 60 range seen, and 40 range stealth detection.
The Long Rifle is range 65.

Oh I see, I thought it was in the modders potential to add/take away abilities on units. Clearly I was mistaken.

FYI - saying "the modding tools available don't allow for sergeants to use repair" is a lot less cryptic and time-wasting then your approach.

[Cyris]

Oh I see, I thought it was in the modders potential to add/take away abilities on units. Clearly I was mistaken.

You are mistaken that giving sarge repair will fix the problem you are talking about. As I initial responded (and Atlas confirmed), it is because you issued a move command before the repair.

Wanna keep going back and forth like this?

[Dark Riku]

"They" can add the repair ability to individual models, assuming they don't have it already.
It could very well aid in the sarges moving away so far. A little bit of micro does indeed solve the issue, but it can't hurt to try.
I know scouts do the same thing, but just don't go that far.

[Wise Windu]

The sergeant already has the repair ability. It's caused by the move command being issued before the Repair command, which has already been mentioned. It happens with all repair units.

[Oddnerd]

"They" can add the repair ability to individual models, assuming they don't have it already.
It could very well aid in the sarges moving away so far. A little bit of micro does indeed solve the issue, but it can't hurt to try.
I know scouts do the same thing, but just don't go that far.

I was actually looking up a post in which you explained this to me - you said:

The sarge will follow your move command even though you start repairing, my guess is that he can't repair and doesn't stop because of it.

This is how it was explained to me, Cyris. The sergeants don't have the repair ability that the standard troops do, so when you issue a repair the sergeant will go through with any existing orders because repair does not apply to him.

EDIT - Windu posted same time as me. If it is an engine thing, why don't I observe GM doing it as well? It has always been the squad leaders acting that way.