GK terminators should be made more expensive or lose certain perks.

[saltychipmunk]

GK Terminators are essentially better terminators in every way.

They have the melee damage potency of assault terminators , but they have the range damage potential of regular terminators
They have access to upgrade to further improve on top of what they already have, where as most terminator upgrades for other factions serve as a replacement or side grade.

They have a limited form of retreat.

They can be spammed because they are not dependent on red.

These are the facts.

However despite all of these perks which they have over other terminators.. they cost effectively the same amount of money.
And this I believe is the largest reason why no one wants to play against gk. They do way too to damn much for way too damn little.

Even more so than the ops spam or the bro cap being annoying or the strikes being clearly better than everything else in their category for the early game.

GK Terminators simply do WAY more than their cost suggests. And this allows a GK player to get away with absolutely stupid things . We all know it to be true. playing gk in team games right now basically boils down too "can we beat this fucker before he gets that t3 terminator train going"

I have been in countless games where the opposing team will be winning by 200 - 300 - 400 tickets , defeating the gk t2 only to have gk come back with 2+ terminators sponging up all the damage while they chase down what ever the hell they want. I am not talking close blow for blow games here. I am talking games where a gk basically is bungling for 15 minutes and then suddenly becomes untouchable for almost ZERO effort.

You cant kite these things, they do enough pierce damage on the move to bleed even heavy infantry in a matter of seconds ( god help light infantry)
You can try vehicle spam but they can just get psi cannons on the terminators. sure the dps is technically low . but they are god damn terminators.. they can follow you all day long.

It is to the point where you have to tank them, (lucky ig and their russ tanks can do just that).

This is something terminators were designed to NOT do. Terminators all have red for a reason. assault terminators have no bolters for a very good reason. Regular terminators are so/so in melee for a reason. So that they can't be spammed as a main unit. So that there are CLEAR methods for countering them that are not race dependent or gear dependent. You kite one variant, you tie up the other.

Or you bait them into getting into a situation they cant get out of..
But you can't do that here, at this point the most effective method killing these things is cheesing ig repairs and ork chain stuns or playing chaos in a hope you can get them before they retreat. And it is lunacy.

It is like needing to jump out of building, and landing into a pool that is on fire while composing a symphony while all your assistant does is hold up a sign.

It is the very definition of unreasonable.

[Interdiction]

First priority imho is to take their retreat away, and as you said should have a cost increase if they keep their current performance so that the spam is at least negated somewhat. At least Paladins are now a call in and lose retreat though next patch, it's a start at least.

[saltychipmunk]

The funny things is that i don't really care much about paladins , They are cool true, but they actually aren't as big a problem as regular gk terminators.

for one thing, they cost way more power (which is good) while not being better in melee (better vs tanks, not necessarily vs everything else). Their ability that increases / slows move speed does not hold a candle to the gk terminators impression of the gravity blade.

But it is that low power cost on standard gk terminators that really gets nuts. for the cost essentially a nob squad ... you get a terminator. this makes it very easy to queue up 2 of them in succession and upgrade them later.

[Paradise Lost]

The funny things is that i don't really care much about paladins , They are cool true, but they actually aren't as big a problem as regular gk terminators.=

You lost me there. Paladins are essentially better GK termies that just won't die while having a much higher impact on the battlefield. I'm glad they'll lose their retreat because unless you fuck up they are virtually unkillable.

Regular termies do nee their nerfs tho.

[saltychipmunk]

The reason why i care less about paladins is because dealing with terminator class units becomes progressively harder the more of them there are . They arent like a blob of nobs which can first be suppressed and then disrupted with knock back to * contain them*.

They are super heavy infantry immune to a bunch of knock back and immune to suppression with a ton of hp. But when there is only one of them things are largely manageable since you will certainly have enough independent units to deal with them. this is true for both paladins and standard gk terminators.

you can use focused fire and kite tactics easier, you can use root tactics easier, stun tactics .... a whole bunch of stuff that you might only have one source of in your given army line up. And while paladins are most certainly way better than gk terminators , they are also more expensive. this means a longer period of time between the first squad of gk super heavy and the second one. More chances to kill the first one before the "spam" in gk termi spam becomes an issue.

once a second squad of terminators hit the field alot of the usual strategies for combating them becomes much less effective , we are talking a jump from around 68 pierce to 140 pierce, not including a jump in ranged av potential from more than one psi weapon. this means kiting with squad s that arent also super heavy infantry are going to get obliterated just by running away. you can still stun one of them or root one of them but what the heck are you going to do about the other one? you were barely were able to force off the first one with all of your abilities and squads focusing on it.

in the end it becomes a numbers game and having 8000 points of unsuppressed hp barreling down on you is going to make your comparatively much squishier legacy units far less effective.

This is also why using leman russ tanks is still very effective because lemanruss tanks under guardsman repair are (like terminators) ridiculously tanky but not everyone has something like that on hand.

Especially since most of those conventional melee units you would use to counter initiate get absolutely melted ( with the exception of units that also have high hp pool like a buffed seer council or nobs or other terminators).

[Cyris]

Pallies are better then GK Terminators in 1v1. Hands down, no questions. They counter GK's late game weakness (battle tanks and high health walkers) while threatening shockwave against melee. The rest of the GK army is more then capable of handling whatever super melee troops threaten them. The only time I'd build GK Termies over Pallies is if I've fielded a very heavy AV composition and killed the opposing vehicles before hitting T3.

Pallies are getting well nerfed next patch, so I'm happy to see things start there. Red cost and no retreat is a real big nerf.

GK Terminators are getting a very mild nerf, though I would be welcome to more.

Replace GK Terminators with a battle tank and GK would be buffed overall, even with the Palladin changes in the patch. Though they'd be more bland.

This topic has been talked to death, I don't see a single thing in here new, or in my comments.

[egewithin]

Primary Note : I don't feel my self okay today, I just had a Black Rage thing and yes, Black Rage is real. It lives insade of me, drives me crazy every night. So I can be a total dick in this post but please do not mind too much as long as I don't keep up on my all posts.

1-) GK Termies and Paladins are all GK T3. Yes, they have LRC and Inteceps I know. But what else? Inteceps are like T2.5 unit IMO. And LRC is not a must, not even a very effective thing in T3 if there aren't any all infantry based armys. So you have to stick to Terminators as a GK and there is no escape from that.

2-) Yes, they have all potencies of Termies but they can't do both of the in the same time. Also, if you try to use your GK Termies in ranges all match like regular Termies, you are an idiot sure.

3-) Its a good thing for you that they can be spamed. One dimentinal armys are dammend to be lost. I have dealth with 3 GK Termies before. Yes, it wasn't easy, but I did since I know what to do and doing it insted of crying on forum.

4-) GK Termies are going to be nerfed from ranged so I hope you won't cry more about their psycannon power.

5-) You call GKTerm OP but have np with Paladins? Ahahahahhahahaahaha!

6-) Terminators cost red because they didn't wanted SM players like ; '' I will camp in my base, protect my power and wait untill my Terminatos arrive. '' That is reasonble because that was me in DoW1. To be honest, the 6 min cooldown in the main brakes of Termie train for SM. You supposed to ask for the same thing for the whole time buud noooooo!

7-) Assault Terminators never had bolters in lore or anywhere, shut up about it.

Paladins are GK Termies with more melee damage and more health. But they can retreat for only now. How is it still possible that you are cool with them?!! The are GK Termies and they are just better!

You are trippin.

[Caeltos]

I have been revisiting some Grey Knights aspect, and thought of introducing a tank that would be unqiue to the Grey Knights in some sense.

However, Grey Knights are mostly renowned for their infantry prescence, and I think that's been accomplished. However, due to the cry-out for the community, I started to look elsewhere for alternatives. And one of them was the Sicaran Battle-tank (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Sicaran_Battle_Tank) which is also useable for DoW2.

However, since it was mostly just a exclusive chapter(astartes) tank. That would be abit too fluff-breaking, unless the community would embrace it. You would argue the Sicaran would be useable by the Ordo Malleus, if they saw fit to use these old machines, since the Inquisition and whatever, can requisition mostly whatever they see fit.

In the end, I would prefer to remain true to the Grey Knights being mostly unique in their specialization in troops, rather than the tank prowess. I would prefer to remain that aspect to the Space Marines, in order to further distinguish the two factions in their respective design in the end-game.

[Cyris]

I have been revisiting some Grey Knights aspect, and thought of introducing a tank that would be unqiue to the Grey Knights in some sense.

However, Grey Knights are mostly renowned for their infantry prescence, and I think that's been accomplished. However, due to the cry-out for the community, I started to look elsewhere for alternatives.

I for one DEEPLY appreciate the lack of a tank in GK, much as I apreciate the lack of setup team or jump troop in T1. It makes them real unique! If a T3 tank is added, I hope it's somehow a support focused tank like the LR (heck, I'd welcome the LR as a nerfed, non-red version). I think that Pallies and Termies need more balance work, but the theme and uniqueness of them are spot on.

Broken record time, plz reconsider Rhino removal from T1 and add T1 Warrior Acolyte squad. T1 transport play is/was a super unique aspect of GK, and the theme of transitioning from Inq forces into GK forces through the tiers is very interesting. A T1 dedicated melee unit will put much less pressure on Ops to fill all roles.

[Atlas]

I say we take GK terms, shoot them in the back of a head with a shotgun and then let SM fanbois feed on their entrails

.... That's basically all I can say about GK terms at this point because everyone's said enough already. This topic has been beaten to death more times than my di..... I-I mean a horse ofc

@ Cyris.

I'm in almost complete agreement. Warrior Acolyte T1 Squad would be super interesting imo. The lack of a GK tank is really nice too. From a pure theory crafting perspective, you can probably just move the GK Dread to T3 and give it a long range AV option like a lascannon. That would keep the GK T2 almost entirely vehicle free. Obviously the Dread would need to be adjusted to work in T3.

[DandyFrontline]

Well, let's see how accuracy penalty on move, rotation speed nerf and replace of charge with assault teleport will change things. Maybe thats will be enough.

[Dark Riku]

@Caeltos, I would preferably keep them more unique and not add a battle tank for GK's.
Preferably the Dread-knight would be added as SHI? The model looked rather finished last thing I remember? Isn't that going anywhere?

[HandSome SoddiNg]

As if Pals costing 650/150 isn't expensive enuff or regular termies & factor in upgrade purchases.

SM/Chaos LC termies would shred em apart

[DandyFrontline]

As if Pals costing 650/150 isn't expensive enuff or regular termies & factor in upgrade purchases.

SM/Chaos LC termies would shred em apart

SM LC termis cost 670/170/350 and they dont have retreat and any range damage while GK termies range damage is ridiculously high (fixed in next patch thought) for unit with such a great melee. Also, LC sux against vehicles

[Adeptus Noobus]

Tbf, SM and Chaos do not struggle against vehicles, so LC are not a risky purchase since you have great AV sources in the respective army rosters.

[egewithin]

I started to look elsewhere for alternatives. And one of them was the Sicaran Battle-tank which is also useable for DoW2.

Nerf its stats before you even put it in the game. That would give the message to everyone.

[Jes]

And one of them was the Sicaran Battle-tank which is also useable for DoW2.

Probably helped by the fact that someone uploaded a mostly functional model of a Sicaran on RelicNews earlier this year, huh?

[Caeltos]

And one of them was the Sicaran Battle-tank which is also useable for DoW2.

Probably helped by the fact that someone uploaded a mostly functional model of a Sicaran on RelicNews earlier this year, huh?

Yes, of course.

Details here: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread. ... aran-model

[ChrisNihilus]

Give the Sicaran to Chaos, replacing the Land Raider Phobos.
You weren't using it as a transport anyway, it's better to remove some confusion.

Sicaran to GK is unacceptable. They don't have them.

[ytimk]

Noob idea for GK brainstorm:
-infantry focus is cool, stands out from other factions, therefore vehicles can be seen as a decent weakness to GK (?);
- termies and paladins stay for GK, but definately reworked (leaving the pros and devs to settle numbers);
-paladins lose psycannon/gets massive rework (maybe gets psybolts instead on all three models to spread damage?);
-paladins no longer anti-all, just great at smashing stuff with uge hammers, vulnerable to range and good power melle;
-GK termies lose psycannon, get a modified version of the strike squad proposed weapon 'psilencer' instead (maybe one on each model so model death reduces damage or psybolts etc?);
-not arguing for GK termies to be a walking mobile supression team - though that would be very unique and pretty funny if balanced with massive costs and nerfs (eg 3 speed);
-GK termies remain potent anti-infantry (they are fluff wise anti deamon right so that keeps purists happy). But they now are more vulnerable to melee walkers and ranged fire;
-kiting GK termie variants (with tanks at least) now back on the menu maybe? No more psycannons to trickle down health of walker/vehicle armour- solution: INTERCEPTORS AHA!;
-teleporting psycannon squad is now a key unit in GK T3 - competing for those precious resources you are saving for termie varaints! Diverse plays and strategies become open - going to gamble on SHI and risk a tank/super unit coming out and punishing you from range?

Yes, this came out of my bottom, but I though it could be thrown in for judgement.

[saltychipmunk]

Tbf, SM and Chaos do not struggle against vehicles, so LC are not a risky purchase since you have great AV sources in the respective army rosters.

I think the only reason why gk struggle currently with vehicles is that the current rhino is quite bad and the vindi is extremely fragile . One of those is getting changed for the better and the other improves the more you use it.

I am especially curious to see how a las rhino that does not need to mess around with armor upgrades will do.

interceptors are kind of wonky. their squad leader really needs to be packing a psi cannon and i cant quite figure out why they need to spend money to buy that melta.

It made sense back when they were a t1 unit and needed upgrades to transition them into a useful role t2. But they are a t3 fresh purchase now... they have two whole tiers worth of power gating in front of them already.

Not only that but they kind of switched roles from a pure melee disruption unit to a support ranged unit with some melee potential on the side. I almost expect the melta to just come with them with the extra melee prowess being an upgrade. (referring to the disruptive tele / extra melee model that the justicar gives currently)

[Adeptus Noobus]

The Vindicare can deal quite high damage in a short amount of time if you support him correctly which is the GK theme iirc. Units supporting each other with lots of abilities. If you have fielded a Vindicare and a Librarian you could try Mind Blades + Shrouding on the Vindicare and watch what happens.

In my opinion the melta upgrade for the Interceptors is justified simply because they are a teleporting semi-soft-AV unit. Giving them the melta-upgrade out the gate, would be kinda ott imo.

[saltychipmunk]

you don’t need the Libby or the shroud, the fact that the vindi has respectable range as a sniper is plenty to serve as a tank slayer. the mind blades / shroud combo is kind of over kill in my opinion.


Normally i would agree with you about the interceptors however i have ta few concerns with that.

1 They are a t3 unit, unlike most other av snare units ... interceptors have that 300 req 150 power pay wall in-front of them. having all damage type units with exotic abilities is hardly a rarity in t3 at all.

2They are a t3 unit with largely average stats. sure they do damage too all types which is very much novel on a unit equipped with teleporters. but the actual damage values and their general stats are that of comparable t2 /upgraded t1 units without the advantaged of having a possible 3 tiers worth of accumulated experience to draw from. that can mean 2-3 level ups missing. (which could explain why they feel like they hit so soft and feel squishy)


Number 2 is probably a big reason why i find many of the t3 mod units to be weak ( flashgits and kasrkins in particular) the stats look good when you compare them to non leveled counter parts.. but you aren’t fighting non leveled units in t3. I think this is something relic largely side stepped in vanilla by ensuring that most t3 offerings have nothing even remotely comparable to in previous tiers where as a good chunks of the mod units do in a sense. in which case they either perform too good and get nerfed or are kind of so so.

Thinking about it this way it also seems like a decent idea would be to remove levels from all tier 3 units and balance accordingly. I was always under the impression levels were mostly so that earlier tier units could keep up in relevance to later tier units.. but t3 is the last tier.. what are tier 3 units exactly keeping up with?

[Crewfinity]

Thinking about it this way it also seems like a decent idea would be to remove levels from all tier 3 units and balance accordingly. I was always under the impression levels were mostly so that earlier tier units could keep up in relevance to later tier units.. but t3 is the last tier.. what are tier 3 units exactly keeping up with?

I always thought of it more that levels reward you for performing better and getting model kills, not as any sort of catch-up or scaling mechanism. if you aren't getting model kills then you won't be getting levels, so it's tied directly to your performance rather than the length of the game. you can have a T1 unit that's still level 1 by T3 if you aren't getting model kills with it, and conversely you can have a unit that's level 3 or 4 by the end of T1 if you get some juicy kills or squad wipes. so its not to keep up with anything, just to reward good play.

as far as mechanisms to allow units to scale through the tiers, i think that's covered pretty well with squad leaders and upgrades.

[Cyris]

On the subject of GK AV, there are a couple of things going on (1v1 perspective):

In 2.4, with Rhino border-line unplayable in T1 and SS Psy cannon being a very poor AV option, GK's biggest hurdle was transitioning into AV come T2. I found that my best bet against races who could threaten a fast vehicle, or a walker with a ton of health, was to focus T2 purchases on AV options, while upgrades on my T1 units would focus against infantry / other threats. The introduction of INT in T3 solved a lot of late game problems, since GK now had a T3 option besides the admittedly expensive and slow Paladins against vehicles. While they lack a snare and their Justicar is terrible (seriously, do not buy this guy, and leave them in ranged stance 99.9% of the time) they are ultimately teleporting anti-all ranged squad. Use other units to spearhead / disrupt enemy formations, then port the INT in to focus off most infantry and vehicle threats (their single entity damage is their big weakness). Flanking works well too, and don't forget that melta-bombs in the rear deal bonus damage for relic only knows reasons Seriously, these guys are Warp Spiders with psy cannons (again, do NOT get the Justicar!)

Tricky parts of this were that the Rhino is incredibly hard to micro. Since it fires on the move, it's very difficult to get it to hit anything except for an "all in" enemy walker. Even right clicking on the target you want to hit will often fail, since the Rhino will find an infantry squad .00001 meters before the intended target and auto-fire at it, wasting you shot. VA is an AMAZING unit as you practice with it more, though I'm all but resigned to losing it by T3. The impact it makes in the interim elevated it to a near auto-purchase in most matchups despite this "weakness". The infantry bleed and vehicle threat were just amazing, and I'd be very happy to see him nerfed (right after Zoan, natch).

The current 2.5 notes change a lot of this, though it's speculation for now. The big part is that Purg in T1 opens up GK build orders TREMENDOUSLY. They are an incredibly (I'd say OP) good vehicle deterrent. While against a skilled opponent they are not going to full counter a vehicle alone, they can zone enough to give you time to field a 2nd or 3rd AV option, which should work just fine. This puts a lot less pressure on your T2 purchases to be AV, which will open up the builds. I don't see myself getting las-rhino much for the previously mentioned reasons, the changes to it only marginally effect how it playes as an AV option - slightly more spike damage but slower shots which means more time being mad that it miss-fired The net cost decrease will be a boon though, paying 380/75 for it was excessive when compared to any AV unit from other factions, or even in GK (get VA or purgs instead, or save for dread). Again, it is a solid pick against balls deep walkers that are NOT Brightlance Wraithlord/TDread, so it might be my go-to if I expect a quick BC or deff-dread, but VA still seems the better choice.

Also of note is the Pally red cost and retreat removal, which is going to instantly make GK vulnerable to battle tanks again. I suspect INT are going to be the new T3 auto-purchase unless I've got a solid AV composition already (a living VA, 1-2 Purgs and maybe a libby.) Battle tanks poop all over las-rhino, which is another reason I try not to rely on it (poor scaling). HB rhino can often give you the cover you need to get work done with other units, and it's getting BIG buffs next patch - lower cost, reinforce (which I still do not think GK should have) and better timings. Tripple IST builds inc!

Oh, and Ops need to be nerfed a lot more. I'd pay Ravaner prices for the current version of that unit (350/40) in a heartbeat.

[saltychipmunk]

@ int , well if you don’t get justicar then you have to deal with the fact that they have alot less hp .And 3 models of sustained dps is not very threatening so long as someone takes the time to tie them up. where as warpspiders are extremely bursty and can easily get a full burst off before needing to teleport away regardless of how fast someone gets a unit on them.

@VA, i would happily take a reduction in that self damage buff potency if we got a health buff to go with it.

@ ops id probably go with 340 30 , the big issue is how low their req requirement is out of the gate rather than the power cost. unlike raveners they dont have heavy infantry armour and have less hp spread over more units (and even raveners are notoriously brittle as is) ops also lack a native disruption ability which is core to most of those 40+ power unit purchases. This is especially true considering that their disruption is tied to an upgrade. you make them 40 power and it will be increasingly difficult to justify that extra upgrade being a separate purchase.

[Cyris]

@ int , well if you don’t get justicar then you have to deal with the fact that they have alot less hp .And 3 models of sustained dps is not very threatening so long as someone takes the time to tie them up. where as warpspiders are extremely bursty and can easily get a full burst off before needing to teleport away regardless of how fast someone gets a unit on them.

I disagree on pretty much each point there INT have 400 hp per model out of the can, which is plenty durable for a teleporting HI squad. If you are putting INT in a position that they can be tied up, you are doing it wrong. Use teleport and the rest of your army to cover this possability (or even the psych out grenade), I generally try to treat them as sweepers coming in after I've moved my army up. WS and INT have the same burst duration (2s), and their cooldowns are .5 compared to 1, so they have pretty similar burst windows. WS absolutely deal more single target piercing damage, but that's where their weapon advantages end. INT are dealing AOE explosive damage, which will shred swarms of light infantry and tanks alike, deal respectable damage to HI and much more to SHI. The problem with the Justicar is that he solves problems INT don't have, doesn't increase ranged damage meaningfully, and costs 5 pop. The time he does shine is if you have somehow put together a real melee rushdown build, and they spearhead with their Knockdown teleport, though even then I'd prolly keep them in ranged stance!

@VA, i would happily take a reduction in that self damage buff potency if we got a health buff to go with it.

I 100% agree that the damage on the self buff should go down or away. VA's base damage is already high enough! I don't even think a health buff is necessary, maaaaybe just reduce the cost of extended operations.

@ ops id probably go with 340 30 , the big issue is how low their req requirement is out of the gate rather than the power cost. unlike raveners they dont have heavy infantry armour and have less hp spread over more units (and even raveners are notoriously brittle as is) ops also lack a native disruption ability which is core to most of those 40+ power unit purchases. This is especially true considering that their disruption is tied to an upgrade. you make them 40 power and it will be increasingly difficult to justify that extra upgrade being a separate purchase.

This is prolly the 3v3 vs 1v1 thing, but Ravs almost never bleed in my experience. They also have infantry armor, not heavy. With 6.5 speed, 300 health per model and 38 range, it's not too hard to micro so they rarely bleed (this of course changes if you are focusing them on melee). I'd easily put their bleed resistance on par with Ops who have only 140 hp, because stealth + retreat break + smoke more then makes up the difference. Also, with Purgs in T1, I have much less of a need to have Ops be a low Power disruption unit.

[saltychipmunk]

hmm always thought the ravs had heavy inf, no wonder they die so fast in t1.... what the hell do they do with those thick ass armour plates on their backs ? this will probably result in me using them way less in team games now.


ws are also a full tier earlier and are most certainly a unit capable of quickly gaining exp through model kills. so the single target gap often ends up be much larger.

You make a ton of excellent points but again this is a t3 unit. expecting them to be better in many aspects over other similar units (which often appear a tier earlier) is something i expect. But the thing I have issue with .. is that they aren’t THAT much of an improvement. But i will admit the majority of why i think that way is squarely on the weak justicar and the lack of levels that would normally benefit a transitioning damage dealer unit.

those other tele units gain the benefit of having an extra model worth of damage that the INT dont get access too after all. If the WSE came with a sword and pistol I would probably reconsider the dps comparison between the two units.


But the VA needs a hp buff. As pretty much everyone has said here they sort of expect him to be dead by tier three. that is not a fun unit aspect. that just tells me he is too squishy.


I disagree about the prugs, the prugs are counter melee and light infantry blob. But they offer no real disruption. if anything the reintroduction of t1 purges would be a perfect excuse to nerf the damage on ops and give them the implicit stun instead.

If you do that then i would do something like 350 45 , 50 pierce dps , with the implicit stun grenade , then move the retreat smoke to the t2 ops squad leader upgrade. this makes them more of a specialist like the scouts are and discourages spamming them.

If i recall ops were introduced to replace the prugs in the first place so it makes perfect sense that their role should change a little now that the prugs are going back to t1.

[Sturnn]

Guyz, what about looking into this problem from different perspective?
Some time ago introduction of retreat option for GK termies/palladins was fact that they dont have any other way of escape after teleporation. Well, so maybe lets give GK Librarian the same option as SM Lib has - allied units teleport (probably in form of some upgrade in T3). This way we force on GK to make Lib as essencial unit if u want use termies heavly (Lib is very often seen in games so...) and we can take retreat from all GK termies that way.

2nd thing - what about making Paladins just a upgrade for normal GK terminators? (would cost a difference in req/enegry between Palladins and GK termies and ofc 350 red). According to fluff Palladins are just better/more hero like types of GK Termies (like being GK terminator was not enough heroic ). It's just proposition pls dont kill me with HATE ^^

3rd - GK are going to get some T3 eitherway, probobly Dread Knight? Or just simply make Crusader buildable in the base as other LR's.

[saltychipmunk]

Well you can argue that gk has the bro cap and his we are the hammer to facilitate a quicker escape with terminators. that being said it is generally always a bad idea to use the terminator teleport offensively. This holds true even for sm. There is nothing wrong with having a unit that has trouble disengaging once it commits. that is how walkers and relic units work after all. The issue gk had was always the lack of alternative options.


If you think gk has it bad .. what about chaos terminators? Not much of an issue because chaos does have other options instead of purchasing terminators.

I am not a huge fan of forcing a unit on someone. especially a specialist like a libby.

Making paladins an upgrade does not actually solve anything. the main issue with them is how easy it was to get both them and terminators out. That right there means for your suggestion to work we would need to make the base terminator a call in and the paladins an upgrade to that. Otherwise we have the same issue where gk rushes for an easy terminator class unit.