Chaos Space Marine Topic

[Lulgrim]

Combi flamer is just another way to get kited, since you can see it coming easily. Just move infantry out of the way every time he tries

Uh what... You have either discovered how to dodge bolter rounds or completely misunderstood the reason for getting Combi-Flamer.

[Vapor]

Am I the only one sitting here laughing at the fact that someone actually thinks the Chaos Lord is a lackluster hero?

A hero that doesn't scale well into late-game... let's see, how about the Plague Champion? His worship scales poorly, though the nurgle shrines are always good. Ravener Alpha? Have fun trying to fit your Carnifex into a tunnel. Does Catalyst affect damage from abilities? Like Paroxysm from the Doom? I do know that guide increases DA grenade damage. I've always wanted to test Guide on a manticore...

[Kvek]

Castle the Combi-Flamer increases CL's ranged damage so he can pick off models while chasing, the flamer ability is just a little bonus

[Orkfaeller]

Combiflamer has 100% accuracy on the move, right?

[Kvek]

I'm pretty sure that it has.

[Lulgrim]

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... ombiflamer

[Asmon]

Does Catalyst affect damage from abilities? Like Paroxysm from the Doom? I do know that guide increases DA grenade damage. I've always wanted to test Guide on a manticore...

Catalyst should affect damage from abilities, just as Guide does. Only specific coding might deny an ability from having increased damage.

[Kvek]

You can use Catalyst on doom, but it will only increase the damage of the basic attack, paroxysm will still do 2% (tested)

[Castle]

Combi flamer is just another way to get kited, since you can see it coming easily. Just move infantry out of the way every time he tries

Uh what... You have either discovered how to dodge bolter rounds or completely misunderstood the reason for getting Combi-Flamer.

Hmmm. Sorry for confusion? The CL is immobile while using the flamer portion of the upgrade is what I meant. The bolter side is a nice improvement (and yes, fires on the move ), but in scale doesn't work out for it's cost imho.. I admit that it is powerful when used right though

Anyways, yeah he can just fire his bolter to line-support should it be necessary to stand back from melee (upgrade or not) early on until getting him upgrades for beasty-ness in melee later. Thus, good micro is key as always.

I have figured out how to be plenty more effective with the CL, but I still stick with my original thoughts: he does not scale well with other offensive commanders overall and is typically just not dynamic enough to avoid being fired down easily considering his slowness and how awkward he is overall to use..

However, I see now that the CL is in balance via in-balance in most ways, so please take my thoughts more along the lines of 'how could the CL--and DOW2 Elite mulitplayer in general--be more dynamic'. I will try to be more specific in the future. All I ever meant by any of that was suggestions and ideas, as well as constructive feedback concerning his scale to other Offensive heroes.

@Kvek thanks for pointing things out and trying to help man. In time I am sure I will learn more details. At present I have been trying help by reporting as things tend to 'play out' in matches based on many factors. Sometimes I do not post as thoroughly as I could though. I do apologize if you felt I was rude to you. I do counter and support my arguments or statements if I bother to make them, so when someone comes along trying to change what I am saying about game balance into 'this is better than that' I tend to get rather direct about it. Hope we can move on and be chill about things from here...

[Vapor]

Combi flamer is just another way to get kited, since you can see it coming easily. Just move infantry out of the way every time he tries

Uh what... You have either discovered how to dodge bolter rounds or completely misunderstood the reason for getting Combi-Flamer.

Hmmm. Sorry for confusion? The CL is immobile while using the Combi-Flamer....

Ur referring to the immolate ability, the main reason combiflamer is purchased is for the high fotm ranged dps. Tho the anti garrison ability is good

[Castle]

Ur referring to the immolate ability, the main reason combiflamer is purchased is for the high fotm ranged dps. Tho the anti garrison ability is good

yep, just caught that in ma post and corrected it Thanks

[Castle]

Castle, you've written a lot, but you haven't actually said much to support your belief that the Chaos Lord is ineffective. You've mostly just said that he's ineffective, that he doesn't scale well, that other offensive heroes are better, but you don't provide much of anything concrete or specific to support this. You've mostly just listed the weaknesses that characterize any tanky melee hero, but you don't actually explain what makes the FC, or any other similar hero, better.

The Sorcerer is a different beast entirely and I don't think you understand him. The overwhelming majority of this game's heroes fulfill either of the following two functions, with or without wargears:

1) They act as a tanky melee hero.
2) They can act as a source of ranged dps in tier 1.

...

Oh snap!

Thanks for all that post Maestro...albeit rather rude but effective reply.

In my defense you are not all that aware of how I play, or who I play against, in Elite or DOW2 in general. Please keep posts and responses non-personal, nor attacking in nature.

Some of your statements are assuming a lot about my play style with the CL. Rather arrogant no? You and I have played maybe 20 matches together, maybe 3 of which you have seen me play CL...

Some of what you have said is correct in part, considering my lack of knowledge about wargear eg the combi-flamer. I have however tried the thing in builds plenty though, hasn't been that epic man

As for my 'noob issues/complaints' with "kill the weak", well it is what it is and I did not mean to complain. I get it to work for me all the time actually, but mechanically Kill The Weak is what it is when it comes to how the CL scales. Again, it's not as if I did not try the use of all his powers over many many matches, retail or elite. Generally I wait about 40-60 matches at least (all match types too), with about 20 of those 1v1's until I post something up on the forums.

As for the Sorc, well, I have been shut down so hard by the Sorc during matches that even a full army cannot be effective enough to win a round. Sure, I might have an SM army with FC all kitted out and a compliment of termies, Tacs kitted out, fully upgraded Scouts, ASM a Pred etc etc.. I have seen it done and been on the opposite end of good Sorc play., and I have had all that army rendered near useless with the right timing by good sorc players. So long as the Sorc player has some kind of army left by late game, and some AV, it is very hard for an offensive hero to counter a good sorc build.

I did make a few mistakes in my posts in the last few weeks, I got hasty. Sorry for some of that. But I did want to bring attention to the fact that in games between highly skilled players the CL does not tend to keep up. Period. I have seen it for myself playing opposite CL players, and I have seen it in many replays. The CL is a skill of his own to use, sure. That's cool. But I just don't think that his build process etc scales out with other heroes in an offensive role. I feel like I hit dead ends with Chaos easily, especially late game, and the CL in particular has little to no tricks--aside from blinding opponents and stacking dps--to help counter other armies. Again, to scale.

I have certainly found various ways to make good, or even great, use of some of the wargear I brought up before. It all depends on the situation of a match. But I only brought any of that stuff up because I wanted to suggest ideas for balance via dynamic game-play...this is a thread for CSM balance/idea thoughts is it not? I am not saying anyone has to agree, just that these are some thoughts, ideas and concerns looking at many factors of game-play overall. This point in my postings seems entirely lost on you Maestro.

Your statement(s) about the CL's uniqueness are pretty valid, but one could say the Warlock can also provide high ranged dps, while tanking in melee exceptionally well-- and quickly--in T1 if he get's his 'Destructor' ability off successfully.

To finish, I have not been vague at all. Proof of such is right in the fact that you posted a near thread-page-long response to my statements...

Anyway guys, I do apologize for some of the mistakes in posting. However, that is no excuse for some of the poor exchanges that have gone on here... So this is the last I will say about the CL from my point of view. Moving on...

[Kvek]

Oh snap!

Thanks for all that post Maestro...albeit rather rude but effective reply.

In my defense you are not all that aware of how I play, or who I play against, in Elite or DOW2 in general. Please keep posts and responses non-personal, nor attacking in nature.

Some of your statements are assuming a lot about my play style with the CL. Rather arrogant no? You and I have played maybe 20 matches together, maybe 3 of which you have seen me play CL...

Some of what you have said is correct in part, considering my lack of knowledge about wargear eg the combi-flamer. I have however tried the thing in builds plenty though, hasn't been that epic man

As for my 'noob issues/complaints' with "kill the weak", well it is what it is and I did not mean to complain. I get it to work for me all the time actually, but mechanically Kill The Weak is what it is when it comes to how the CL scales. Again, it's not as if I did not try the use of all his powers over many many matches, retail or elite. Generally I wait about 40-60 matches at least (all match types too), with about 20 of those 1v1's until I post something up on the forums.

As for the Sorc, well, I have been shut down so hard by the Sorc during matches that even a full army cannot be effective enough to win a round. Sure, I might have an SM army with FC all kitted out and a compliment of termies, Tacs kitted out, fully upgraded Scouts, ASM a Pred etc etc.. I have seen it done and been on the opposite end of good Sorc play., and I have had all that army rendered near useless with the right timing by good sorc players. So long as the Sorc player has some kind of army left by late game, and some AV, it is very hard for an offensive hero to counter a good sorc build.

I did make a few mistakes in my posts in the last few weeks, I got hasty. Sorry for some of that. But I did want to bring attention to the fact that in games between highly skilled players the CL does not tend to keep up. Period. I have seen it for myself playing opposite CL players, and I have seen it in many replays. The CL is a skill of his own to use, sure. That's cool. But I just don't think that his build process etc scales out with other heroes in an offensive role. I feel like I hit dead ends with Chaos easily, especially late game, and the CL in particular has little to no tricks--aside from blinding opponents and stacking dps--to help counter other armies. Again, to scale.

I have certainly found various ways to make good, or even great, use of some of the wargear I brought up before. It all depends on the situation of a match. But I only brought any of that stuff up because I wanted to suggest ideas for balance via dynamic game-play...this is a thread for CSM balance/idea thoughts is it not? I am not saying anyone has to agree, just that these are some thoughts, ideas and concerns looking at many factors of game-play overall. This point in my postings seems entirely lost on you Maestro.

Your statement(s) about the CL's uniqueness are pretty valid, but one could say the Warlock can also provide high ranged dps, while tanking in melee exceptionally well-- and quickly--in T1 if he get's his 'Destructor' ability off successfully.

To finish, I have not been vague at all. Proof of such is right in the fact that you posted a near thread-page-long response to my statements...

Anyway guys, I do apologize for some of the mistakes in posting. However, that is no excuse for some of the poor exchanges that have gone on here... So this is the last I will say about the CL from my point of view. Moving on...

Combi Flamer is good always, if it wasn't that epic, You obviously didn't use it in a 1v1.

Shut down by sorc, were you using CL ? If yes no offense, but i have to laugh.

CL scales incredibly well.

Don't compare commanders.

"highly skilled players" Like ? Name one please.

Again you are defending yourself, poor exchanges ? You are just bullshitting here, while everybody here disagrees with you.

[Dark Riku]

But I did want to bring attention to the fact that in games between highly skilled players the CL does not tend to keep up. Period.

NO. This is not a fact at all. PERIOD.

You may believe whatever you want.
But the Chaos lord does scale as well as the other heroes do.

About the combiflamer:
This basically makes the CL also a ranged hero.
You have to engage him when he has this upgrade.
You can't kite him because of the high ranged dps this wargear gives him.
Or even hide in a building with the ability he gets.

[Nurland]

To finish, I have not been vague at all. Proof of such is right in the fact that you posted a near thread-page-long response to my statements...

Castle: Uhhh... How is that exactly a proof of you not being vague? Just because someone can write a long post in response does not mean you have been clear. It might even mean quite the opposite depending on how look at it... At least based on what I've read you have been pretty vague by being unable to provide solid facts/numbers and examples to back up your arguments.

And regarding the conversation here I am a Chaos Lord main. Been playing mostly CL for over 1,5 years now and I really can't agree with the stuff you have been saying here considering CL. Ofc you are entitled to your opinion etc. but it might be worth reconsidering it since it seems no one is agreeing with you.

[Arbit]

Castle, I think what you're running up against is

1. Historically, the CL has been a very popular commander choice in retail. Out of necessity, most long-time players have had a lot of experience honing their anti-CL play.
2. A lot of the high profile/top level chaos players are playing sorc right now, and the community in general seems to prefer playing the sorc in general. Just based on watching replays and my own 2v2/3v3 games, it's like 50% sorc, 35% PC, and 15% CL. I don't think this is because the CL is underpowered. I think it's just a trend that's been popularized initially by Chaos Librarian and currently by Noisy.

Finally... I don't know how to say this without sounding like a dick... but the few 3v3s I've played against you, it seems like you're using worship to shoot your CL too far ahead of your army, and your CL gets kited around and forced off before your army can help. Maybe try playing a little more conservatively with him. I am certainly no chaos pro nor a top level player by any means, so take this paragraph with a grain of salt.

[Maestro Cretella]

Castle, if you're going to pull the "I'm done here," card I'm going to tell you what most of the people here are probably thinking but don't want to say: this just looks like you losing with the Chaos Lord and then blaming the balance of the game.

When you say the Chaos Lord is ineffective, it translates into you not using him effectively. When you say the Chaos Lord gets shut down, it translates into you getting shut down. It especially looks this way because of how vague your comments are and because of gaps you have revealed in your knowledge regarding this hero.

Here's how to not be vague: one specific gap you revealed is that you didn't understand the purpose of the combi-flamer. The combi-flamer isn't purchased because of the ability. It's purchased because it gives the Chaos Lord ranged dps (31.61 piercing) that is better than the WSE (24 piercing) and Mekboy (20 piercing), and almost as good as the Kommando Nob (34 piercing). Offensive heroes like the Force Commander and the Commissar Lord can't achieve this kind of ranged dps. This has been a known strength of the Chaos Lord for years.

As for the Sorc, well, I have been shut down so hard by the Sorc during matches that even a full army cannot be effective enough to win a round. Sure, I might have an SM army with FC all kitted out and a compliment of termies, Tacs kitted out, fully upgraded Scouts, ASM a Pred etc etc.. I have seen it done and been on the opposite end of good Sorc play., and I have had all that army rendered near useless with the right timing by good sorc players. So long as the Sorc player has some kind of army left by late game, and some AV, it is very hard for an offensive hero to counter a good sorc build.

You are out of touch with how the Sorcerer is actually played. Citing a match up that is severely in the Force Commander's favor isn't helping your case. You're being vague here. What specifically is rendering your army useless? What is actually shutting you down? What units and wargears make a good Sorcerer build? Why specifically would an offensive hero have trouble countering a Sorc build? Do you realize that offensive heroes are actually the Sorcerer's single greatest weakness? Do you know why?

To finish, I have not been vague at all. Proof of such is right in the fact that you posted a near thread-page-long response to ...

I have posted long responses because you have made vague posts that have been very large. I will personally prove that you have been vague.

After having played the Chaos Lord for sometime I have found he is quite boring and largely ineffective overall, compared to other offensive commanders. He is very slow, he can kinda tank but cannot tele like the GK commander, nor apply as much useful wargear as the Force Commander. Nor do the damage the Warlock or Commissar can upfront. Yet also lacks the option(s) to trick or weaken others as effectively overall. I like the Doom Maul but besides the stun to infantry--if you can ever get a chance to land it--the maul is a let down. I have tried builds outside of the typical 'Dark Halo, Inferno Armor, Lightening Claws' build and they all just cannot keep up.

The only specific you've really offered here is the fact that the Brother Captain can teleport, while the Chaos Lord cannot. Now here's where you're being vague. What are these so-called useful wargears that the Force Commander has, and what makes the Chaos Lord's wargears not useful by comparison? How can he "kinda" tank when he has an above-average health pool even among tanky commanders, an energy shield wargear, a health-regeneration wargear and an energy regeneration wargear? What are the Commissar and Warlock using specifically to do more damage than the Chaos Lord upfront (already proven to be incorrect)? Aside from teleport, what specific options does the Chaos Lord lack that the other heroes have?

But even still, it is so easy for experienced players to dodge Kill The Weak that he just can't match up with other heroes and other builds overall, even late game; add to any of this the issue of Chaos units being immobilized for key upgrades and front-line marines (CSM) being weak to power weapons and less capable than Tacs in melee, makes for a complicated issue to solve. Even when Kill The Weak succeeds, the CL is still easily fired down on and now takes damage rather easily from many sources. I know he is OP in retail...but there is a reason for that. And in time you can easily dispatch him even in retail if you know what you are doing.

Healing by melee damage taken, instead of given, just doesn't work out IMHO. Too easy for players to peel of melee and just fire him down once they realize he is healing from melee hits, then come back in for the kill...

How does being able to dodge Kill the Weak mean that the Chaos Lord can't match up to other heroes and builds? What are these heroes and builds specifically? How is the Chaos Lord any more easily fired down on than any other offensive hero, especially when many of those heroes have smaller health and energy pools, and/or no options for regenerating on hits? What are you even talking about when you say "healing by melee damage taken"? Kill the Weak is a fixed 75 hp back to the CL per model hit. Icon of Khorne is 1% of the CL's max hp back per hit. Harness of is a fixed 5 energy back per hit.

hypothetical: imagine CL charging a well setup line in T2, with a compliment of good build order coming with him:

opposing enemy:
ctrl+a, target all units on CL: he drops or is chased off quickly. Multiply that by another teammate coming in...etc. etc.

This is a biased, intentionally stacked hypothetical that essentially just says the CL will lose when he's shot at by an entire army. Where are the specifics? What units are included in this "well setup" line? What support does the CL have? Why is this line not being jumped by Raptors, disrupted by Let the Galaxy Burn or being at havocs, CSM or blastmaster noise marines?

Can he wreak havoc and be a boss in such circumstances? Oh yeah. Especially when all goes right, but in comparison to other offensive commanders he does not scale imho.

HOW? How does he not scale in comparison to other offensive commanders when he does more damage in melee, effectively making him a better squad and model killer, than those other commanders? How does he get kited any more easily than other speed 4.5 commanders, and how does he get kited any more easily when he becomes the only speed 6.5 offensive commander under heretic worship? He does he tank any worse when he has an energy shield, one of the largest health pools? How can he be controlled any more easily, when he is immune to suppression and knockdown, whereas several other offensive commander are not?

The claws do not regen him fast enough too. They are great, but I have yet to see the CL hold up in a real melee fight now, even with regen on melee attack. He's a bully to some units sure, but generally even fully equipped he just get's his ass kicked.

How are the claws not regenerating fast enough? How is this a disadvantage when most other heroes don't have the option to regenerate at all from attacking? What melee fights is the CL not holding up in when he is a tanky single entity with two disruption abilities while wielding an upgraded weapon? I have cast a game where an upgraded CL held off entire armies that consisted mainly of melee units.

I could go on but I'm running out of stamina. I have forgone tact here in favor of brutal honesty, because I think some of the people here are afraid of being that direct. This is more about your weaknesses as a player than the CL's weaknesses.

[Dark Riku]

^ What Cretella said.

[Raffa]

What Riku said

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

As ^, ^^ and ^^^ said.

The Chaos Lord's wargear IMHO is awesome and balanced, with the following three exceptions.

- The Consume Life ability needs a little rework, because underperforms in ELITE after the duration reduce. The two other armor overshadows the Mantle of Hate. Maybe the ability should have again the retail's duration but with a damage taken reduction buff like the Farseer's Gravity Blade ability.

- Daemonic Visage needs a little energy reduction cost.

- Icon of Khorne needs a little rework. It synergies well with the Lighting Claws, but it's overshadowed by the Claws/Harness of Rage/Iron Halo combo.

A damage/speed buff is discarded, for the Chaos Lord design. Maybe a Kill the Weak! radius increase or a 50% health increase with his healing abilities (Kill the weak!, Consume Life, Icon of Khorne heal)

[Nurland]

IoK already got buffed in the beta iirc.

- Icon of Khorne needs a little rework. It synergies well with the Lighting Claws, but it's overshadowed by the Claws/Harness of Rage/Iron Halo combo.

Well of course it is worse for tanking. I mean the other is a combination of an armor and an accessory and costs 50 or so power as IoK is only accessory and costs like 25 powah. The thing is it doesn't need an armor so you can have ltgb or drain lul in addition to tankiness and be able to use other abilities apart from lul halo more freely due to IoK not draining energy.

[Torpid]

IoK already got buffed in the beta iirc.

- Icon of Khorne needs a little rework. It synergies well with the Lighting Claws, but it's overshadowed by the Claws/Harness of Rage/Iron Halo combo.

Well of course it is worse for tanking. I mean the other is a combination of an armor and an accessory and costs 50 or so power as IoK is only accessory and costs like 25 powah. The thing is it doesn't need an armor so you can have ltgb or drain lul in addition to tankiness and be able to use other abilities apart from lul halo more freely due to IoK not draining energy.

However, even when not going for full tankiness with the mantle of hate, the visage is undoubtedly the better choice in ALL scenarios. Look at it this way: The visage decreases the damage that everything around the chaos lord does by 25%, the IoK buffs the health of the chaos lord by, about 15% let's say? (15 swipes, which is probably optimistic). The IOK isn't as potent AND it only buffs the health of the chaos lord, the visage has a stronger effect and the effect buffs all the units health around the chaos lord.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

However, even when not going for full tankiness with the mantle of hate, the visage is undoubtedly the better choice in ALL scenarios. Look at it this way: The visage decreases the damage that everything around the chaos lord does by 25%, the IoK buffs the health of the chaos lord by, about 15% let's say? (15 swipes, which is probably optimistic). The IOK isn't as potent AND it only buffs the health of the chaos lord, the visage has a stronger effect and the effect buffs all the units health around the chaos lord.

AFAIK, the damage reduction is 15%, not 25%.

Still is more potent than IoK, because Daemonic Visage affects more than one squad if they are enough closer to the Chaos Lord.

Nurland, the "trick" of the Claws + Harness + Dark halo is provide to the Chaos Lord two HP pools: one with the energy pool, which recharges very quickly with the melee hits and the HP pool, which thanks to the increased 2.5 hp/s which gives the Harness of rage the Chaos Lord could recover some losed HP when the Dark Halo is up.

I suppose you can create a mixed build with Claws + Inferno/Hate + IoK, but it could be in no man's land, because they have disruption and tankiness, but with reduced effectivity.

[Ace of Swords]

Icon of khrone is supposed to intensify the CL's anti melee capabilities, you will still be able to Kill the weak twice even against ogyns/nobs thanks to it, dark halo just happens to synergize well with the harness and is usually used to tank more ranged fire while regening abit of energy in the few hits you get, but ofc, you won't be able to use kill the weak.

That said, I think, the daemonic visage is 15% passive and then it adds some more damage reduction when the CL hits something in melee, they are both good and situational, and by no means the harness or rage+halo is always a viable choice or the best choice, generally vs nids/orks/eldar/ig you want LTGB and in a very few cases mantle of hate.

[Nurland]

Mantle of Hate is imo generally not really that good since it the ability lasts such a short period of time. It is not useless but gets overshadowed a bit by the other two armors.

Nikhel: Yes I do know how the bubble Choas Lawd works. The 2,5 health regen is nice but it really doesn't matter in battle (outside of battle it is very nice) since the halo won't last that long under focus fire or if there is an energy drain in the field (mwb, apo/tm axe, doom). And with the two hp pools there isn't that much energy for the abilities. That being said, it still is my preferred build if I don't go for ltgb.

And I think that Visage is only 15% dmg reduction with no increases when he hits something in melee and I do favor it over IoK generally... Actually I can't remember the last time I actually bought IoK. However now with the IoK buff I might just give it a go.

[Kvek]

Visage is like a weaker trophy rack.

[Asmon]

Thanks for this critical remark kvek.

[Tex]

Well he is right, visage is pretty horrible for its cost. I find IoK to be ok-ish now that it is 1.5%. I can use it in a lot of different situations which is cool, but it is still something on the edge of niche.

Mantle of hate is still badass. Dunno why you think it isn't. Just run past your enemy and then use it... 3 seconds of stun and then throws them into your troops for a good distance.

[Ace of Swords]

I often get the visage, it's good really, chaos has a good resistence and high dps, that damage reduction is enough to have a huge impact, for mantle of hate, i guess people are still struck with the old lolololol use on hero and rape with melee, but in reality mantle of hate can be used on crucial units, like your AC tics are engaging the ASM, you use the ability on the ASM sarge and they won't be able to use the merciless strike for a good 6 seconds or so (3 sec stun + time ot get back up + time to get back in position).