Unbalanced or I am mistaken in anyway?

[bibotot]

Chaos Terminators with Lightning Claws cost 620/170.

Loyalist Terminators with Lightning Claws cost 720/170.

Both are exactly the same except Chaos Terminators have 1.25 health regen, compared to 0.5 of Loyalist Terminators.

Why? How can a cheaper unit available to all commanders be outright more powerful than a more expensive, FC exclusive unit like that?

[Kvn]

Not too knowledgable about the details of playing Chaos or SM myself, but I believe the asymmetry is due to the compositional differences between the two races. Even though both units are almost identical in terms of their base function, they compliment two different armies, and serve different purposes.

Afraid I can't go into much more detail than that seeing as I don't play much of the power armor factions.

[saltychipmunk]

This is an easy question because assult terminators have access to thunder hammers which claws are an optional sidegrade too. They don't need claws to be good in melee. The chaos terms do. So you can argue the ass terms can be cheaper if they don't need the claws

[egewithin]

Because Loyal ones can have way more support and became more powerful then them. Also, Thunder Hammers.

[bibotot]

This is an easy question because assult terminators have access to thunder hammers which claws are an optional sidegrade too. They don't need claws to be good in melee. The chaos terms do. So you can argue the ass terms can be cheaper if they don't need the claws

Chaos Terminators are more versatile and can be upgraded to either the Autocannon or the Lightning Claws. This makes them capable of dealing with more situations. Assault Terminators can never have any range weapon, so they HAVE to be THE BEST in melee, because there is no other way to play them. If you bought Assault Terminators and the opponent's composition is unfavorable to melee assault, then too bad.

It's like Chaos Space Marines and Tactical Space Marines. Chaos ones with upgrades are more powerful, but very specialized. The Tactical Space Marines are more flexible and can be helpful in more situations, but are weaker when fighting directly against CSM with same cost upgrades.

Plus, the Assault Terminators are only available for the Force Commander. They need to be powerful that it takes up a slot in global abilities chart. Otherwise just give every SM commander the option of fielding them, just like what happened to Seer Council.

Now, it's not that I as an IG player is afraid of Lightning Claws in anyway, the Autocannon being more effective against my army, but I am worried when a Space Marine player fights a Chaos player, starts doing the math and finds he is rigged if he purchases Assault Terminators and his opponent also gives his Chaos Terminators Lightning Claws.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Chaos Terminators are more versatile and can be upgraded to either the Autocannon or the Lightning Claws. This makes them capable of dealing with more situations. Assault Terminators can never have any range weapon, so they HAVE to be THE BEST in melee, because there is no other way to play them. If you bought Assault Terminators and the opponent's composition is unfavorable to melee assault, then too bad.

Well it is upon you then to make the right choice regarding which Terminators you want to purchase. That is not really a balancing issue.
Assault Terminators have more health (5400 vs 3750 hp) and melee resistance out of the gate. They ARE the better fighters right out of the gate.

It's like Chaos Space Marines and Tactical Space Marines. Chaos ones with upgrades are more powerful, but very specialized. The Tactical Space Marines are more flexible and can be helpful in more situations, but are weaker when fighting directly against CSM with same cost upgrades.

Nope.
Plasma Guns: 46.32 dps
Inferno Bolts: 18.15 dps

TCSM have higher burst durations maybe but Plasma Guns definitely deal more damage and Tactical Marines also have access to Kraken Bolts, which boosts their damage by another 20% and "And they shall know no fear" which reduces incoming damage by 40%.

Plus, the Assault Terminators are only available for the Force Commander. They need to be powerful that it takes up a slot in global abilities chart. Otherwise just give every SM commander the option of fielding them, just like what happened to Seer Council.

The other heroes definitely have their tools to deal with Chaos Terminators. Just think about the Plasma Gun and the Signum armor on the Techmarine alone.

[Indrid]

Not sure where you got those numbers from. Tac plasma guns are ~30 dps. The squad only gets one, with the others have piercing damage which HI is resistant to. Pretty common knowledge that TCSM will wreck them I think.

As for the topic, Kvn said it. A case could be made for ATs being available to all SM commanders but that would need very careful consideration.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Not sure where you got those numbers from. Tac plasma guns are ~30 dps.

The Codex.....Let's not forget that CSM are HI....

[Indrid]

Which says ~30 dps. Wut Codex you looking at?

EDIT: Oh, you're listing HI damage for the plasma guns but not for the Inferno bolters for whatever reason. It would be ~22 dps for them.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Which says ~30 dps. Wut Codex you looking at?

EDIT: Oh, you're listing HI damage for the plasma guns but not for the Inferno bolters for whatever reason. It would be ~22 dps for them.

What's with the hostility. Honest mistake here....

[Indrid]

There was nothing even slightly hostile about my post. Wut ya talkin' 'bout? Was just expressing confusion.

EDIT: For those curious about the numbers - TCSM would be doing ~109 DPS to the Tacs fully upgraded. Tacs would be doing ~76 DPS to the TCSM with Plasma + Sergeant. ~92 DPS with Kraken active. If the Tacs had ATSKNF available they would probably win, assuming the plasma gun hits its relatively slow shots (80% chance) regularly. Could of course just force melee too.

[Adeptus Noobus]

There was nothing even slightly hostile about my post. Wut ya talkin' 'bout? Was just expressing confusion.

EDIT: For those curious about the numbers - TCSM would be doing ~109 DPS to the Tacs fully upgraded. Tacs would be doing ~76 DPS to the TCSM with Plasma + Sergeant. ~92 DPS with Kraken active. If the Tacs had ATSKNF available they would probably win, assuming the plasma gun hits its relatively slow shots (80% chance) regularly. Could of course just force melee too.

I stand corrected. Thank you for clearing that up. I was always under the impression Tacs with Plasma Guns would win.

But regarding the original post: It boils down to what Salty, Indrid and I said.

[Black Relic]

It it what everyone has said so far. as to Chaos Terminators complement a different race and have every right to have a portable ranged AV option since chaos doesn't really have one other than raptors. . But also I want you to keep this in mind. Since elite mod for the emperor can be used on Assault Terminators, that's an 25% damage boost of the bat. pretty big, and you have the FC along with them who can use battle cry for a 10% damage as od activation which the damage increase by another 10% per special attack.

So off the bat you AT do 35% more melee damage. Those buffs also increases the splash damage those terminators do.

IMO the best way to play FC is though inspiration. Make your AT have a automatic 25% damage buff from sacred standard, add 10% from battle cry (with no extra special attacks) and For the Emperor global. That's a 60% damage buff on your Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws. Honestly you dont even have to do that on A. Throw these buffs on sternguard and laugh at every hero in the game. Put this on Tacs with their plasma guns and what even TCSM melt (caz thats 80% (kraken bolts) more damage vs HI plus the plasma damage modifier towards HI)

So since you are the FC to begin with if you want Assault Terminators you can already buff them easily. The only hero the can do something similar is the Chaos Lord with bloodlust.

Sometimes I throw this on Snipers and what the previous version of the Scouts snipers come back to life for a few seconds.

But I do want some changes for the FC. Not going to Lie about that. One wargear in particular is the power sword. But that's a different discussion.

[Nurland]

Plasma Tacs vs TCSM favors TCSM if they have EW afaik. It is fairly close since Tacs over half the dps in the single model. Due to that they tend to take models fairly quick despite their lower dps and their damage fall off when dropping models is way smaller than TCSM.

Back to Terminators. I think Caeltos made CTerms less req intensive due to Chaos eco. CTerm reinforce is 100/50 where loyalist Terms are 125/25 iirc.

Chaos economy tends to be more requisition deprived. Hence the smaller req costs.

[Ace of Swords]

Chaos bleeds more overall, so if you were to see the total stats of req spent by both factions at the same time it would be roughly the same despite chaos units being generally cheaper than their counterparts, although I'm afraid that won't be true anymore next patch.

[Nurland]

Not sure about 190 req tics. They lose a significant portion of the melee damage but a lot of their damage is in doomblast. I feel melee tics will be overall nerfed in their vanilla state.

It is a buff for GL tics but need to see how the melee heretic thing plays out.

[Ace of Swords]

Not sure about 190 req tics. They lose a significant portion of the melee damage but a lot of their damage is in doomblast. I feel melee tics will be overall nerfed in their vanilla state.

It is a buff for GL tics but need to see how the melee heretic thing plays out.

It is, it's gonna make them stronger early game and more irrelevant late game, unless you use them for worship/capping/repair only but it still overall boosts chaos economy greatly.

[saltychipmunk]

Not sure about 190 req tics. They lose a significant portion of the melee damage but a lot of their damage is in doomblast. I feel melee tics will be overall nerfed in their vanilla state.

It is a buff for GL tics but need to see how the melee heretic thing plays out.

It is, it's gonna make them stronger early game and more irrelevant late game, unless you use them for worship/capping/repair only but it still overall boosts chaos economy greatly.

Which basically sounds like a full on buff, rather than a real trade off since heretics are naturally used less and less as front line melee or even first pick counter initiation as the game progresses.

All in all it just makes them more forgiving to replace when they bleed which I cant fathom a reason for.. bleeding heretics via full squad kills or numerous model kills is supposed to be their deliberate Achilles heel in early game.

[Nurland]

I would say their late game performance is what is better since there they will lose more models and doomblast + repair/worship is anyway pretty much all they do + repurchase is cheaper.

Early game they are less capable of soloing stuff and early game is where the melee damage fall off makes a bigger impact since Tics tend to stay longer in combats. Also I would imagine Tics bleeding more models since they will become less potent in melee combat.

Also since melee Tics will be less capable of soloing stuff it may have a negative impact on map control.

That is the reasoning behind my point of view.

[Broodwich]

my only problem with the two is that chaos lc terms still have their on kill debuff while sm lose it

[Nurland]

Don't SM LC Terms have inspiration? O_o

[Ace of Swords]

Don't SM LC Terms have inspiration? O_o

They do, he's probably mistaking inspiration with the HP regen wich Hammer termies have, but lose when they upgrade to LCs.

[Broodwich]

No they don't.

Either that, or they are missing the inspire fx. Units don't have on kill effects, weapons do. This hasn't been shown since I can't even remember the website, but it looked like the hq-coh.com page and was very well done. This was back in the chaos rising era, and every wiki since has seemed lackluster as it doesn't explain or list everything. The codex is pretty good, but still doesn't have stuff like scatter or aoe charts in there

Feel free to correct me, but do it with actual stats