Guardsmen weapon switch option?

[egewithin]

We used to discuss about Guardsmens flamer upgrade here. Everone agreed that flamers are fine but no one goes for them since you are going to loose your long range anti-armor option. GK Strike Squad has the option to buy their flamer in T1, and switch to psycannon in T2 and everyone is okay with that right? What if we give this upgrade to Guardsmen too?

[Thunderhost]

I find that the upgrade-change option is part of the SM factions integral strenght and not something that should be available to everyone. I agree that flamer GM are underused atm, but they do see use. Maybe another way of working around this, if it needs to be addressed at all?

[Nerdhero]

I would guess the reason guardsmen can't switch weapons is because flamer guards cost less requisition in total so they are less flexible in return. Besides, changing from flamers to plasma gun isn't as important as tacs changing from flamers to rockets anyway.

[Dark Riku]

No, some reasons already above.

[Crewfinity]

its an SM trait to be able to be flexible and switch weapons.
IG are more about the dirt cheap reinforce costs and attrition battling. letting them switch weapons too would be OP

[Atlas]

Wait, Strikes can swap weapons?

[egewithin]

Wait, Strikes can swap weapons?

Yes.

[Oddnerd]

I never deliberately send my GM squads to their death, but whenever my flamer squads dies in T2-T3 I'm never that upset because it's nice to not be stuck with an obsolete unit.

I'd love to see the option as well, but unless you can make it seem beneficial to the Astartes factions I don't expect it will happen.

I find that the upgrade-change option is part of the SM factions integral strenght and not something that should be available to everyone

Scouts, devs, and terminators can't weapon swap as far as I know <:^)

[Sub_Zero]

Yes, people should stop mentioning the upgrade-change option as a strength of space marines. It is non-existent. You always pay the full cost and you have only one flexible unit. GK appear to have one as well. Something unique about SM? Not quite...

Regarding guardsmen, I think that would be great if guardsmen had only 2 flamers instead of 3 and an ability that would switch off the flamers. The reasoning behind this is that whenever you need your guardsmen not to go closer, you activate the ability and the guys with flamers hold their fire, allowing other models to engage from normal range. And 3 flamers instead of 2 allow for better focus fire and overall makes it easier because sometimes models with flamers cannot fire properly. These changes would improve their effectiveness in combat.

P. S. The same kind of ability is also useful on any other ranged squad with a weapon that has a shorter range. Not always you want to use that weapon. Such an option would be amazing for good players.

[Nurland]

That strength is not insignificant though... Mostly since getting flamers for your core unit does not lock you out of other weapon options.

[Thunderhost]

@ Oddnerd Are we discussing semantics or gamebalance
@ Hydra Erm.. Grey Knights are a subfaction of the Space Marine roster, so yes, quite.

[DandyFrontline]

I wish GM could switch between normal lasguns and bayonets

[Oddnerd]

@ Oddnerd Are we discussing semantics or gamebalance
@ Hydra Erm.. Grey Knights are a subfaction of the Space Marine roster, so yes, quite.

Well, my point is that it isn't really a core strength of the SM factions, it is something very special only given to Tactical marines and their GK equivalents. Most low-tier core units in the game have upgrades that come with no significant trade-offs so are not worth worrying about (shootas/sluggas/gaunts/gants/dire avengers/banshees), and most other units like specialists (cultists/ISTs/STs/warriors) and suppression teams require you to consider the trade-offs of the upgrade. Tactical marines and strike squads get this unique flexibility because they are a core unit and and it isn't fair to punish early game pressure play by leaving a faction with a mostly obsolete core unit for the remainder of the game.

How do GM squads not fit into this niche themselves? They are the ultimate bread-and-butter unit in this game and are faced with the same T1 equipment trade-off as a tactical marine squad. I'm not saying that flamers are utterly useless in later tiers, but they are so poor in open combat and so short-ranged that you are effectively turning your staple combat unit into a specialist.

[Lesten]

Yes, people should stop mentioning the upgrade-change option as a strength of space marines. It is non-existent.

What? It's a huge strength even if you have to pay for it! Being able to burn down gens in T1 and then get a soft or semi-hard (giggity) counter to heavy infantry or vehicles in T2 on a potentially already leveled squad without having to get a whole new unit, AND then switch again to counter something else is nothing short of fantastic. Especially on such a durable squad. It's also pretty cheap compared to what all other factions have to pay to get a new unit to do the same job.

I think it's pretty cool that this is a perk only tactical marines have, it suits them well. I'm not too familiar with IG, but I feel it would be too strong on guardsmen. And I don't really see the problem, if you've purchased flamers you have to play their strength. Flamer guardsmen can still be used to repair, fight enemy squads at close range, cap, burn down structures and bash gens. If you bash a couple of gens you'll have set your opponent back a lot more than what you paid for the flamers.

[Dark Riku]

@ Hydra Erm.. Grey Knights are a subfaction of the Space Marine roster, so yes, quite.

Gk's are their own race... Would you call them a subfaction of Eldar if they placed them under Eldar for UI purposes??

What? It's a huge strength even if you have to pay for it! Being able to burn down gens in T1 and then get a soft or semi-hard (giggity) counter to heavy infantry or vehicles in T2 on a potentially already leveled squad without having to get a whole new unit, AND then switch again to counter something else is nothing short of fantastic. Especially on such a durable squad. It's also pretty cheap compared to what all other factions have to pay to get a new unit to do the same job.

You highly underestimate the cost of switching between the weapon upgrades.
Tacs aren't extremely durable either, expacially come T2 when the weapon switching might occur.
Other factions don't pay to do the same job either, they pay to get the job done better!

... if you've purchased flamers you have to play their strength. Flamer guardsmen can still be used to repair, fight enemy squads at close range, cap, burn down structures and bash gens. If you bash a couple of gens you'll have set your opponent back a lot more than what you paid for the flamers.

Also this ^

[Black Relic]

Did you really just say ONE flexible unit??

How are assault marines that are able to help damage and setup tank kills not flexible? And they can also stun units in a building. And they have the amazing merciless strike for extra kb on demand. This in all on an initiating unit.

Scouts can expand on their anti-melee capabilities by getting shotguns. OR you can get sniper rifle if you want them to do damage at long ranges. If you need them infiltrate and scouts enemy positions or get a sneaky nade off they can do that. Coupled with an ASM stun nade and scout grenade is a huge threat to units in a building. How is this not flexible? But I won't stop here.

The Devastators. They have the option of choosing between hard AV or soft AV in the form of vengeance rounds. Why are vengeance rounds so good? The Dev keeps is heavy bolter so you retain that control but now you also have soft AV that does more damage the closer that vehicle is to the Devs. Try an path block a DD without his upgrade and you will take it out with vengeance rounds. Not to mention if you are able to set up your devs in the retreat path of your enemy and activate Vengeance rounds as they pass through it. Ridiculous retreat kill potential.

The Dreadnought. You have an anti melee dread to start as you know. If you choose to, you can get the Assault cannon for anti infantry and some kb. Now you have the multi-melta so he can contest tanks if you melta bomb a tank, plus that multi-melta nearly one shots every infantry model in the game so you get guaranteed bleed.

Your razorback. Although it doesn't have any weapon options, that smoke grenade turns that somewhat fragile transport into a freakin tank. The Razorback will b able to tank Hard AV shot for a while so your army still has a reinforcement point and can do their jobs with a bit more peace of mind. Not to mention the slow Space Marine Race now has a quick transport.

Libby. Ill make is simple. Your Hard AV devs have no need to set up. Quick on demand suppression and soft AV potential that can quickly turn into "Hard" AV by getting closer without setting up. Missile Launcher Tacs being able to chase transports of Tanks. Your ASM can get retreat kills. Your terminators cannot be kited so easily. Your get of of jail free card via Gate of Infinatry. HIs (almost) "get out of jail" free card via quicking. His anti-push ability via force barrier. Use that shit when your enemy just started a push can instantly make your enemies tank over extend since it no longer has support.

Your ranged terminators. Your get a flexible choice. Do you want Anti blob/AV in the form of cyclone missile launcher? Do you want to suppress infantry (after shooting for what feels like ages)? You want anti-gens? Heavy Flamer.

Sternguards get an ammo type for every situation for no cost. NOt totally sure but if they get a ammo type for every situation, wouldn't that make them flexible?

Some weapon choices may be permanent but each one work together and are immediate counters to your enemies purchases without getting another squad. Tac complete this by being a specialist unit that is flexible. With a cost, as are any other of the weapon options. You pay for them. But it's better than getting another squad to fill that role. Which is why sterns a flippin' fantastic since they get to be flexible for no cost.

PS Vanguards can get a power fist. With apothecaries angels of death they will kill a fire prism when under veil of time.

[Lesten]

You highly underestimate the cost of switching between the weapon upgrades. Tacs aren't extremely durable either, expacially come T2 when the weapon switching might occur.
Other factions don't pay to do the same job either, they pay to get the job done better!

Well, more durable than most other T1 units. And I merely meant that switching out your tacs' weapon is faster and relatively cheap compared to getting a new unit out. I don't think it's too strong an ability for tactical marines though, they're build around having it after all, but it might be too strong for guardsmen.

Point is, if any unit would get the option to switch out their upgrades (even if they have to pay for it again) it would definitely be a buff... and a pretty good one in my book.

[Dark Riku]

Sternguards get an ammo type for every situation for no cost.

625/55 "no cost" I don't even get sterns any more, every time I get them I regret it, waste of resources and pop.

[Black Relic]

Well getting the squad is going to cost. I was trying to point out that they can switch between ammo type for no cost other than time. If I am able i get sterns if i have another tacs unless i am vs eldar, orks or IG caz the hellfire is hard to pass up.

[Sturnn]

Still unit for 210 req should not have the same option to switch weapons as T2 unit which costs almost like Terminators.

[Thunderhost]

@ Hydra Erm.. Grey Knights are a subfaction of the Space Marine roster, so yes, quite.

Gk's are their own race... Would you call them a subfaction of Eldar if they placed them under Eldar for UI purposes??

No I wouldn't, and that's not my point either. My point is that their mechanics bear a resemblance to the race they were spawned from, i.e SM. This game is highly based on fluff, and fluffwise, they're SM.
I do see your point, as I am sure you see mine, even if you don't agree

[Dark Riku]

No I wouldn't, and that's not my point either. My point is that their mechanics bear a resemblance to the race they were spawned from, i.e SM. This game is highly based on fluff, and fluffwise, they're SM.
I do see your point, as I am sure you see mine, even if you don't agree

No, I don't see your point at all. SM's and GK's are a completely different things in this game.
I can't describe your argument other than complete and utter bullshit.

[Thunderhost]

I can't describe your argument other than complete and utter bullshit.[/quote]
Very novel.

[Dark Riku]

In fluff:
Are Grey Knights Space Marines? Yes.
Are Space Marines Grey Knights? Some.

in game:
Are Grey Knights Space Marines? No.
Are Space Marines Grey Knights? No.

Do other races' equivalents have the weapon swap option? No.
Chaos Space Marines come to mind as well as a "SM spawned faction" you know, in fluff they once where normal loyal Space Marines.

[Nurland]

Lets stick to the GM side of things shallwe?

[Asmon]

Considering their low cost, low upkeep and reinforcement cost, getting one flamer GM squad exclusively for powerbashing is relevant. Hence there is no issue here. If you managed to upgrade several GM squads with flamer then there's an issue, but it's a L2P one.

[Sturnn]

Yep, they are too cheap to make them TSM counterpart in IG army.

[Cyris]

Considering their low cost, low upkeep and reinforcement cost, getting one flamer GM squad exclusively for powerbashing is relevant. Hence there is no issue here. If you managed to upgrade several GM squads with flamer then there's an issue, but it's a L2P one.

I quite like doing this when I go 3x GM. One GM stays completely un-upgraded, focusing on side capping and repairing. IF I see an opportunity for a push where there will be bashing, I throw flamers on him. It's more mico then I can handle some times, but it's incredibly powerful.