Patch 2.4 "minor" balance Issues 2.4.2

[Ace of Swords]

In this topic I'm not going to touch the obvious issues (FDs etc) but I'm gonna cover stuff that I think it's being overlooked.

Heart of Darkness

While the previous wargear was too strong and basically braindead to use, this new one fails to achieve it's role or at least what I identify as such, it's a wargear that increases damage and speed so my first idea is to pair it up with shees to better their retreat killing capabilities, however it fails miserably in this, as, especially in 1v1, your WL can't babysit the shees 24/7 nor can really flank with them as he is your spearhead or opening move for an engagement usually, so you can rarely make proper use of this wargear, however, it synergies well too well with the FOTM WGs, but that's not because the wargear is good it self, it's because of another issue I'll talk next.

To conclude with the WL, he's a good hero but his role is that of a tanky hero, leave the pure support wargear that interacts with your own units to the FS thus I'd like HoD to return to it's original purpose of increasing the WL's toughness just not as before and some downsides to it would be great too.

For example it could be something that stores up a % of damage and then releases it slowly over a certain period of time.


Wraithguards

Well, I really don't feel the need to explain why FOTM is retarded but I want to point out 2 extreme issues that were born by this change:

1) You can't tie up WGs anymore, even if you do, the eldar player just needs to keep right clicking on the unit they want to focus and they will keep firing at it, this brings us to issue number 2.
2) Transports are absolutely useless vs eldar, there's no way to use them, everything they have in T2 counters them and with the WG changes if you could have kited them, now you can't anymore, you can't stop them by tying them up, this is a huge issue for IG and SM (the latter which used to rely on RB to deal with eldar mobility in T2).


Plague Marines

This is unit is straight up OP, never a bad choice, provides ranged snare and good damage against vehicles, provides anti melee by the aura slow + can't be tied up, like WGs right clicking will make them keep firing, plus having a melee unit on them may cause your unit to bleed more than they bleed the PM, the insane HP regen/pool prevents them from being forced off the field any time soon, their AI damage is also off the charts right now, my main 2 problems with this unit is the current AI damage and resistance, they are also often used to creep up bases to kill manties/WW simply because they just don't care about suppression or any kind of damage you can throw at them.

Which creates another issue now, if chaos T2 was all they needed in retail, now it's full of braindead choices, buying autocannons into PMs is the go-to way always unless you need hard anti-weapons teams in the form of BL and BCs (which are so cheap that you should always get them, just to for force the vehicle issue your opponent will always lose by having to buy an AV unit that will quickly become useless or suffer from having to deal with a vehicle).


Force Commander

I 100% agree with the nerf on the TH tracking since that was retarded and has always been, however it's currently the to-go weapon because of it, because it will always KB enemy units and will always buff your units. With this fixed, I'd like to see some changes on the last issue, currently buffing your units with the FC battlecry (which is both his strength and his niche over other "tanky" commanders) is near impossible, unless you commits your units to stay in melee with the enemy ones specialized melee units, but in these case the FC will barely get any damage in while KBing maybe 2 models, 3 if you are lucky (and this is talking about the bigger squad of size 8-9), he's very easy to dodge even with alacrity and his buffs while using his baseline weapon/PS/PF rarely start rolling on your units. Still the power fist is a great weapons on it's own, it's self explanatory why, however the power swords despite being good suffers the most from it, it has enough dps to translate into early T2 but it can't buff your units and that would be the whole point of going for it.

So to go straight to the point, now that the broken things of FC have been addressed (like tracking vehicle stun and tracking AoE KB) I'd like to see a buff and a fix, the FC power sword should also increase the radius of battlecry by an addition 5 and then battlecry itself needs to lock itself on units better than it does now, I'm not asking for it to track, but just to proc damage buff on nearby units, otherwise FC will be quite useless.

[Asmon]

Considering the short range of WG they should never hit your transports, particularly with their long wind-up, unless you overcommit. Or if they're guided and you're not prepared. Even so they have 50% accuracy while fotm.

Their slug-speed is their main weakness, basically any dedicated melee squad can wipe them in retreat without any buff required. Do you have replays when you especially struggle trying to tie them up? I find them good at what they do atm, nothing more.

FC power sword is very niche but that's simply because his T2 weapons are awesome. So you either wait for T2 or invest into the sword, which is very good in itself and cheap, and try to make it worth in T1. In most cases vs heavy armored races. It doesn't need any buff. It's just here to win SM mirrors.

To buff battlecry, which might even be a good ability if it was only used to capture points under kb attacks or win hero duels, sounds ridiculous to me.

[Ace of Swords]

Considering the short range of WG they should never hit your transports, particularly with their long wind-up, unless you overcommit. Or if they're guided and you're not prepared. Even so they have 50% accuracy while fotm .

Care to explain to me how an artillery unit with a decent AoE has "50% accuracy on the move", for what it concerns me it always hits everything they want to hit, especially when it comes to squads (doesn't matter if they have 3-4 or 10 models) and vehicles, also you know better than me that warp spiders can immobilize any vehicles and unlike a brightlance which you can instantly de-setup or tie up and won't be able to fire at all, WGs will fire, you can't Knock them down, you can't suppress them, tying them up is pointless even when we don't take into account all the counter initiation and ways to stop melee units eldar and their heroes have and they have a large health pool making it very difficulty to force them off.

And again all this issue is born by the FOTM, PMs and ML tacts have a similar issue but they both need to be static to fire the missile so it's harder to pull it off unlike WGs which again, you can just spam right click on any unit you want to kill and even if you have 30 horma squads on you, they will fire their weapons to your target while walking towards them, this becomes especially broken when coupled with spiders nades, enhance, guide and so on.

Their slug-speed is their main weakness, basically any dedicated melee squad can wipe them in retreat without any buff required. Do you have replays when you especially struggle trying to tie them up? I find them good at what they do atm, nothing more.

They are speed 2.5 baseline and they get a +1 with a warlock nearby, 3.5 may seem slow but they can be both transported by a falcon, use gates, be teleported, etc, it's not like eldar lacks ways to bring them quickly where they want.

FC power sword is very niche but that's simply because his T2 weapons are awesome. So you either wait for T2 or invest into the sword, which is very good in itself and cheap, and try to make it worth in T1. In most cases vs heavy armored races. It doesn't need any buff. It's just here to win SM mirrors.
[quote="Asmon"
To buff battlecry, which might even be a good ability if it was only used to capture points under kb attacks or win hero duels, sounds ridiculous to me.

Power sword is niche because battlecry doesn't work as it's supposed to be, FC doesn't even come near the tankiness of HT/WB/CL, it's not fast like the WL it's not suppression immune and has no long range capabilities, I'm not saying he is UP, he had broken shit as I mentioned like the Flesh over steel and 360 tracking hammer, 1 was fixed a long time ago and there was a clear shift from people going PF 24/7 to TH 24/7, the latter is getting largely fixed next patch, now this leaves us with an hero that's supposed to buff and control via KB with nothing in hand, battlecry just doesn't work without TH this is a fact even when he's in contact with a slower melee unit that is moving he'll start doing his retarded dance and won't attack nor special them (thus not proccing the buff or doing any damage) and doing actually nothing, all of this not only removes his usefulness as hero but in addition makes PS quite useless (despite again, being actually a weapon with good stats itself and can be easily be relevant up to T3, if only it worked.)

Meanwhile when it's locked in melee combat when you use the battlecry ability he will do considerably less damage than he normally would (unless he has TH which is another reason to not get any other wep beside it).

What I'm asking to be done is a little buff of the increase the buff capabilities of the power sword in form of radius effect so that it enhances it's role as a buffing weapon and then I'm asking for battlecry to actually work when you use a weapon different from the TH.

I don't want it to receive a buff to it's own damage buff or damage dealt by the special, I'm asking for it to perform the special consistently instead of doing the retard dance or doing nothing at all which is why you never see most of the skilled FC players use battlecry during engagements (unless they have the TH of course), it actually nerfs and detracts the FC from it's role, you'll 99% of the times notice this happens with the PF but it's also true in early game with his default weapon. (also keep in mind I'm talking about infantry fights, also wouldn't mind if the KB immunity was gone.)


And for the last time, FC had broken shit which compensated for his ability being pretty bad, but now that's gone it's time to fix it.

[Black Relic]

Me and Tex had a small conversation on the power sword a while back. And he had made a post about a change for the power sword a while back ill get into to the proposed changes to try and make the power sword worth it. Because there isn't a reason to get the power sword at all. It honestly doesn't do that great in t1 SM matchups. You know they get control in the form of two shotguns or at least a dev. You have to get ASM if you go power sword and then they can counter initiate your ASM and you lose the engagement. That's how that works. Power sword is useless atm.

So Tex's suggestions where 50 more courage to the FC. Reason why he said that is sop the FC can go around set up team firing arc without being suppressed as long as he is at the "long": distance. But that movement is only well supported by AA and requires an extra investment so i thought it was a bit too little and did not address the problem. AA can already out maneuver setup teams with the sprint ability so this buff to the power sword would still be a bit redundant.

My first suggestion was increased damage of his sidearm. I enjoy stance switching for the FC but you have less opportunities after you get a weapon upgrade. I figured adding this would be a good change of pace. However, he bleed HI models too well and quickly got levels. Imagine having a combi-flamer weapon in the hands of an extremely mobile FC. He gain levels extremely quickly and didn't have to go into melee most of the time. He do fairly well against infantry as well and could finish off low hp transports pretty well. It was a bit too OP.

My Second suggestion was give the FC an ability to limit the control on him. All it would do is break suppression. He could get suppressed but he would be able to deal with one on demand suppression like pining fire, explosive shot and AWT. And give him a bit more freedom. You could also use it to get out of a setup team's arc if at long range.

I thought that one was a good one bit it still didn't solve the problem. The FC can get kited very easily still. Using battle cry with any weapon other than the TH is near pointless. So I came up with another suggestion. Tex liked this one.

My Third suggestion was his charge duration was increased by 1 second, the cooldown on his charge is reduced to 6 seconds. And The first target he charges into is knocked back (no damage, weapon knockback, although I'd love it to be ability but that might be a bit too strong). This allows the FC to still be controlled like always. However he cannot be kited as easily will still bleed models better. This would also help in deal with t2 melee squads a little bit by being able to knockback the leader sometimes.


Heart of Darkness is a good wargear although I do share you troubles with the warlock babysitting the shees. Here is what i suggest. Increase the cast range to 45 or 50. The he doesn't have to babysit them or at least be over their shoulder.

Honestly I want a change to the group teleport. I think there isnt too much need to get it in 1v1 sometimes. Since you can just fleet to a position and arrive at around the same time. I say reduce the time it take to use group teleport by 2 seconds. But I cannot provide any good reasons to back this suggestion up more so it might be be regulated to hot air.

But before any of the above are considered the following should be the first step before changing anything. As you know when the FC does a special attack while under the effect of battle cry when the power sword is equipped he buffs nearby units by 15%. However. when you pop battle cry when the power sword is equip the buff is still 10% and not 15%. Id say the first step before changing the initial design of the power sword would be that and see how it works. Since it fits into the description of the Force Commander.

[Dark Riku]

Honestly I want a change to the group teleport. I think there isnt too much need to get it in 1v1 sometimes. Since you can just fleet to a position and arrive at around the same time. I say reduce the time it take to use group teleport by 2 seconds. But I cannot provide any good reasons to back this suggestion up more so it might be be regulated to hot air.

Not all units can fleet, wraithguard come to mind You could also use gates to travel instantly. Non of these would be good arguments to buff the group teleport though.

[Broodwich]

I happen to think the power sword does work against sm and csm. I'd recommend a faster windup for his weapon specials, however, to counter the inconsistency of his ability to counter melee. The sword is a bit faster iirc which helps in that regard as well, but i can't check because specials arent in codex =\

[Sub_Zero]

Plagues marines + khorne havocs are a pretty strong combo. Plague marines alone aren't that fearsome and finally seem balanced (as I feel). The issue is still in melee resistance of havocs. Khorne havocs are incredibly strong. And should be forced off proportionally to their strength - fast. For some races it is impossible to take them out from range and they have to resort to using melee. And here where problems begin. Remove that needless resistance. And a lot of issues will be resolved.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I'd really like to see BC become more useful especially with the PS. I do agree that the weapon stats are fine but the skill barrier (potential git gud here) to pull off a successful BC to actually get the buffs rolling is quite high. It shouldn't be an "I win"-button ability but it is such a crucial part of how the FC engages the enemy that it should be more reliable. In my experience AA does help in that area though.

Concerning the weapon itself I find that it does not only perform well in SM/CSM MUs but also does quite the number on GKs as well. Their army roster is basically asking for it. A FC that is equipped with the Halo and the PS is so difficult to deal with for the GK player, especially if you also give him an armor upgrade (this is purely team games talk though).
It also fits quite well into my so-called "buff build": PS + Artificer + Standard, Libby and Dreadnought. The damage increase from all the buffs can be quite substantial.

[Forestradio]

A FC that is equipped with the Halo and the PS is so difficult to deal with for the GK player, especially if you also give him an armor upgrade (this is purely team games talk though).

ye makes total sense to sink in a ton of resources into a wargear combination that gets removed from the game as soon as the first 250/30 purchase by the other player hits the field
ill try that out, thanks for the tip

no but seriously, you CANNOT afford to do this without also getting heavily outteched and then losing the map to the invetiable rhino while the gk has several options they can now use to end the game, from libby+wargear to t3

[Adeptus Noobus]

I am quite aware that this is a hefty investment but I also said that this comes from strictly team-game experience. This will most definitely not work in a 1v1 situation. I have made very good experiences with this strategy so far, despite the inevitable Ops purchase.

[Dark Riku]

Halo in T2 just gets drained by the strikes justicar as well.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Halo in T2 just gets drained by the strikes justicar as well.

Never even thought of that. No more Halo then. Will have to think of something new then

[Asmon]

I happen to think the power sword does work against sm and csm. I'd recommend a faster windup for his weapon specials, however, to counter the inconsistency of his ability to counter melee. The sword is a bit faster iirc which helps in that regard as well, but i can't check because specials arent in codex =\

Indeed PS has a faster special that grants guaranteed kb against single entities, as long as BC is on.

After a bit of thinking I'd agree to make BC pop its bonus every 7s or so (which would result in 3 pops at least), no matter whether the FC does land a hit.

[Crewfinity]

Indeed PS has a faster special that grants guaranteed kb against single entities, as long as BC is on.

After a bit of thinking I'd agree to make BC pop its bonus every 7s or so (which would result in 3 pops at least), no matter whether the FC does land a hit.

that could get pretty crazy pretty quick. counterplay vs face commander is to control him during battlecry while you kite away, if he's giving 30% buff guaranteed as well as a potential extra 25% it would punish super hard even if you're playing correctly and controlling him well. i do agree that his specials could use some attention to make them proc more consistently when he's in and amongst the enemy, but i really don't like the idea of the guaranteed buff. it would essentially quadruple the power of battlecry 0_o

[Asmon]

That's only if we keep the buffs adding onto themselves, rather than simply resetting the 15s duration.