Techmarine

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Forestradio
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Techmarine

Postby Forestradio » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 6:01 am

So taken from here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2330

Tex wrote:outimbaing the almostoutimba-able (yah.. I just said that) by beating the BalanceAlpha with the BalanceMarine
Toilailee wrote:Tm is op now?
Tex wrote:TM has been a bit OP for a long time IMO. But hey, since not many people play him (well) it hasn't been a problem in 1v1.
Atlas wrote:What exactly is op about him? His Plasma + Mark Target is nuts, granted.

Now that we've got a ladder and whatnot, let's have a discussion about the tm, preferably with some replay evidence huehue :twisted:

op? up? balanced? me and aguxyz are apparently just "not many people" so i'll let people who are higher ranked than us decided ;)

edit: MODERATORS THIS IS NOT A TROLL THREAD. do not close it or delete it or ban me or aguxyz
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Aguxyz » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 6:12 am

I have a few to say about TM MCB i feel like it cost to much for what it can do sure it does good dmg and suppresses but i feel like it should do full dmg on retreat since its the only sniper in the game.... oh wait gk and LA exist Image
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Element » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 7:58 am

Bringing back the discussion, The Techmarine has always been one of the most weapon versatile situational instance opportunistic discovery commanders in the game. I mean if I re-check, the last time I saw the Techmarine wargear section directory, there's literally an almost on call- demand ability upgrade purchase for any given instance which makes him capable of being very well so adverse, adept, and capable of dealing with just about any given situational instance, much in frame with any "Strategical Fortification Architectural" Commander. In addition, at that, he's a Space Marine, which in itself amplifies this felt field presence effectiveness relationship regarding his sense of ability to be able to actually (position, (reposition), locate, (relocate), & manuevere) around the field unlike the plague champion who is very sturdy, bulky, & slow. I mean it's like he's the perfect conception of presentative Combinational elements, & at the end of the day, the only way in which to really be able to out deal with him is to have a great mannerism and sense of as to how to deal with the rest of the infantry around him that are supporting his slow and context to say timely advancement up the field. (if you can do that given he has abilities, wargear, & the ranged damage to be able to say something about that too.) At the end of the day, he's just one really solid commander. From my experiences, heavy ranged damage, long ranged pierce, and a vast amount of out-flanking units (posioning, locationing, & manuevering) (bout) are usually the mechanicums of Directional focus comprisements, I usually look to utilize when facing him given his inability to usually somewhat really be able to "adjust on the fly". Introducing a bit of speed into the facilitative mix will usually help to throw the Techmarine off balance at least somewhat, given the Techmarine likes a relatively moderate- Slow (non- fast) protractment aptitude measurement of developmental fortification, & strategical amplification play and when you can throw him off his pace of play, he becomes more so or less agitated and becomes progressively more so easily capable of being handled given he wants (Positions, locations, & manuevering) capabilities regarding transitional hallways usually to facilitate generator bashes, (so as to keep you from teching, coming out on the field even(focus misdirected by offset outside set- up powrfarm turret) and then, not having the units, upgrades, & wargear to effectively deal with him in any (positioning, locationing, & manuevering) (bouts), skirmishes &/or attrition later on; but still portrays to like, act as if, play & want map field presentational stability regarding turrets, beacons, devastator teams, razorbacks, & any other set- up team/ All- Rounded effectiveness capability units that just come to continue to fortify his Positional field standing. At the end of the day, I've never found him so much as broken as much as very well comprised as a freedom pick personal commander choice. I do believe that Bionics should be looked at however, because as it stands right now, that ability has like practically no cooldown, and given that you can practically spam that ability at least once each engagement, I find that pretty much nuts given his already well adept, adverse, & all- Well roundedness capabilities regarding being able to effectively counter any means of trying to develop any mannerism of close- combat play especially given his already well so capable "High Powered Shot ability" which trolls like every single close combat unit in the game as it stands already, Mine Field deployment capabilities, Turret play, Marked Target...and the list goes on...I mean really, the question as it stands now is..."What can't the Techmarine do xD?"
Last edited by Element on Fri 22 Jan, 2016 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Asmon
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Asmon » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 11:16 am

Yeah, you know... paragraph... organizing your thoughts... so unimportant and futile for the readers.

Onto the topic: MCB is very good, Bionics needs longer cd, Refractor Field needs to lose its passive perk, third armor needs some love (at least in retail they tried, and failed, to do something with it).
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Crewfinity
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 2:28 pm

this hero makes me rage on maps with garrisons.

but thats more to do with me hating garrisons than me hating techmarine.

fuck garrisons.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Tranca » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 4:28 pm

Bionics | T1
100 20 20

Grants the Powerful Sweep ability that damages and knocks back enemies around the Techmarine. Also increases health by 150, melee damage by 15% and health regeneration by 2.5 hp/s.

Hi, guys! I have what is probably the most broken T1 armor in the game... on a hero that can place turrets that supress... and call down dreads... on a race that is already strong as hell in T1... because fuck you!

Why is it even a question that this hero needs to get worked on? I literally forgot that Apo existed while writing this post. That's how popular FC and TM are.

Seriously, the more I play this game, the more I realize how imbalanced some races are.

...and people bitch about slugga nobz and WSE? o_O
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Forestradio » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 6:48 pm

Tranca wrote:call down dreads

ye that fucking ven dread is so op, it costs 300 red more than all walkers without any options for ranged wargear, will inevitably meet enemy AV because every tm bo out there includes a t2 rb/dread in 99% of mus, appears in a meta where tanks are king in t3 and can kite it all day long, and also where vehicle snares and brainless anti-all amove weapons are everywhere

nerf plz

oh wait that's already happening next patch, nvm Image
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 7:00 pm

The bionics armour is pretty amazing TBH. The bonus health and regeneration are almost as good as those provided by the artificer armour (+150/+2.5 compared to +200/+3), and on top of that you get a TM who can shut down a melee unit like banshees, sluggas, horms.. etc easily.

I haven't played against him a lot but, on paper, he seems to have no significant weaknesses in T1.
-Health and regen bonuses mean that if he hunkers down in a piece of cover or a garrison he is gonna be a bitch to dislodge
-Sweep provides crowd control against melee and takes away 30-56% of a T1 units HP (horms have 80hp each, sluggas 100, banshees 150 each)
-Tankiness plus extra melee dmg means he is a very competent bully unit who can tie up a ranged unit for a long time while being hard to bring down

I don't play pro-level 1v1 but I can see why people who face him get frustrated by how versatile he is.
Atlas

Re: Techmarine

Postby Atlas » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 7:49 pm

Bionics is so op man, I get to spam it once an engagement. At least it doesn't heal the TM when he uses it because that would be stupid :p

Increase the cooldown on it a bit and it's fine.

The MCB would be great if it didn't cost 30 power for no effective dps increase and an ability that bugs for me half the time. So yes, it's "good".

The Refractor Field nerf makes me ? ? ?. The shield is t2 and doesn't give kback immunity as it is. Why nerf it further? Orbs are better in like every way.

The real op things for tm usually revolve around team games, where his structures are bonkers. But for 1v1 I think plasma and mark target allows for very high plasma at great range. Even then, that TM is made of paper with that setup.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Asmon » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 10:16 pm

HPS doesn't bug. The TM merely has a very slow rotation rate while performing the ability (is it wanted or did relic fail? who knows). Since he targets one model, if the said model runs around left and right TM struggles to aim. I don't think it requires any fix, just be careful if you use it at close range.

His shield is the best shield for absorbing damage. It doesn't prevent kb but who cares.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 22 Jan, 2016 11:14 pm

LOL. Make it prevent KB then and see who cares. Not preventing KB is a very big deal.
Some of these post. OMG. This is why I don't even bother anymore.

People complain about SM? °_O like who? XD
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Atlas » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 2:27 am

Yeah, what RIku said. Not having kback immunity for the TM shield is a huge minus and really hurts his melee build.

Like, do you even ever see his melee build? Of course not, because there's almost no good reason to ever get it. He gets fleshhooked without the shield and he gets fleshooked with the shield.

Remember this?

It's a lot like that.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 3:16 am

How many shields in the game confer knockback immunity? I had assumed it was unique to the LC.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Crewfinity » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 3:33 am

the only one I can think of that doesn't is the TM.

However he also gets 20% extra damage reduction from it as it reduces enemy accuracy, which makes it awesome as a non-melee build shield.
with the health regen from his armors, he can sit in green cover and bleed models for days.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Tex » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 3:52 am

I love how nobody even mentions that BoO heals vehicles for ungodly amounts and is further compounded as the TM starts piling up vehicles.

But hey, what do I know.

And yes, MCB needs buffs.. blah blah.

In summation:

OP list
-bionics
-mark target
-retreat beacon
-BoO

UP list
-MCB
-melta gun (sort of, but sort of not... it does a shit ton of damage with great fotm)
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Crewfinity » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 4:44 am

i dont think the melta gun is UP at all. its got full FoTM which is amazing on AV. and signum and orbs synergize so well with it to make him crazy hard AV with no upkeep and not even that low of range.

As just a weapon purchase its still pretty awesome. Inq has to pay 50 power for her melta pistol and while it has better range and that awesome ability, melta gun is on par damage wise and she only has 50% FoTM accuracy. as AV goes its dirt cheap and melta damage is good vs anything and everything.
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Element
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Element » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 6:37 am

I completely confer, almost completely agree, & very much reason in that of the same circumstantial regards as Crewfinity in relations to the melta gun. There is nothing bad, nor overwhelmingly great about the melta gun other than that it is a very versatile weapon item usually free choice pick- up piece of wargear. It's really effective towards vehicles, has good anti- infantry capabilities and can deal some hefty A.H damage as well regarding individual model losses for say, and at the end of the day, all you need is to make sure you are using the right units in accordingly, well- versed, Synergetic Combinational correspondence with one another for the purposes of the Long Ranged A.V. snare> orbs of the omnisiah> melta gun> melta gun chase finisher> Long Ranged A.v. snare chase finisher. It's almost impossible not to take down any convincing vehicle that does not have the right commander, infantry, aside vehicle, ability, &/or globaly ability support. As for the other listed items that Tex has presented which are considerably deemed to be "O.P." I would agree with Bionics needing a longer cooldown reduction cycle, I would agree with High Powered Shot given its relation to reduce an incoming T1 close combat unit model's health to almost conceivably be what I believe to 3/4ths- half health within a relative short (Dimensias, Aspect Area Ratios, Spacial, Time, Projection) span, given the accountancy of the supporting infantry, commander, vehicles etc. Support. I would agree with the retreat beacon given that no other commander in the game has the ability to literally be able to establish a true standing field presentational- running skirmish- staying prowess "Field Command Center" out on the field and such an attributive "lack of retreat" support ability- capabilities earlier- middle portion aspect of the game (late game there are Landraiders which are fine given there are units which can deal with them) to which personally I'd say just remove the health regeneration Aura that the beacon provides but include the retreat beacon capbilities, the reinforce capabilities and maybe instead add in if for say if this is not already apart attributive to standing around the beacon, a damage incoming reduction bonus from standing (without, within, throughout) certain area radius so as to enable them some positive benefit for having been able to retreat back to the beacon, stand around the beacon, & try and facilitate healthy Initiative pushes, standing confrontations, and counter initiation facilitative advances instead. Finally as for B.o.t.O., I'd just adjust the incoming heal regeneration provided by the global and not just have to remove the ability all together given the ability as it stands is a really good ability for the Techmarine given the nature of his conception, and the accountive means to facilitate the use of, often incorportate, & naturalistic contribute to the growth of vehicles. 10 health regeneration/1secs./30 secs. Seems fine to me though a number for say like 12.5 may be cutting or perhaps just right, who knows. One would have to tinker with the felt connective relationship to conceive a sense of as to whether the balance seems fitting at 10 or 12.5 but my personal aptitude of felt relation would be towards 10 given that I wouldn't be looking for the vehicle to have the ability to stand on its own, rather the (fellow combatant, player, individual) to have to give a respetively competent Conscious approach to the means of what is supporting the vehicle still with units, commander, infantry, &/or/for say other vehicles, rather than to just trollalolalol all forwards, amongst, past, throughout, & beyonst the map because "B.o.t.O." Marked Target is only really good becacuse it is a damage modifier much like the Farseer's doombringer "Doom" ability which I have also brought up to Caeltos personally as possibly being a little bit too good for its own good as well given that when those modifiers which are very much Universal become capable of stacking with a very large, vast, & intricate array of units the damage really begins to stack and support will always be one of the major conceptions of the game, life, and anything really. I would say that taking into the account the Techmarine's already potent ranged damage capabilities, the accounts of the supporting Tactical Marines, not to mention counter-Initiative scouts and all the other Contributive elements (without, within, & throughout) the S.M.'s roster a 10% damage modifier reduction to 30% probably not 35%, I still believe this would be too much, would be the best directional facilitative focus so as to make sure the ranged damage coming from the supporting Tacs, shotgun scoutas, and most notably devastators (which are usually bought amongst Techmarine players...I'll choose to avoid elaboration given I understand I have elaborated quite a lot already) in addition to any often bought razorbacks, plasma cannon devastators, doesn't seem to become too critical towards any means of close combat unit model factions trying to facilitate a means to make their way into close combat.
Other than that, I like where this discussion is going, whehhh what a long post xD, I apologize, carry on.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Nurland » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 7:49 am

MC Bolter could go back to 25 power. I think it is more reasonable for what it does.

Signum is good but as said, signum TM is made of paper.

Bacon and Tourette's are a bit ott in team games but not really in 1v1

Biyolonics needs a bit more CD und it iz fine.

Artificer is pretty good as it is.

Refractor shield doesn't really need a nerf. It is T2 and has less benefit for melee builds compared to other shields. Especially since TM usually has abilities that drain quite a bit energy.

BoO is pretty crazy especially with melee resist walkers or several vehicles. Don't think it is super imba.

Melta Gun seems to be in a great spot atm. Cheap and gives nice dps. Works well with signum or bionics.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby DandyFrontline » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 6:43 pm

Bionics should be 25 power and increase CD by 5 seconds. At the moment it's really too good for 20 power.

MCB should be 25 power or have a DPS buff. 30 power is sick for sniper shot with really long CD.

Refractors field is fine

Beacon is a little bit OP in team game. Possible to fix with HP decrease or remove/nerf of heal . Other way, move it to t2
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Re: Techmarine

Postby egewithin » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 8:44 pm

v Anomaly v wrote:Image


I can read your whole post without any problem, I am responsible with MUCH worse than that, but I won't. As long as you don't start to use paragraphs.

IMO, he is the best hero in the game, maybe just loosing to FC sometimes. No, I am no SM fan boy :D , but come on, every upgrade he has are beatiful. His upgrades are perfectly balanced, perfectly costs and very oftenly satisfacts me. Only one thing itches my mind :

Image Image

This combo... These 2 buildings are perfectly balanced and has no need to change in any orders. Even if there is with a small possibilty ; I would vote for a health regen buff for heroes. I always need to retreat to base to heal my hero up. I don't have the same problem with rest of my army. Regen is good for infantry squads but not enough for heores. Anyway : this combo sometimes looks too good ( not powerfull I said, only good ) and I even felt sad for my enemy once, only once thankfully. This combo is another way of Dark Rikus snowball tactic ( Go LRR, get Termies ) You are not able to do a spesific army for a long time, but it keeps paying as long as game continues. This combo is balanced and needs no change. But in realty, it is a hidden snowball and it disturbes me.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Forestradio » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 9:59 pm

Tex wrote:I love how nobody even mentions that BoO heals vehicles for ungodly amounts and is further compounded as the TM starts piling up vehicles.


u mad cuz of this game Tex? https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/1130

lot of theorycraft going on here...

for example what is op about bionics again? aside from cd there is nothing wrong with the wargear, but ye if you just run in your melee squads without even bothering to check the wargear selection or bait the sweep i guess you'll take some losses...
there are plenty of other t1 wargears, even for 20 power, that do just as much against melee in t1 anyways

mcb is fine really, nothing to add, just don't compare it to flesh hook cuz flesh hook is bonkers op, when u have a balanced thing and an op thing u never buff the balanced thing, just nerf the op thing...

melta up? for price this is fine, it deters vehicles and nothing more, it's a tactical wargear, and if anything more wargear should be like this, right now too many heroes have wargear that is automatically purchased regardless of the situation which is just bad design and bad balance

would like to see some 1v1 replays demonstrating what's being said here after all ;)
Atlas

Re: Techmarine

Postby Atlas » Sat 23 Jan, 2016 10:13 pm

Exposing my current bias here, but I pretty much concur with Forest all around on the last few points.

Bionics might need some CD adjustment, but it's not OP by any means. I mean, Inq has 2 weapons that are roughly equal in price and tier and wreck melee just as hard and I don't see people calling them imba as heck.

I would appreciate a MCB cost decrease though, it doesn't compare to Flesh Hook :P

As for the TM Melta, meh. I haven't found a scenario where I really wanted it, but that's mostly because I like Orbs and follow up a lot more than the Melta. I can imagine it would be good for TM punching holes in Walkers though.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Crewfinity » Sun 24 Jan, 2016 12:26 am

Atlas wrote:Bionics might need some CD adjustment, but it's not OP by any means. I mean, Inq has 2 weapons that are roughly equal in price and tier and wreck melee just as hard and I don't see people calling them imba as heck.


INQ also doesn't come standard with 35 piercing dps at long range.
TM Is really punishing to light infantry in t1 already. Trying to out shoot him when he's in green cover is a losing proposition already, and normally you want to send your units in for melee. Baiting it out is easier said than done, he has no reason to use it as soon as he gets tied up. Better to let his opponent keep trying to bait it out by having his melee units dance around him, meanwhile he keeps peeling off models with 35 dps.

The extra health and regen is just icing on the cake, and makes him even better at tanking damage and bleeding models from cover.

When he sticks with a tac squad, enemy melee is more or less useless in t1. They get shot up by 70 dps as they approach, maybe get a few hit in when they try to focus tacs, then TM can run in and knock them all over creation. The knock back is far enough that they will take a whole to get up and retreat, making retreat kills with tacs viable in the first couple engagements. If they play more cautiously with their melee, tacs/TM just stay in cover and laugh as they outshoot everything.
Atlas

Re: Techmarine

Postby Atlas » Sun 24 Jan, 2016 4:19 am

Staying with the Inq, I don't think I need to remind you that for 110/20 she gets access to a 100% Fotm 35 dps piercing bow that also completely locks down whatever you point it at AND scales better in the game because of IG synergies like Manti and such.

Following up one last bit with the Inq, she manages to get a knockback immune shield a whole tier earlier than the TM does as well :P

But look, I can compare TM to op things all day. Powerful Sweep has a 25 second cooldown, but Drain Life has a 30 second cooldown. High Powered Shot doesn't pull units towards an army and doesn't hit through retreat, Fleshhook does etc etc.

The point is that the TM needs to be good at something in 1v1. I happen to think it's being able to spout super high plasma damage and being able to stick behind green cover. Bionics/Arti lets him do that.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Crewfinity » Sun 24 Jan, 2016 5:18 am

The health regen and health boost is also a pretty big perk. Its just a bit much to have all of that for so cheap. Pretty brain dead armor in most matchups, unless you're against an HI race.

Who even gets melee vs Inq anyway :P

Lol I don't think the issue is whether the techmarine is good at some thing in 1v1... I wold say instead that he's good at everything there. Maybe a little weak to melee blobs but oh wait he can support a melee dread like no other...

I don't think he's super crazy op or anything but he's a damn powerful hero. And Bionics is really just a huge pain in the ass to deal with in t1(but thats also just a prsonal problem). Refer to the recent Tex vs forest game on jarilo, it can really dominate the early game vs light infantry races.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Lulgrim » Sun 24 Jan, 2016 6:18 am

Forestradio wrote:https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/1130

This sounds epic, cast pls
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Deuce Bigalow » Sun 24 Jan, 2016 3:23 pm

If the balance team decides that bionics is OTT (it is not in my opinion) in the early game, I humbly propose that we slightly weaken it's initial damage (drop to 40 from 45) and have it add 3 damage for every level the TM gains (similar to apo's heal, except it's a small change with every level). This scaling effect will make it more viable late game.

Or (quick fix), leave it as is but increase power cost to 25. If we increase the power cost of Bionics to 25, then I would prefer to see the Master-Crafted Bolter drop to 25 as well.

In the meantime, I advise that you do not engage a well-played techmarine in melee (with swarmy races at-least) in the early game due to the threat of the mid-engagement-upgrade to bionics. A well-played techie knows that bionics is great (not OP), usually buys it early, and will try to force you into approaching him while he's upgrading. Don't do dat.

I can hear you say "If I can't approach in melee or range, then WHAT DO?!" If you care to hear suggestions about how to play around the TM in the early game, then ask and a post will be made in the strategy section. It involves early suppression and smart positioning. If you don't care to hear suggestions and just want to complain about balance rather than adapt, then find a therapist.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sun 24 Jan, 2016 4:24 pm

I like the possibility of a scalable Bionics melee TM build. It is really worth thinking about as it would, as was said before, make the wargear more viable in the late-game. A power increase to 25 seems reasonable in this instance imo.
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 24 Jan, 2016 8:47 pm

I like the idea of scaling damage for abilities in general. Haven't people also suggested that the warlock destructor could use some scaling too?
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Asmon
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Re: Techmarine

Postby Asmon » Sun 24 Jan, 2016 9:45 pm

When wargears seem too powerful it's never a fix to change their prices...

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