Eldar Design notes & questions

[Caeltos]

Hello everyone, I thought I would share my thoughts on Eldar, their design as well as their gameplay mechanics, and how they currently function within the game. Please note, that these are my subjective opinions, and yours may differ – but I hope we can reach some common ground and see on how we can best develop a faction that represents them accordingly, and furthermore distinguish them from other factions. This is just part 1 of several threads I would like to make in the future, regarding the design of factions - and gameplay interaction correlating between these two key ingredients.

Eldar



The Eldar are an ancient alien race whose vast empire once expanded the width and breadth of the known galaxy. Their empire was without equal, and they counted themselves masters of the stars. But millennia ago, their overweening pride and their fall into hedonistic practices led to a cataclysm that all but eradicated their kind and led to the birth of the Chaos God Slaanesh. Despite their boundless power, the heart of their civilisation was torn out by this catastrophe of their own making, forcing the surviving Eldar to flee upon gigantic starships called Craftworlds. Now they cling to survival by a thread, fighting the horrors of the galaxy with ritualised discipline and consummate skill. Though highly advanced and feared across the galaxy, the Eldar are a dying race -- a shadow of their former glory -- their race teeters on the brink of annihilation.

— Shameless copy-paste from the WH40K Wiki

Design based on lore representation

Since the Eldar are a "dying" race, they're not as numerous as some of the other existing factions, with the exception of Space Marines / Grey Knights, who are arguably one of the fewest in numbers, but are supposed to be measured in efficiency (quality over quantity aspect). They're most definitely not terrible warriors, so they have to find a nice mixture of Space Marine lite in their army arsenal in terms of damage output.

The Eldar have to rely on proper positioning, and picking their fights carefully, so that they don't lose their valuable lives. This goes hand-in-hand with the representation that the Eldar are a dying "race" in the regards that you don't want to lose models unnecessarily, and doing so will hurt your overall economy, and might lose you the game. These aspects of controlling your economy, and picking the right fights I feel is a good ground-up to accommodate to the Eldar thematic playstyle, that also does service to the general Warhammer lore.

The problem from retail, and the problem in Elite

I can't say with a straight face that they're in a good spot at the moment. I feel the aspect of picking fights is way too much dependant on Webway Gates, and Webways are generally abit of a mix bag of fun & anti-fun mechanics to the game, allowing fast traversing over the map. Which makes it a burden when it comes to the factions performance on small, as well as bigger maps – be that both underperforming in some, and over-performing in others. If we look back at retail, the Webway usage was a bit all over the place. The reward for destroying Webways was non-existant, and it was too much of a hassle to even do so on some occasions. It wasn't a fun experience for the players who were chasing the Webways, but the Eldar were having fun just moving all around. It's important to find the gameplay experience is fun for both players, thus if the chase is worth it – it can be fun for the hunter, as well as for the Eldar. If that makes any sense? I'm not quite convinced we've reached a good spot for the reward aspect for the hunter at the moment, but it's certainly not a complete waste of time anymore. Losing Webways should be more integrated to the aspect of the controlling your economy/XP just as much controlling your opponents. Eldar technology and all those shenanigans shouldn't be squandered by other alien scum and such.

Either way, back in retail – there were two significant things that I want to bring up, that both highlights & diminishes the representation of the Eldar faction. I will also draw parallels from the original beta Eldar, which had a lot more significant thematical approach to mobility incorporated in their gameplay.

1. Retail Eldar were way too static.

Eldar post-CR (Chaos Rising) became an extremely static faction. Hell, even post-TIOW (the There Is Only War patch). A lot of that had to with the general meta shifts and gameplay overhaul. Mobility for Eldar became close to non-existant due to the dependency for shuriken platforms due to homogenization of the factions. Pre-TIOW, there were multiple ways for Eldar to remain mobile and agressive, as well defensive. Two important ones were the following;

• Eldar Guardians Plasma Grenade used to inflict suppression (not sure of the damage compared to Frag, so won't comment on that)
• Eldar Rangers used to have two different firing modes (one that caused the target to be suppressed, and one for actual heavy damage)

As may you have noticed, the Eldar Ranger sniper suppression effect is something we've recently touched back on, and it was to see if we could shift the Eldar faction into becoming more aggressive and utilize moving suppression platforms (although be that low damage). It's been a mixed bag, but I still feel in the end, that this is the best approach thus far. We also tried out internally (at least I believe so) with a change to the (firing) arc & range of the Shuriken, which allowed it to be used for more aggressive utility (at least, this was the intended design). In the end, we no longer have that in the existing version of Elite, as it became just clumsy, and still wasn't worth using primarily as an aggressive platform. (Map layouts collided with the new changes to the Shuriken etc., so it became too hard to hold down points, which just lead to having more Shurikens.)

As for post-TIOW, there was the Warp Spider mayhem meta, which was pretty much the only fast-moving infantry for Eldar really, that highlighted the mobility of the faction. However, with only just a single squad highlighting these aspects, it quickly became mundane, and linear in its evolution. And the counter-methods were few, and as a result the matchups quickly became quite repetitive and more of a chore, rather than a nice flow of gameplay. It's hard to put it to words, but in the end – it wasn't that pretty for general gameplay.

The accomplishments and failures of the newly incorporated units

With Dark Reapers & Fire Dragons, the Dark Reapers were meant as a solution for Eldar to have some hard-hitters against infantry/heavy infantry/commanders, with the exception of Warp Spiders and Wraithguard (Wraithguard serving more for durability and anti-vehicle/AoE purpose). Guardians/Dire Avengers serving as your repair/support backup units, and primary assault unit for early game. Dire Avengers will always have a place in the game, as long as they have their utility – so there was no risk for overlapping effiency here. The most important was to differentiate the performance enough between Dire Avengers & Dark Reapers in their damage output, as well as make sure the Dark Reapers' lack of mobility was well compensated enough compared to Warp Spiders. This was to touch on the subject of the linear-predictable playstyles and evolution of the early mid game, branching up paths for players.

Dark Reapers have seen their share of changes, and they're bound to receive some more to further reach toward the intended goal with the unit. They've gone from crazy to useless to somewhat falling off the meta, and sometimes even resurfacing from time to time. They've become more of a player preference unit, and that's perfectly acceptable – and that's even a good indication that it's doing its purpose. A unit should never become a "MUST HAVE", it's important to have options available and to keep your opponent guessing. Maybe you're a player known for using unit X, but you can throw them off by building another viable alternative unit instead. Being unpredictable is a great mindset to have, and can really shake things up in the game, and it helps the meta to be in a continuous flux and always a learning experience. But that's another topic for another time.

Fire Dragons fall somewhat in the same category as Dark Reapers, with the exception that they're a bit too good in their current state, and hopefully in the next patch the methods for counter-playing them should be more flexible. Fire Dragons were meant to give leeway for Eldar to play more on the aggressive front again, whilst still preserving the defensive-preference Brightlance cannon for dealing with vehicles. I feel this has been very much successful, and the symbiosis with Webways and other misc. commander/global abilities that are disposable, they really shine as aggressive shock troopers in this sense.

I was a bit frustrated when I was trying to figure out the Fire Dragons for quite some time, and I was considering scrapping the unit entirely instead of making it work. An alternative for Fire Dragons were Shadow Spectres (although I believe they're not exactly a canon unit, so it's a bit of a touchy subject on that matter). I feel they would fall somewhat into the same category as Warp Spiders, with the exception of being a primarily anti-vehicle type of unit (although they do carry Fire Prism -like weaponry), but you gotta keep it reasonable to some degree. Either way, the idea was scrapped due to a lack of models and the implementation of a flying unit would be a hell to do. But I thought I would share the idea either way, because I think it would have been pretty badass (balance could have been just a bit all over the place with that type of unit).

What's in store for Eldar in the future?

Eldar at the moment are in an okay spot. I do believe it could be refined, specifically on certain units that aren't quite feeling the Eldar-esque theme of gameplay. Those units in particular as follows;

• Wraithguard
• Vehicles / Wraithlord

Wraithguard are these slow medium-sized Terminators. For inspiration, just google Wraithguard and look at some art from them. They're meant to be spearhead assault units, soaking the damage, being bullet sponges for the rest of the Eldar army whilst they may up. They currently move at a pace that I'm fairly comfortable that looks intimidating, and you might want to turn tail and leg it if you see them, and figure out a plan of attack to deal with them. However, it often turns out to be that Wraithguard manage to fire a volley, and the fight is over – very anticlimatic for the most part. (Now, now – I know that not every fight is over in a heartbeat, and sometimes Wraithguard can actually fire multiple volleys, but the point is that the interaction of the representation of the unit and the balance evaluation of the unit are not aligned correctly with one another).

Point being, the balance can be "correct", but the other part is not. The best-case scenario is that it's both immersive, fun & balanced. Not just "well, at least it's balanced in a sense". So in this sense, if we want to aim for a more "slow-moving Terminator hulks", but not necessarily compromise the balance completely – a certain key thing I want to look into is their very much so boring Wraithbone upgrade. It may be very powerful, but it's not a very interesting ability. So why not make it more interesting as a result?

Wraithguards already have a lot of downtime due to their slow movement speed, so what if we did the following with the Wraithbone (THIS IS JUST A CONCEPT, AND NOT AN ACTUAL THING):

• Wraithbone Healing no longer causes the Wraithguard to become immobile
• Wraithbone Healing makes the squad unable to be enhanced by any speed effects for the duration
• Wraithbone Healing tweakaroo in numbers possibly (nerfs probably)

So, the consequences of the following will allow Wraithguard in late game to keep laying on the pressure between fights. Let's just hypothesize that your Wraithguard took a heavy blow, and they're down to 50 % health. You managed to win the engagement, however. You really want to keep up the pressure – in the existing version, the Wraithguard would be stuck in place for 7 seconds doing nothing. Resulting in 7 seconds of not moving forward and being able to pressure your opponent. In the concept version, you would activate the healing – but still move forward, with that healing effect surrounding them. Visually, if spotted by the opponent – it strikes the theme of a "never-ending pushing machine, it's slow – but dang, that's scary". Of course, the balance evaluation of said said concept would need to be re-evaluated as a result, but ultimately the goal is to get the theme right for Eldar.

(Wraithlords are somewhat in the same category, so I'll refrain from posting a singular explanation regarding that note.)

On to the vehicles:

I've spoken with Myrdal regarding some approaches to generally how all factions' vehicles are currently presented in the game, and how I would like to further distinguish them from one another. This was sometime back in October or November, I believe, hell, even during the summer – so there's a lot of stuff that doesn't reach these forums regarding design & future approaches and general gameplay stuff. However, I would like to just voice some of my thoughts on the matter, since this falls a bit on the category of the Eldar theme in their gameplay etc.

Regarding vehicle speed, specifically that of the Fire Prism, which is not the most durable of tanks. However, it has reach to compensate for it. It has this weird interaction of being fun and anti-fun. To elaborate, whilst playing on the defensive and just firing at squads futilely trying to capture a point is fun, the opponent is not so much inclined to agree as to how much fun he/she is having. It's a frustrating tank that doesn't allow for much counter-play interaction, with the exception of an all-in attack, which results in the Fire Prism's ultimate demise due to its lack of mobility. Remember the economy aspect of the game, and how brutal this game can sometime be? It's not really working in complete harmony here. It sometimes becomes a matter of cost-effiency and risk vs. reward elements all in one, that's why alot of players opted for the safer-route of D-cannons, which have less pop cost, great range and an X button to haul ass.

So the Eldar tank's thematical design would be that they have really poor survivability if alone – but they should have the speed/acceleration/rotation as a tool for counter-play. This helps to distinguish other vehicles in the game so that they don't share so much similiar stats to one another, but with a few exceptions. As a result, if said speed/acceleration/rotation was changed, it would lose something else in the process – say, the knockback functionality and some general damage tweaks to its weapons. I can't say numbers exactly, so I'll just have to ask you to paint a scenario in your head where one engages the Fire Prism, but it quickly relocates to a safer location. You may have baited it into a more dangerous position, which you were hoping for – or you'll need to quickly react to the new target's locations, or surrounding ones. We can hope to accomplish two things with this design:

• The Eldar set up a trap (which falls into theme with the faction) or we can pretend that a poor judgement of attack is otherwise, just this.
• The flow of gameplay is improved. (Instead of mashing X and falling back, the fights can be prolonged and exciting, instead of decided by the opening move.)

If said Fire Prism relocated, it's important to note that I'm not picturing it dealing its current damage in retaliation to said squad that jumped on it, or assaulted it. It's significantly less, but more manageable to react to. Its anti-vehicle performance is undecided, since I've only mentioned squads etc. Its anti-vehicle performance is quite okay, I find. But it's something that's up for discussion.)

All in all

So I'm going to round it up here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on a few matters. If you're just going to complain about Fire Dragons, I'll just delete your posts, since I've even mentioned that discussion in this thread, and that just means you're too stupid or lazy not to read through it.

• How do you feel the Eldar gameplay feels at the moment? Does it currently do justice to the Eldar themes?
• Like/dislike some of the concept ideas that were posted in this thread, yes/no? Why? Elaborate.

So all in all: The goal is to preserve some of the existing "core" functions of the faction, to ensure it doesn't seem too "alien" or run the risk of alienating existing players. It's about opening up the diversity and flexibility of the Eldar roster, to make sure it all hits a home run. Or whatever.

Thank you for taking your time to read through all this. I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

[Lulgrim]

Note: As this is a rather essential (and long) post, I have given it a “publication edit” pass and tweaked some typos & grammar (1-letter changes mostly) as well as layout, so it would read as smoothly as possible.

[egewithin]

I personally like Eldar gameplay. They are really fitting to DoW2. I remember first times when DoW2 came out and everyone saying ; '' Dudeee! New Eldar is SICK maaaann !!! ''. This is the result of DoW1 to be honest I was really suprised eather. I still know some guys writing that : '' It seems Eldar became better this time. They even try to attack me with Banshees, but the result is obious. '' There are a few things I don't like about Eldar however.

FALCON
This tank was designed to be a transport but a better one with a higher prize. But it acts too good. It just damages everything with its pure lazer called thing from a long range, falls back quickly if damaged by AV and turns back to shoot and damages your squads drop by drop. Annoying, and it works. It as a bigger pain in T3 with energy shield up. Speed decrease while it is active is not a nerf even, it doesn't change anything. Falcon tank it too good to play against. Other transports in the hands of experianced players can be taken down but this thing? Can't even catch it !

So what do I want about Falcon? I have questions about it. First of all, why this tanks has an anti-everything weapon? '' It might be a transport but you pay higher prize, bla bla bla bla '' I don't accept my friend. A transport shouldn't chase my Dreadnought all day long and fall back without a serious scar when hitted by AV. Also I have problems with GK Rhino as you may remember but no one cared about my toughts at that time so I stoped talking about it and waited for your reactions. Btw, Falcon has 3 different weapons at the same time. I even saw someone who just bought 2 Falcons and used them as weapons. With later energy shields, we couldn't handle them.

Secondly, energy shield is a bigger problem than you can imagine. 1 energy = 5 hp. This thing starts with 100 energy and this upgrade adds up 500 hp, basicially doubles up a tanks health with only 35 power. Meanwhile, this thing can level up right? Yes indeed. At level 4, this vehicle has 150 energy and 666 hp ( for reasons of cource ) makes a total 1266 hp. Gentelmen, this tanks has more health than Mark of Nurgle Predator !!! 1266 vs 1225. Also, with medium amounts of micro, enough hit and run tactic, you can easly make this tank level 4. Pretty amazing isn't it? And maybe you forgot about it but let me remind you, this is a bloody transport vehicle. You know, smae class with Razorback and Wartrukk.

What do I want for Falcon then? Changing Pure Lazor damage type from Venom Cannon to piercing or plasma, just make it not-anti-vehicle please. For energy shield, please remove it, or give a huge nerf to it please.

FIRE DRAGONS

I like and support new changes with Fire Dragons. Btw, Fire Dragons are the best addition for Eldar in the Elite mod. Yes, I sitll can't knockback these guys with my ASM neither jump nor Merciless Strike, but I can handle this. However, they are going to be still a big potential for spams. And fire Dragon spam is waaaaaay too hard to deal with. No matter how much we ever nerf them, they are as scary as Melta Storm Trooper spam, of cource, they are more durable here. What I want is a prize to pay. You know, what a spamme can not want. They are too cheap to buy and very cheap to reinforce. An increased prize would be a total solution for spammers.

[Sturnn]

Fire Dragons - maybe population cap increase for them would also help

[Thunderhost]

My two cents (as a midlevel eldar FS player mainly)

Eldar is, as I see it, very intensive to play. You have to watch your squads positioning and overall health constantly. They rely heavily on upgrades to be effective, thus needing to invest in power quite early to be effective. This implies an issue as you're split between the need for power and the need to bar your opposition from the same. And early game, prior to T1.5 your options are heavily limited. This again makes your options for flanking, positioning/trapping limited. It is entirely possible to shut down eldar by focusing on their power.
As you've noted yourself the Eldar are heavily dependent on the shuriken platform, which is one of the least mobile units in their rooster. As a controlunit, I personally find that this also have implications for the playstyle of the race.

Webways - Now these are the facet of Eldar I love the most, but also the one that's most easily abused and shut down.
I find that versus most players worth their salt, webways are almost unviable as anything but a buffing platform. They get shut down immediately if you use them as flanking stations, which relegates them to the buff-role. And unlike RA tunnels, they're expensive and surrenders both global and xp to your opponent. Solution? A suggestion could be making them sort of droppod like. An ability with a cooldown, which spawns a webway for a limited amount of time perhaps??

Vehicles - I find that the rooster works quite well, having a good ratio between high damage/low durability. I'll accede your point about the Fire Prism, as it is a kind of a boring unit. On the other hand it needs babysitting, implying some tactical decisions if you are to keep it.
I don't think the energy shield is an issue, as the falcon does relatively low damage and the speed reduction is significant.

On a final note, Eldar are quite reliant on their abilities, which make them even harder to play with the many interruptions/bugs in the game. An example would be dealing with suppression with holofield and grenading. This could potentially involve Holofield-Fleet Of Foot-Grenade along with whatever else is happening, and should just one of these bug out/slow down/not function, then you're in a bind (with a DA squad in front of a suppressionteam).

These views are naturally completely subjective and seen from my level of experience.

[Lesten]

Very interesting thoughts. Glad to see you recognize what Eldar should be about.

A note on "anti-fun" gameplay. Eldar are supposed to use a lot of tricks and be able to strike hard in hit-and-runs and ambush attacks. These things are always going to be frustrating to fight against if you're caught off-guard, so in a way the Eldar are by design at risk from drawing anger from their opponents and honestly that's how it should be. The only way to make them more "fun" to play against is to remove their tricks and hard-hitting capabilities, but then they wouldn't be Eldar anymore.

Two things come to mind in Eldar gameplay as it is right now:
1. Bleed is one of the biggest concerns.
2. You can't take a straight-up fight, you have to flank or ambush and hit your opponents where they're vulnerable.
Both these things suit the Eldar lore very well. You really have to pick your fights and use your abilities well, as well as each unit in their respective roles... Just as it should be.

So generally I like Eldar in their current state, most of the units are fun to use and seem balanced enough. I guess there are some adjustments that could be made of course. I'll just mention a few things briefly, maybe it'll give you some ideas or confirm ideas you already have.

Webway Gates
My preferred solution to webways would be to make them unusable by non-Eldar (makes it more balanced in team games and fits the lore very well; the Eldar aren't going to allow others to use the webway). I don't see how they can be made equally valuable on all maps, they're always going to be better on large, wide maps. Perhaps make them cheaper or faster to build the closer you are to your HQ (if it's even possible)?

Fire Dragons
They're already getting a nerf, but if you want to take it further maybe reduce their speed slightly (0.5?) and give them regular fleet of foot instead of their current ability (they're strong enough without it anyway). Alternatively, make their damage more specialized vs vehicles and do less damage vs infantry.

Wraithguard
You're wraithbone idea sounds really good, would make a lot more fun to use. I rarely get it these days tbh. Another thing that would be nice (and a nerf) for this is if the spiritseer was required for the ability and that he spends the duration chanting/spellcasting. He could still move with the wraithguard but not shoot or fight in melee, and if he dies while doing this the wraithguard could take even more damage. (Come to think of it, I really like this idea, please consider it at least )
Their spiritseer warlock almost always dies first, making him a really risky purchase. If he was cheaper to rebuy or didn't die as easily it would make him more viable. And I don't think he needs the fancy warlock leap. He should be more like a Farseer than a Warlock.
Dire Avenger Exarchs shouldn't give wraithsight. (Do they still? I haven't played in a while.)

Dark Reapers
Sight increase with exarch and health buff will help, but not sure if it will be enough. Fluff-wise I imagine them advancing while laying down a barrage of fire from the reaper launchers. Fire on the move for them could help them and also add to the general mobility of the Eldar army. And actually I think it's these guys rather than Firedagons that should have knockback immunity.

Falcon
Is fine. I've asked for a weapon upgrade option before, but that's more because I want a fun option for it rather than something it needs. Perhaps make the AV weapon (the pulse laser) an upgrade and the default damage could be plasma or something instead?
As for the energy shield: one possible change would be to make the shield less effective (50-75% of current effectiveness?) but remove the speed decrease from the upgrade (or even increase speed or rotation). Would fit better to have a faster Falcon that's less tanky. Just don't remove the shield entirely, Eldar can lose stuff quickly enough anyway.
Could also be an idea to reduce its transport capabilities or rework it to a Wave Serpent (less weaponry but is more transport-oriented).

Fire Prism
Could be faster and more maneuverable sure. But it's pretty good as it is so it would need a nerf, and honestly I don't see it being worth it anymore if damage was reduced or knockback was removed, or if it was even more fragile. 135 power is a lot though...

Farseer
Just want to repeat some thoughts I've had before.
Rune Armor: reduce energy bonus to maybe 75-100. Psychic storm should retain dps but last for a slightly shorter time (so it's less lethal for both the units under it and the Farseer herself).
Mind War: needs to be more consistent with the Farseer being able to move or not while using the ability, and a better visual could be useful. A cool idea would be if instead of suppressing, both the target and the Farseer would be lifted into the air for the duration (the target would take the same damage as before). That would require some additional balance fixes though.

Howling Banshees
I like the leap instead of the chase, but the exarch almost always dying first is a considerable strain of the Eldar economy. Make her cheaper to repurchase or at least not die first somehow. I've always thought it was very un-Eldar-like for her to throw her life away so recklessly.

Dire Avengers
I know they're getting a cost reduction, and that's good, but if you want to keep their cost up a bit why not increase the cost of their aspect with 15 or so?

Actually I want to suggest another thing here: replace Seer Council with Striking Scorpions as a T3 melee units. I know it's been brought up before, but I was reminded of it when reading your post because I think they would fit the Eldar playstyle better: they're stealthy and quick, yet would retain the durability of the Seer Council. The SC are great and all but they're just straight up punchers and not particularly fun seeing as they have no activated abilities and don't really fit all that well into the Eldar roster IMO. Striking Scorpions would be a more unique unit, better differentiated from Banshees and could play a different role as a durable melee unit that strikes from the shadows.

• Infiltration
• Melee damage instead of power melee (we already have banshees for power melee damage anyway)
• Leap knockback like Seer Council (if that is considered vital) OR suppression or minor damage on charge (mandiblasters)
• Fleet of foot
• Heavy armor
• High HP
• Aspect upgrade (infiltration?)
• Purchasable exarch (possibly with additional weapon upgrade like a scorpion's claw)

(And they're pretty damn awesome. Lore-wise more likely to be fielded than Seer Council. We already have several seers and warlocks anyway.) But I don't want to shift the discussion to this, just putting it out there that I think it would be a suitable replacement.

[Lesten]

Very constructive.

But like I said, I don't want to shift the discussion to that in this thread. I simply suggested removing a unit that I don't think really fits the envisioned gameplay and design of the Eldar as described in the original post, and replacing it with a unit that would fit.

They're even in the foreground here!

[Caeltos]

Originally I had alot of concept for the Striking Scorpions, and I still think about the unit itself as of today. The core idea behind them is an option between going for pure-damage build, versus subtle-controlled melee units.

Pure-damage / fast-striking /low health etc = Banshees
Subtle / not as high damage / medium hp etc = Striking Scorpions

Essentially, it was the give the eldar a more 'flow' type of gameplay, where fights could be prolonged, instead of a 'Decisive Blow' where Banshees are meant to dictate the fights quickly.

[Atlas]

I'd only accept WG being more mobile if they took severe nerfs in their ability to kill everything on the field. FotM has been disastrous for IG. WG in general is pretty antithetical to what Eldar is about anyway, so it's a hard unit to make fit the theme.

For Eldar vehicles in general, I would be cool with rotation/turret rotation/acceleration buffs so long as dps gets hammered down too. Vehicle stupidity is one of the major balancing points for vehicles imo or else they would be crazy dominant. I would actually remove the shield off the Falcon entirely and replace it with some kind of phase shift, or even maybe a small warp "hop" to duck out of lascannon fire or something.

Webways need to be really nerfed imo. As it's been stated earlier in this thread, it's way too easy and gives you potentially way more reward for that 50 red. I would just increase the cost to 75 red, and maybe even add a small req/power cost to it as well. Your army shouldn't get entirely flanked because a farseer dropped a farsight+gate behind you.

Where I will really contend with the colleagues in this thread is that shuris are in no way a limiter to Eldar play. If anything, Shuris form the bedrock of Eldar play because they are so damn good. They already move faster than most setup teams, have access to perfect cover very easily in T1 and the Shuri Platform, being a die-last model with some unusual properties, already prevent some setup counters. To my knowledge, the Shuri platform(and D-Cannon) is the only setup team that can't have the weapon model be flesh hooked, for example.

If you really want to make Eldar be a more mobile race and so on, you need to encourage less setup play. Atm, there's no good reason not to go shuri heavy and form your offense around them.

[Oddnerd]

I always wanted to ask this but couldn't think of a good time to do so.

I always wondered why Relic decided to give wraithguard weapons that are effectively d-cannons instead of their regular wraithcannons. The fact that they do massive damage, have good aoe, and suppress makes them too easy to use as an a-move blob (which I agree goes against the spirit of the Eldar). Have you guys considered giving them weapons that more closely resemble their lore weaponry?

You mentioned that you didn't like that a single wraithguard volley could end a fight; I wonder if that problem could be solved by giving them weapons that only hit a single target for huge damage? In the original game they pack a whopping S10 AP2 (with no aoe) so they could be the eldar equivalent of a plasma gun. I don't know what damage type would be best .... plasma/melta/venom cannon.. etc might be suitable. They can still do respectable damage to vehicles and can win any straight up engagement, but with less of that FoTM feel that makes me hate them right now.

[Crewfinity]

Agreed with most of the above.

A couple of things I've noted (Not an eldar main, they're probably my worst race):

with the changes to banshees and rangers, shuricans have become even more internally unbalanced. the recent addition of suppression to rangers has help a bit, but shuricans just offer so much more control for less cost/micro. I wouldnt mind seeing their courage damage decreased or the modifiers tweaked, right now they are just so oppressive, especially with buffs like crack shot or guide. they allow eldar players to go entirely range oriented, with shuricans for control and DA's for damage, which will only get more emphasized next patch with cheaper DA's (in my opinion).

I think banshees in their current state are much less annoying than they used to be, but the nerf went a bit too far. Having them wipe your squad by chasing it clear across the map was frustrating, but to remove almost all of their retreat wiping potential really limits their role as a decisive finisher. I think if they were given a leap like the hormagants, instead of like stormboyz, they would be in a much better place. Still not having a melee charge prevents them from chasing for miles, but the damaging leap really does a lot to add in extra damage for a few seconds after a unit retreats.

I think in general that the ranged damage of the eldar compositions is getting to be a bit extreme. with the addition of high damage units like fire dragons and dark reapers, as well as the high dps of warp spiders and huge spike damage of wraithguard, its just really frustrating to try to deal with a huge ranged blob hiding behind perfect cover, with highly mobile suppression teams. even when you're able to make a push and get in their lines, grenades, warp spiders, and fire dragons can punish you for actually getting in close. some of this is going to be fixed with the FD changes next patch, but i would like to see a bit more emphasis on hit and run rather than being able to just focus down anything that comes near. Addition of striking scorpions as a T2 melee unit could help that a lot, to shift the compositional focus from all in on ranged damage to maybe sneaky/fast moving melee supported by autarch.


I also really like the aura mechanic, and I think that could be expanded on to make the eldar really exemplify their race. I dont want it to be too similar to synapse, but having more auras for more units, with a tradeoff of less raw stats, could help emphasize various squad synergies. Right now the only AOE auras I can think of are the seer council (15% received ranged damage decrease and 3 energy/s regen) and the avatar (suppression immunity, 30% ranged damage buff and received range damage decrease). Those are powerful auras, and rightfully so.

But maybe we could change up some of the T2 squads or exarchs to have AOE auras as well. dark reapers could do a little less damage but have a damage aura buff? just a shot in the dark but its something we could play around with to try to increase eldar reliance on inter-squad synergies. It could be differentiated from synapse in that its not as powerful, but there are no downsides like synapse bombs.


I think FoTM wraithguard are too powerful. I would be in favor of an overhaul of that unit: they get slightly increased speed, but no FoTM and their weapon damage is adjusted so that it fires more frequently but does less damage (like how the D-cannon was changed). It could even do DoT in an AOE, i wouldnt mind that. But the less absolutely punishing spike damage, combined with increased micro requirements for moving and firing would make them much less frustrating to play against imo. They could even have an AOE health regen aura!

Something that would also be cool would be an upgrade to give them the option to switch to melee weapons, like Slaughter CSM. I dont think it would be appropriate to have them be too powerful in melee, i'm thinking more along the lines of chosen CSM without the DoT, just a tanky unit that can soak up some melee damage.

[Forestradio]

I think in general that the ranged damage of the eldar compositions is getting to be a bit extreme.

this is a problem in general, not exclusive to eldar at all, why do you think the metagame is so dominated by ranged units?

there's too much anti-all weaponry in the game right now, on units that are no-brainer purchases in basically every situation regardless of what you're facing, and generally speaking the main factions that have this issue are gk chaos nids and (somewhat) eldar.

eldar design feels fine at the moment, some units are not desirable in the meta while some others are too desirable but that just requires balance tweaks not a general redesign, though if a redesign were to happen the #1 target would probably be wraithguard, and making them more sustainable/reliable and less burst damage oriented would probably improve their design, would be cool to see high lvl eldar players like Asmon, Adila, Hans, etc input on the current state of WG

Right now the only AOE auras I can think of are the seer council and the avatar.

autarch

but that's not a brainless anti-all unit so im not surprised that it was forgotten

[Kvn]

For what my opinion is worth, I don't think Eldar are currently in need of any major overhauls. There's some facets of the race that could be changed, but I personally feel they're in a decent spot as of right now.

I don't think the dependance on Shuri Platforms is an easy fix. With Rangers being nerfed as hard as they were, GWTs are pretty much mandatory in most matchups. You need them for control and to hold ground. Mobility doesn't mean much if your opponent is parked on your gen farm. While the static-esq play style might not fit lore wise, I feel that it's a necessary evil in order to maintain game balance.

Fire Dragons I have mixed feelings about. I still firmly believe that the current fear of them is unwarranted (SM have a good argument for it given that they don't have a strong counter to them though) but I still agree with some of the changes. In my eyes, they're a unit that is extremely difficult to balance with the way DoW II works. In the first game, they were a fairly bleed-intensive, dedicated AV unit, that traded off there highly specific role for being incredibly good at it. When they got in range of a vehicle, more often than not, it went up in flames. That kind of function was workable back then, but the different economies mean that it isn't an option here, so it feels to me like they'd fluctuate between being completely useless and being way too powerful. They weren't used prior to the recent buff, and I have a hard time seeing them used again afterwards now that their survivability is taking such a massive hit, so I'm of the mind that simply replacing them with something else wouldn't be a bad idea. I don't know how many people would take kindly to that, but it's not as though they fill a vital role. Their current functionality overlaps pretty heavily with Wraithguard, and, to a very small level, Banshees. Instead of trying to hit that exceedingly small target of having them perfectly balanced, it might not be a bad decision to swap them out for something different.

Of course, there's modeling, animations, and all that as limiting factors, as well as the difficulty of deciding which aspect to put in place of them and how the new unit would fit in, but it's a consideration at least.

I don't feel think the Falcon is in need of nerfs. In T2, it's an extremely fragile (only 500 hp, less than an upgraded Wartrukk) fire support platform and transport. It's damage is good without being overwhelming, and it's survivability is limited enough that, I feel, it needs something in the later tier if it wants to be functional. Regardless of how much effective hp it has, it's not as though it's toting a genuine tank canon (plus its Pulse Laser has a tendency to glitch out) so its T3 position is usually as a support/damage sponge rather than a pushing mechanism. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Eldar still need some tanky units in their roster, or they'd just get locked out of attrition fights that can sometimes be unavoidable, especially in team games. They've already got the most brittle T3 with two artillery pieces, a fragile one-of support melee unit, and a melee focused support super-unit.

On that topic, I think that removing knockback from Prisms would be a bad idea. There simply wouldn't be a reason to buy them anymore, no matter how agile they became as a tradeoff. Their damage isn't all that impressive on its own, and the main reason for buying one is as a way to hold ground and weaken an enemy push through disruption. I understand that it's frustrating to play against, but that's not a bad thing in and of itself. Harassment units aren't fun to play against, but they still serve an important role in the game, allowing players to come back into things so long as their micro is strong enough. Plus, Fire Prisms are very expensive. That 135 power on a race like Eldar is painful, especially when there are heroes like the Inquisitor and Kommando Nob who two-shot them with their respective AV weapons.

As far as the Wraithguard go, I don't think that they really need their Wraithbone ability buffed. Sure it isn't seen all that often given it's kind of a niche piece (there's usually better ways of healing them after all) but to give them movement while healing... well... as someone who plays IG as their secondary, that thought terrifies me. The FotM isn't all that bad given their nerfed damage, courage damage, speed, etc. as well as only 50% accuracy, but to be able to encroach while healing through the fire directed their way seems over the top. Unless they couldn't shoot while healing? Maybe I'm missing something, but it feels a bit too good. That said, I don't think their damage is in need of further nerfs. They're a decisive engagement winner if they get off a couple good volleys, but they don't often get off those volleys to begin with against a prepared opponent. Heck, I've seen games from both sides where Wraithguard don't get to shoot more than two or three times throughout the whole match just due to never being able to get into position.

That's my view of things anyway. Long story short, I feel Eldar are in a goodish spot, or nearly, at the moment. I just think that making them too dependent on pure mobility would be a step in the wrong direction. That kind of strategy revolves around the opponent making mistakes and overcommitting. If you're playing against a smart player, that would leave you in a really disadvantageous position if you didn't have disruption or durability to back up your army. They're still lore friendly enough as is, without compromising game balance.

[Lulgrim]

Atm, there's no good reason not to go shuri heavy and form your offense around them.

The option of upgrading an SCP into Brightlance is not insignificant either. Multiple SCPs used to be a gamble because of vehicles, but that’s not an issue any more.

[Ace of Swords]

Eldar are mostly fine and they definitely play different than other races, I think however that shees were fine before, the only really broken thing with the was buff stacking with the FS and Swift movement, anyhow, if not in T1, I think they should get their melee charge back, at least in T2, I really don't think that outside swift movement they were over performing (at least not in recent times).

If they don't get their melee charge back then revert the damage penalties they received a while ago against retreating units.



Also I gotta ask about this

feel the aspect of picking fights is way too much dependant on Webway Gates, and Webways are generally abit of a mix bag of fun & anti-fun mechanics to the game, allowing fast traversing over the map. Which makes it a burden when it comes to the factions performance on small, as well as bigger maps – be that both underperforming in some, and over-performing in others.

Are you honestly joking? In what map eldars are bad? Literally none that's the answer, if anything gates make them too good at moving around the map in the bigger ones, not only, gates where never the best thing about eldar mobility, that's FoF, which is also the ability that helps you bait engagements, open,close or avoid them, definitely not gates.

If anything, they are still too cheap and should go back to 75 red, I've said the rest about eldar In in my 2.4.2 thread.

[Oddnerd]

Atm, there's no good reason not to go shuri heavy and form your offense around them.

The option of upgrading an SCP into Brightlance is not insignificant either. Multiple SCPs used to be a gamble because of vehicles, but that’s not an issue any more.

On that subject - have you guys considered making plasma devastators an upgrade of normal devs? It would mean plasma devs would have a power cost, which anything that hurts vehicles ought to have.

[Caeltos]

Are you honestly joking? In what map eldars are bad? Literally none that's the answer, if anything gates make them too good at moving around the map in the bigger ones, not only, gates where never the best thing about eldar mobility, that's FoF, which is also the ability that helps you bait engagements, open,close or avoid them, definitely not gates.

No, I'm not joking. Why would I be?

Siwal Frontier for an ex, used to be a go-to map for counterpicking Eldar in 1v1s, and it favored Space Marines in that regard. Due to the Webways only really providing a single vp cap harassment. Ruins of Argus is another map that were picked for 2v2's to compete against eldar compositions, SM/Orc vs Eldar/X was probably the best counterpick matchup, and Eldar had little tools to deal with that map.

There's another 1v1 map that was played pretty extensively for 1v1 counterpicking Eldar, I forgot what it's called - but you'll know when I say, it has a power point in the middle, power in the south and 2x natural VP points that are extremely close to base. That map prolonged games into situations that didn't neccassarily favor Eldar either, because Webway Gates had a rough performance since you could quickly react to contested map points, since they are all based around the middle, whereas the only contested point of interest is 1x requisition point (That will force a very punishing retreat path)

I had an extensive interview with TASk3R about that map (The interview should be on Gamereplays.org) and we went into depths about it. The same principle is still applied today, since it's more more about the inherit map design conflicting with eldar theme.

I don't think it's neccassarily fair to compare the useage of FoF (Which is something a player can more proactively react to, due to energy gauge, and how the players manuever, if it's within vision range) whereas the Webway Gates are a tool that's not visible to the player, and it can be more difficult to read into the other players red energy consumption. It's something I could elaborate more on, but it's the factors of subtle vs visibility mechanics of the game.

[Dark Riku]

If they don't get their melee charge back then revert the damage penalties they received a while ago against retreating units.

Banshees already do 100% damage on retreat. That was reverted.

There's another 1v1 map ...

Outer Reaches.

[Caeltos]

Ah yes, that's the map.

[DandyFrontline]

Eldar are mostly fine and they definitely play different than other races, I think however that shees were fine before, the only really broken thing with the was buff stacking with the FS and Swift movement, anyhow, if not in T1, I think they should get their melee charge back, at least in T2, I really don't think that outside swift movement they were over performing (at least not in recent times).

If they don't get their melee charge back then revert the damage penalties they received a while ago against retreating units.



Also I gotta ask about this

feel the aspect of picking fights is way too much dependant on Webway Gates, and Webways are generally abit of a mix bag of fun & anti-fun mechanics to the game, allowing fast traversing over the map. Which makes it a burden when it comes to the factions performance on small, as well as bigger maps – be that both underperforming in some, and over-performing in others.

Are you honestly joking? In what map eldars are bad? Literally none that's the answer, if anything gates make them too good at moving around the map in the bigger ones, not only, gates where never the best thing about eldar mobility, that's FoF, which is also the ability that helps you bait engagements, open,close or avoid them, definitely not gates.

If anything, they are still too cheap and should go back to 75 red, I've said the rest about eldar In in my 2.4.2 thread.

No, no, no. Any changes but please - no melee charge for shees. Even with penalties shees just rape retreating units. Any changes, but not a melee charge

[egewithin]

If anything, they are still too cheap and should go back to 75 red, I've said the rest about eldar In in my 2.4.2 thread.

And that was one of the most annoying things back in the vanillia. 75 red is expensive to be honest. You need at least 2 gates to use webways. That means 150 red. '' Yeah, but those allows you to travel big distances in no time ! '' Here is a fact, it is very very easy to take down an webway gate. Once you see it with a detector, you can even chainsword it and take it down. So, my webways oftenly taken down and need to rebuild them. 75 red shows its effects at this point. If I spend all my red on those gates, I will never have enough red to use a nuke, or even drop an Autoarch. I used to place one webway in my base so I at least benefit from its ability, I prefered saving for nukes.

And webways are hard to place. Detection range is big, and I can't even find a cool place to build them in 3v3 maps. There is like 1 or 2 sneaky places I can use in Argent Shelf V2 for example. Of cource, there are bigger maps with much bigger spaces for me to use thanks to our map designers, no doubt on that. Secondly, one I use my Webway gate insade of enemy side, once they see me there out of nowhere, they start seeking for my gate, finding it and taking it down.

Webways doesn't deserve taht much cost I think.

[Lulgrim]

If I spend all my red on those gates, I will never have enough red to use a nuke, or even drop an Autoarch.

Well that’s why they have a cost to begin with (i.e. not free), eh?

[Ace of Swords]

If anything, they are still too cheap and should go back to 75 red, I've said the rest about eldar In in my 2.4.2 thread.

Wrong really, you only need 1 gate for it to be effective, no not at traveling, but the WL gate heal stacking in base makes for a ridiculously fast return to the battlefield, indirectly, the FS gate does the same granting + speed (and cloak but from the base it's irrelevant 99% of the times), the WSE gate is actually lacking, true, that could use a small buff to the energy regen, but it could also present ways to abuse the heavy gauge/DA shields if used on the battlefield so I'm not too sure.

So you are basically investing 75 red in the ability, something I always do no matter the game mode as soon as I can, it's just that useful and then you can put other gates anywhere on the map which can be even hard to kill considering you can simply spawn your whole army on them or quickly reach them through FoF.

And again no matter the game mode, you can place gates anywhere, even just placing them behind a shotblocker to "reinforce" your army constantly and buff/heal it(notable on the right side of the bot VP of argent shelf) or on a map like refinery you can place gates nearby your allies and constantly double people leading to wipes and simply impossibility to push or win any engagement (thank god people forgot about this, about a couple of years ago everyone was doing this and it was uncounterable since they placed the gates behind the small "mountains" in front of the bases).

It's simply you that's failing to use them properly, as far as 1v1 goes, tex in pretty much every game has eldar makes bordeline abuse of them, they are still OP at 50 red, what makes them "ok" right now is the fact that they give you a lot of XP so that the time you have to dedicate pretty much your whole army to destroying it is worth it.

Siwal Frontier for an ex, used to be a go-to map for counterpicking Eldar in 1v1s, and it favored Space Marines in that regard. Due to the Webways only really providing a single vp cap harassment. Ruins of Argus is another map that were picked for 2v2's to compete against eldar compositions, SM/Orc vs Eldar/X was probably the best counterpick matchup, and Eldar had little tools to deal with that map.

Wat, siwal is where WSE is king, it's a very wide map where FoF and gates reign, it also lacks shotblockers making rangers great, I can see when RB was a viable choice for SM be good there, sure, actually it was a must, but now with FDs and 100% FOTM BL? Basically any T2 purchase but DRs counter RB, it's not a viable choice vs eldar and with DA detecting + their ability of which I don't recall the name now they will easily wreck fully upgraded scouts in t2, while dominating T1 map control by running away with FoF.

I can agree on outher reaches, since shuries and rangers will have an hard time maneuvering, but it's not a bad map for eldar, it's a bad map for IG, but eldar can deal just fine by either constantly harassing top/mid vp and easily controlling bot power while playing conservative in T1 and then pushing hard in T2.

Notice that I'm talking about moving with eldar, because that's what the faction does, I don't think they are static at all like you are saying, a good eldar player knows where and when to go, if you fail at that you'll be bad at eldar, that's why often you should avoid direct confrontation in big engagement and focus more on gangbanging isolated units.

I had an extensive interview with TASk3R about that map (The interview should be on Gamereplays.org) and we went into depths about it. The same principle is still applied today, since it's more more about the inherit map design conflicting with eldar theme.

I'd like to see it if you have the link, however assuming it's old a lot of things have changed, so I'm not sure how relevant it would be nowadays, talking about ELITE games of course, it would still be true for retail.

I don't think it's neccassarily fair to compare the useage of FoF (Which is something a player can more proactively react to, due to energy gauge, and how the players manuever, if it's within vision range) whereas the Webway Gates are a tool that's not visible to the player, and it can be more difficult to read into the other players red energy consumption. It's something I could elaborate more on, but it's the factors of subtle vs visibility mechanics of the game

What I mean, gates are an extra, they won me a lot of 1v1 where I deserved to lose (And in those situations, unless you play WSE with phase shift and eldrich isn't saving you, considering also that you would need to be T3, there's really no better investment than spamming cheap 50 red gates in this case), but by constant decapping I bought myself enough time to wipe my opponent things or drain off his final VPs, what grants 99% of eldar's maneuvering capabilities is FoF, OPs spawned on your DA's ass? FoF away, big army coming towards you? FoF away and re-position, capping a point with your hero but nobs are coming at you? FoF to another VP, need to engage ranged units with shees? FoF towards them from an angle they aren't expecting, beginning of the game? FoF with your hero and have a faster grip on the map.

The examples are endless really.

[Caeltos]

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/portals.php?show=page&name=caeltos-interviews-task3r

There's the interview. It wasn't the complete interview either - originally it was just an IM between me and him. TASK3R was quite open about discussing things, and it became sort of an 'interview' in the end. For more clarification the interview itself, you can see my response in the thread further down below.

[Asmon]

The good ol' times of Eldar hit and run are long gone. I remember how it used to be, back in the days. Transports ambushes with WS haywire, shees running n' screaming, and running away. To flank with my WL to warpthrow enemy set-up teams into autarch barrage then rain down grenades in retreat. Harrassing with rangers killing models letf and right (alright that is not so missed nowadays). I had some much fun roaring on the battlefield with WL, shees and Autarch ready to slaughter any lone squad, crushing it to dust, and run away before the cavalry arrives.

I had a wonderful game, WL against Acra's RA on GTJ redux, in one GR tournament. He went T3 swarmlord and I got stuck in T2. And I kept baiting the SL to one VP, haywired him, then quickly fall back and regroup to the 2 remaining VPs, without trying to fight the SL because I couldn't. And SL never got under 90% hp, but I won despite having a 150ish vp deficit, precisely by picking my fights. Just as it is meant to be, pointy ears style.

Now Banshees have no melee charge, but they leap. And as I've said times and times before, it turned them from a sweet skirmish unit to an ok-ish melee one, not viable past T1 without a mandatory upgrade (that is poor design) and a costly exarch that dies pretty much every meaningful engagement. To use FoF to get into mele is both foolish because of the damage penalty, and vital for the range damage reduction. I sent a few philosophers meditate on this one.

Rangers, though arguably still viable in pairs, require too much investment in both micro and eco to be more efficient than shuris, and one who goes several rangers in competitive 1v1 will easily be genbahsed by vehicle in early T2.

DA are good. It was a good try in early elite to grant them FoF by default, but the ability in itself remained (speed increase, duration) and the idea died swiftly. Now we're trying to keep them vanilla as long as we can, while power is spent on more urgent matters. The tactical choices we ought to make, which results from this situation, benefits the intricacy of the game to me. Another revolution for DA might still be relevant.

Shuri are fine, but they're necessary to an excessive degree. It is the only reliable melee deterrent since several shees has never been working, and a good assurance in case of early enemy vehicle, which is always a good choice vs Eldar in general.

Onto the T2 units, I've always been in favour of coherence and units with well-defined roles. WS, Falcon and WL have been a thing for so long now, and I've never grown tired of them. There'd always been matches when one choice clearly felt better, without the others seeming irrelevant. Then WG and Autarch came out and were spammed like hell. It was cool and fresh, they started OP, got toned down, eventually settled into the tier. Those don't overlap, and it's fine if you wanna stay in T2 and buy several of them. As a matter of fact during this era I scarcely went T3.

WG felt deeply anti-Eldar with their slowness, short range and big hp pool. There were the one unit that didn't fit, but if it's just one that's more or less ok. Fotm helps for without it WG don't fire reliably. But their long wind-up is just as much to blame than their range. Since the spike damage is quite high atm and leads to anti-fun situations, I'd gladly try out a very short wind-up, with fotm or not, and something like half damage, retaining the raw DPS. And perhaps I'll need to resume targeting ground again. That might be ok. Your idea of healing and moving WG sounds worth testing.

Along the road in elite, you expressed the desire for more variety and did highlight a valuable concern, I'm talking about the lack of long-range anti HI damage. There were created the reapers. Just as WG, they came out odd, slow and without FoF nor fotm, but with good spike damage. I understood the reason for them to be, but I've never felt comfortable with the unit and it is even more the case now that their damage isn't dramatic anymore.

At about the same time you gave us the FD. I was neutral about them, for I hate melta squads which I think are OP in all circumstances, but then I had finally another unit that did fit into my army, with good mobility, and the same options that make WS good in every match-up, though not with the same tools. Now FD have been revamped. Total kb immunity was uncalled for imo, but you tried it, and now you're reversing it. Alright. I'm unsure about the rest. Those who cry about their opness have never looked at their hp. They certainly make a better answer than the remaining Eldar roster for the threats they were created to deal with, eg BC and DD rushes.

So here we stand, with so many unit choices in T2, huge overlaps and clear viabilty issues, and a T3 very expensive power-wise but not so appealing, especially considering Avatar's cost and duration of production.

I want Banshees, like this : https://youtu.be/OTjyO_FncE4?t=64 not like lesser asthmatic hormas.

Cheaper rangers?

A mobile army, something that WG and DR are at variance with.

Falcon with less spread damage and better manoeuvrability (indeed, as you said).

WL with something extra (not a stamping charge) that grants him the melee walker perk he lacks.

Autarch with a barrage that stops dealing this ridiculous tiny amount of damage, but deals real damage, or stuns for a significant duration, and cost 120-ish red. Her jump, though with a larger AoE, is still not enough. More hp would be great. Maybe fusion gun in T2.

A coherent T2, squad-wise (I let vehicles aside). Perhaps a unit needs to go. That's what I'd do, but I know you put great time and effort into bringing these into life.

A better economy leader-wise. I don't want stupid last-to-die mechanism. What can't we have an upgrade tied to the first purchase of the leader that grants the same leader for a reduced cost? It still wouldn't be so elegant to have two upgrades for the same thing, and people should be careful not to buy the more expensive once the first leader is dead, but that would be a start. For shees, and WS. Across other races too.

More hit and run in T3. With a better SC (witchcraft abilities, infiltration...) and some tweaks to FP if you like, though I'm very doubtful about the non-kb thing.

TL;DR >> Make Eldar OP Cael cause I've not heard Riku whine in a good long while now and it worries me. For his own sake.


I'm watchin ya.

[Ace of Swords]

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/portals.php?show=page&name=caeltos-interviews-task3r

There's the interview. It wasn't the complete interview either - originally it was just an IM between me and him. TASK3R was quite open about discussing things, and it became sort of an 'interview' in the end. For more clarification the interview itself, you can see my response in the thread further down below.

Well considering it's from the CR era I can't comment on it since I haven't played the Xpac, still interesting to see what the balance problems were at the time

[Hermione]

People have probably seen me online a bit, I mostly play with friends but have done quite a few 3v3's etc...


I love Eldar, LOVE THEM. But I don't play them often, I feel like Eldar players have to work twice as hard for half as much payout. Eldar is a high risk high reward faction , But I feel like generally the risk outweighs the reward.

We are supposed to be the fast/nimble/hit/run faction, but we are the most power reliant faction in the game so if we power bash , we in turn will get bashed back (more than likely) And we lose on that trade because we have no place to dump our rec tier 2.

SM have plasma devs, GK's have Purgations, IG have Storm troopers etc..

So assuming an even tier 1, those factions are ahead of us heading into tier 2 if we both got some bashes in.


On Dark Reapers : Squishy, not super long range, can't 1v1 many units, I feel like standard tacs and other like units can just man up on them. Seems like a wierd unit that's really hard to utilize.

Fire Dragons do what they do there's been enough talk about them and are being changed.

As for commanders I feel like WSE is just mobile wargear platform (nice to blink in for setup teams), his damage isn't the best vs anything but light infantry. Farseer is great, Warlock seems a bit underwhelming and needs some more synergistic wargear options, he feels like a differently flavored farseer and not enough of a combat commander.

(Unrealistic side note: Would love Autarch to be the 'offense' commander for eldar, would be just fantastic fluff wise.)

Like many have said Eldar T3 is pretty damn underwhelming, dcannons are very reasonable and seem pretty balanced especially considering Eldar have no T2 artillery option. Fireprisms are riddled with problems, and need CONSTANT micro because of squishiness (maybe they should get a holofields upgrade too?) Avatar is fine as an 'ultimate unit'. As other people have mentioned an entire squad of highly trained psykers having zero abilities is pretty sad aka seer council.


TL:DR I'm pretty new, and not the most skilled but I feel like Eldar is too hard to play and the risk investment is not worth the reward.

My overall Eldar thoughts (keep in mind this is from a fairly inexperienced player).

As a race they are extremely power dependent, which makes them need to defend gens more than other races, which means our mobility isn't as valued since they know they can win in a genbash exchange.
Being commited to defending gens hurts our mobility.
Furthermore we have no reliable way of genbashing in tier one besides committing our whole damn army to smacking and shooting the gens with our weenie guns, which is really frustrating.

No rec sink in tier 2 hurts our ability to make a comeback after a rough T1, and our T1 is arguably the most power starved of all. Guardians NEED plasma grenades, we NEED setup teams, banshees NEED aspect to compete with dedicated melee squads , Rangers are a very versatile option but aren't good as a single unit, and in pairs as others have said hampers your AV come Tier 2. Eldar pathfinders are the best in the warhammer universe and used to have reasonable chances at glances in tabletop, they like many other eldar units are walking abilities and don't have solid combat abilities out of the box making eldar the most micro/power/skillshot based of any faction.

Lastly the impact of many of our globals are geared towards utility and have very small impact to a game, I have a hard time winning T2 fights vs a noxious cloud and other angry globals by utilizing my own.
*edits*
one last thought, as many have said our reliance on setup teams to actually able to take/win engagements is the opposite of being a mobile faction >.<

[Asmon]

(Unrealistic side note: Would love Autarch to cast Stupefy on enemy units, paralyzing them for a duration)

Fixed it for you witch.

[egewithin]

And we lose on that trade because we have no place to dump our rec tier 2.

SM have plasma devs, GK's have Purgations, IG have Storm troopers etc..

So assuming an even tier 1, those factions are ahead of us heading into tier 2 if we both got some bashes in.

Wait, your T2 is not depended in heavy req right? If you both have same bash, you both spend same req for gens. Those units are heavly req based and that should be a problem for enemy, that should make the other factions complain about your T2, why are your complaining about yours?!! Also, all T2 stuff is highly power costed exept Tyranids. They are punished in T3 however.

As other people have mentioned an entire squad of highly trained psykers having zero abilities is pretty sad aka seer council.

AKA Eldars best melee squad
100% pure power melee squad with an amazing leap into combat
Has tons of health takes AGES to kill a model of them
Gives passive energy regeneration and damage resistance,( combine this resistance aura with Autarch = 30% resistance = 3 Tzeentch Shrines effect )
Who still asks for an ability? They are already the most balanced and beatiful thing in the entire game!

[Forestradio]

A better economy leader-wise. I don't want stupid last-to-die mechanism. What can't we have an upgrade tied to the first purchase of the leader that grants the same leader for a reduced cost? It still wouldn't be so elegant to have two upgrades for the same thing, and people should be careful not to buy the more expensive once the first leader is dead, but that would be a start. For shees, and WS. Across other races too.

this would be something worth trying out in 2.5 imo, for all squad leaders, something like 50-75% of the initial leader cost would be appropriate

squad leaders have never felt more cost effective than permanent upgrades (which don't add on to the squad's upkeep or take up population i might add) so why is it that they cost so much over the course of a game by having to rebuy them? that power drain is pretty severe especially in the late game when upgrades are quite expensive.

it also adds an unnecessary element of rng, if a melee walker/melee hero engages the squad leader straight off it can lead to bleeding a model worth 90/25 (shee exarch) vs a model worth 35 req (shee model)

not to mention it would nerf sniping abilities which require 0 skill and are about as anti-fun as it can get (but apparently sniper scouts and rangers killing models was too broken and had to be removed...)