Eldar Design notes & questions

[Lulgrim]

A better economy leader-wise. I don't want stupid last-to-die mechanism. What can't we have an upgrade tied to the first purchase of the leader that grants the same leader for a reduced cost? It still wouldn't be so elegant to have two upgrades for the same thing, and people should be careful not to buy the more expensive once the first leader is dead, but that would be a start. For shees, and WS. Across other races too.

From the technical point of view upgrades like that can appear in the same slot with one hidden and one shown according to whether the unit is tagged with the initial upgrade. That’s the easy part.

This does naturally lead into the concept of even having squad leaders reinforce at standard model cost once purchased at a higher price initially. The balance implications escalate a bit, however… Although at the same time the effect would be spread somewhat evenly across different factions.

[Cyris]

Would it be possible to have the leader reinforce at a different value then normal models? Or be re-purchasable for a reduced value in field (Like LG)?

For those who didn't know, LG's retinue works the way I wish all leaders did. After the initial cost is paid (let's say 85/10 for the Sergeant) it costs less then this to re-purchase him if he dies (I don't know the specific numbers). I think this does a wonderful job of keeping leader sniping as a viable tactic, while making re-purchasing less brutal.

[Lulgrim]

Of course it’s possible, how would LG have it otherwise…

[Cyris]

Of course it’s possible, how would LG have it otherwise…

Honestly, cause he's a commander not a unit. I don't know how the code is setup, but it would not surprise me if they worked fundamentally differently in some ways. Glad to hear this isn't the case!

[Laplace's Demon]

There are well known things that eldar struggle against, and it seems mostly due to a lack of options, in my view. Eldar struggle against turrets in hard-to-flank positions due to NO flame weapons (Warlock ability excepted). Lack of flame also forces anti-swarms efforts to be GWT dependent, which also means eldar isn't mobile.... like they should. Total lack of long range snaring AV also makes eldar VERY vulnerable to melee walkers. FD help with this b/c they can actually do damage to compensate for the walkers freedom of movement, but with new nerfs... idk how well they'll do going forward. Not to mention the instantaneous bitching you will summon these days by trying to counter that dreadnought rampaging in your lines :/

I've asked before to add eldar jump infanty to help be aggressive and to counter turrets/ setups without praying for a wraithlord/ wraithguard in t2. Swooping hawks in T1 with some upgrades in t2 to help against heavy armour would remove the need for dark reapers (maybe bump to t3 and buff), while also maintaining mobility and allowing more aggression in t1 where eldar is VERY static right now. Im not asking for ASM, relax. Higher model count, lighter armour, lower cost, range damage focus with melee upgradable leader that can upgrade to get haywire nades or something, and t2 option upgrade to help against heavy armour. Sounds good to me.

Lastly: please... for the love of khaine, don't remove fireprism knockback. People rarely use them anyway... how would removing the one thing they do well make anyone want to use them more? How about lower AV damage slightly but add snare?? Fire prism AV already sucks compared to competitors in-class, and eldar desperately need some kind of long-range snare (and don't try to tell me suicide-spider haynade attempts are good enough. Just don't)

[Spartan717]

There are well known things that eldar struggle against, and it seems mostly due to a lack of options, in my view. Eldar struggle against turrets in hard-to-flank positions due to NO flame weapons (Warlock ability excepted).

In order to deal with turrets, you can simply use warps spiders to teleport in and engage the turret in melee to disable it. Alternatively you can use fire dragons (who have good suppression resistance), rangers (who have superior range), wraithgaurd or vehicles to deal with them.

I've asked before to add eldar jump infanty to help be aggressive and to counter turrets/ setups without praying for a wraithlord/ wraithguard in t2.

Technically, eldar do have jump troops in the form of warp spiders, warp spider exarch and the autarch.

[Adeptus Noobus]

In order to deal with turrets, you can simply use warps spiders to teleport in and engage the turret in melee to disable it. Alternatively you can use fire dragons (who have good suppression resistance), rangers (who have superior range), wraithgaurd or vehicles to deal with them.

Rangers are not equipped to deal with turrets. The correct way to use them is to place the holo-field in front of the turret and let Banshees run in and kill it or let Wraithguard close in to destroy it. Warp Spiders could take it down but normally your enemy would play around your turret to prevent such a thing from happening.

[Deflaktor]

Lastly: please... for the love of khaine, don't remove fireprism knockback. People rarely use them anyway... how would removing the one thing they do well make anyone want to use them more? How about lower AV damage slightly but add snare?? Fire prism AV already sucks compared to competitors in-class, and eldar desperately need some kind of long-range snare (and don't try to tell me suicide-spider haynade attempts are good enough. Just don't)

I agree. I had a game recently where I had to deal with two nob squads. If not for the Fire Prism knockback, I honestly have no idea how to deal with that.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I agree. I had a game recently where I had to deal with two nob squads. If not for the Fire Prism knockback, I honestly have no idea how to deal with that.

• Rune Armor
• Timefield
• Ghosthelm
• Gravitationfield
• Entangling Web
• Phase Armor
• Warp Throw
• Ethereal Slash
• Shuriken Plattforms
• Dark Reapers

[KanKrusha]

What I am reading from the above posts could be addressed by:
1. Give rangers a tier two upgrade (leave them weak as they are now in tier 1 but stronger tier 2 and 3)
2. Remove wraith guard to improve race mobility
3. Reduce melta damage or accuracy against HI and SHI (reduce the anti all nature of melta guns not just fire dragons)
4. As discussed, make squad leaders reinforceable

[Hermione]

What I am reading from the above posts could be addressed by:
1. Give rangers a tier two upgrade (leave them weak as they are now in tier 1 but stronger tier 2 and 3)
2. Remove wraith guard to improve race mobility
3. Reduce melta damage or accuracy against HI and SHI (reduce the anti all nature of melta guns not just fire dragons)
4. As discussed, make squad leaders reinforceable

Love love loveeee #1. It really plays towards eldar's strengths and fluff.


#2 - It's a strong unit no doubt about it , but it doens't feel super eldar'y. I'd love if they had a melee variant =p
#3 - Nerf fire dragons and put them into an AV role and make dark reapers actually be able to take on HI. (they have 48' range and power armor in tabletop!!! and yes i'm fully aware its not tabletop but units should atleast resemble what they are based off of.
#4 - good quality of life change that doesn't hurt/help any faction more than others.

[Kvn]

Removing Wraithguard would be too extreme of a step. Mobile or not, they play an important role in the Eldar lineup, both due to their killing power and durability. There's more to the Eldar race than just being fragile but fast.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Dark Reapers already outrange almost any HI unit (apart from themselves since they are HI) and do increased damage vs HI as well. They don't need more buffs vs HI.

[Thibix Magnus]

Ok. I have been dreaming about this post for a long time, never dared myself… here are a few short thoughts (wall of text incoming).

From mid-level Farseer main, been playing since the first dow2, though occasionally.

A. Design

The Eldar style, from my understanding of the lore, actually combines several definitions that are not always naturally matching together:

- 1. Hit and run tactics: require speed AND damage. Reducing damage as compensation for speed is I think a bad direction as they need to destroy something quickly before the enemy counterattacks. Given the HP or numbers other factions can deploy, they need their current dps. Another trade-off should be found.

- 2. Fight only the winning fights: another Eldar trait. Here setup teams, WG and shields are fine with lore, typically for ambushes. Another option is to use technology to kill from afar with superior range. Avoid any loss. This is why charging banshees were key to most compositions, because if you give up ground while avoiding fights all game, those you risk committing to need to bring a big return by securing squad wipes.

- 3. An army of specialists: every squad type is better at their tasks than in other factions but they need a skilled commander to work together. Again, WG here are not un-eldar. They are the dissuasion for stupid blobby a-move ranged fights.

- 4. Few in numbers (leading to point 2.). High costs (thus 270 req DA, meh…) and pop. Can be at odds with the 3) specialist trait as they need a lot of different specialists in a balanced army.

Of course a game, as an adaptation, doesn’t need to match these points absolutely but needs to reach a good immersion for the players. Maybe I’m too critical because I main and love Eldar, but I feel less immersion with them than with other races. Maybe because of DoW2’s choices, or maybe because it is naturally harder to create immersion with these 4 background points.

Tyranids with their speed, numbers and pressure create a perfect feeling. The slow and unstoppable Terminators give the player an excellent feeling. The noisy and brutal ork tactics, and so on for every race, I feel this was always a beautiful achievement for this game. But I feel something is not there for Eldar. Only in some situations with some match ups can I get the Eldar feeling, fast, precise and deadly, it usually involves 2 Banshees and Autarch but sadly melee is not usually rewarding for Eldar. Actually I find sad that shees are the only early unit in the game considered un-viable in pairs, meaning the Eldar styles do not seem very diverse in the meta.

B. Vehicles

The priority for me is to finally make work in this game the Obviously Fast Eldar Tanks. Really, it is my dearest dream since DoW2 and I’m quite happy it was brought here… I think the Eldar player deserves this immersion and grav vehicles are core to it, these beautiful tanks performing fast flanks, getting into position behind a Baneblade, land a few shots on rear armor before it can rotate, then disappear, but paying dearly any mistake in that move. How fantastic and fitting that would be.

Taking the case of a jump for eldar tanks, Dow1 style. How to make it balanced ? I can try some amateur words, hopefully it means something for pro game analysts. As I said I don’t think speed vs damage is the correct trade-off for Eldar changes, they desperately need this dps, as well as the KB utility. More generally permanent changes to the current state can be dangerous for balance. I can thus only imagine a jump upgrade, and try to make it internally balanced.
Internally balancing an upgrade would mean make it risky. The trivial trade-off would be the cost. Probably not refined, but valid for Eldar as the initial cost is already high, and tanks have very low HP and are already a risky purchase. Refining a bit, the jump upgrade could also have an active risk associated. Imagine the FP or falcon has to turn and face the jump destination for a few seconds while the reactors accumulate power, while deactivating weapons for the jump duration. It is an extremely risky escape mechanism as you expose rear armor so you have to time it perfectly. It does not add anything interesting for a frontal assault. The only good scenario is for a flank, to get into an advantageous flanking position or deliver a transported squad where it is exactly needed.
(if not a jump, could be a permanent speed increase but only frontal, maybe even a strong decrease on backwards speed, so the effects would be similar. DoW2 campaign portrayed fast FP with gorgeous moves IIRC, so everything is already in the code?).

Instead of additive (no trade-off with other traits, but risky use), it can be two branching upgrades starting from a cheaper version, ending up with two different tanks, the current one or the fast one, the 2nd with a lower attribute. I find this option less elegant though, but it doesn’t break the existing option.

More thoughts
A faction that relies on picking winning fights will ALWAYS, by design, get on the nerves of the opponent. This is why I ended up quite upset with... people being upset about Eldar trickery. All this talk about toxic units like banshees or “gaytes” made me wonder about the causes of toxicity, and if half of it could come from some opponent players whose only notion of fun is a gorgeous messy massacre with two A-moving armies colliding

Finally, part of the immersion I felt at the beginning was relative to the Tier progression. I remember a strong immersion back in CR, not that much about a constant hit and run, but rather trying to survive and rat all the way to T3, which was the most feared T3 at the time. It was like, I tried to survive all the game, I lost most of my fights but managed to spare the lives of my warriors, and now at last you will see the full might of the Old Ones. Better time field, avatar 1-shooting tanks, and most of all, not so many strong T3 units on the other side. Maybe faster tanks could help.

As a general thought I would love to see Eldar moving towards another type of micro, rewarding more good moves, positioning and situation judgement, and less about superfast accumulation of abilities.

Don't know if this finds some echoes for experienced players. Have more to say about specific units but … yeah.

[PhatE]

My biggest gripe with Eldar currently is the reliance on Aspects to do anything useful. In my opinion this makes Eldar heavy T1's a rarity comparatively speaking. If Eldar do heavy T1's then a lot needs to be sacrificed to match the speed that the other races can do them. It's namely the reason why I do aspectless T1's and even going into T3 banshees are still without a leader and without an aspect. But it's also the reason why I do ranger builds instead. They're a unit worth upgrading these days. Leaders dying left and right as well as first, repurchases being ridiculously expensive. Most times it's "why would I bother with getting them if they don't provide the longevity that you need per game."

I too feel like the race is way too static and they're boring to play as if you are forced to be static.

For the WSE, shurikens are a must in I would say every MU. It's nearly always required to have banshees and shurikens.

I haven't really played the warlock for a really long time but with all the practise matches that I had with Hans and he did DA Banshee DA whatever next made things pretty clear that that build didn't work very well and that you get reduced to playing the shuriken game.

The only commander that's worth doing DA Banshee DA is the Farseer. She has way more flexibility when it comes to variety and her wargear is really good for making that build work. Plus having guide as a default is such a boon to actual fights.

The race is also incredibly upgrade centric. Eldar aren't particularly good for the early game. They're like Whiskey that gets better over time. The start can be absolutely awful depending on the map, mid game it starts getting pretty good and by late game if all is going well then you have a very prominent T3.

If we can do away with platform based games and more emphasis on the movement of the race outside of gates then it would be more entertaining and probably open up a bit more of a dynamic for Eldar players to explore.

[Lesten]

Gonna chime in again now after reading through this thread. Overall it seems like Eldar should have more mobility and hit-and-run capabilities... but at the expense of what? Lowering damage? That's opposed to their ideal design. Lower durability? That would make the bleed unmanageable. Higher cost? That would put them too far behind other factions and they're already pretty expensive.

Had some additional thoughts about specific units that have been mentioned in this thread. I'll try to keep it brief.

Webway gates
Will always be tough to balance. It will always be annoying to have an army pop up behind you, but like I said in my first post and Thibix said in his (he made a good post), stuff like this is what Eldar is about and removing these tricks will make them into something else. If we are to discuss gates, it should be their purpose. Is it transport or is it backline support? Should you be able to get armies to the other side of the map for a quick raid or should gates be used to reinforce a static defense?
• Right now, they're used for their unique ability (like Ace mentioned). You have to place them near your frontline, not too far back or too far forward. Transport is important but somehow secondary.
• It's very difficult to place an offensive gate. With how slow they build now you have to force your opponent off completely unless you want him to spot the gate being built immediately. And even if the enemy don't spot it, it's a one-time deal. Once you use it, it'll be taken down quickly.
• I'm totally against increasing the red cost of webways. Maybe, MAYBE if we reduced the cost of the autarch.

Shuriken platforms
A necessary evil I suppose. Eldar NEED it to defend points. All the mobility in the world won't help you if you can't hold your power and VPs. I don't think it should be removed or changed too much, but it would be nice with other options that made it less mandatory.

Rangers
• Agree with what has been said, Rangers work best in pairs (to actually deal damage and suppress), but that's a huge power and micro investment in T1 that will leave you vulnerable in T2 (compared to what a shuriken gives you). But obviously holo-field and kinetic shot are still awesome even you only have one Ranger.
• T2 upgrade for them would indeed be interesting.
• I would like them to have a shorter tear-down speed. They shoot pretty quickly now but the tear-down plus set-up time is much longer than their rate of fire (it seems), so they can't really utilize their true dps unless the enemy just stands there and takes it. (Maybe true for scout snipers as well, not sure.)

Wraithguard
Eldar need the slower, sturdier units too. Not all of their units need to be fast and fragile.
Wraithbone: I assumed that with the proposed change the WG would only be able to move with it activated, not shoot. It would help with them be more of the unrelenting threat they should be.
Damage: • Their burst damage could stand to be lowered I guess, if people feel strongly about it. But give them something else to compensate for it if so.
• Someone suggested removing their AOE. I'd say no to that, Eldar don't really have any other AOE in T2. But if their AOE radius was reduced it would be pretty fun with a weapon upgrade that gives them a flamer weapon (I haven't played tabletop in like 12 years, but I think they actually have something like that nowadays), but that flamer weapon would have to do good damage to pretty much everything or it would never be worth getting.

Fire Prism
Agree with the others, remove the knockback and you might as well remove the unit. But if you want to reduce the annoyance-factor of them (and that might actually be a good idea to do), how about this:
• Reduce rate of fire for their main gun (i.e. fewer knockbacks) (at least for spread shots)
• Increase damage SLIGHTLY (lower DPS total)
• Increase their turret rotation speed so that it doesn't misfire as often when turning
• Maybe also increase their rotation and/or speed
• Maybe improve their hull-mounted shuriken (make it a shuriken cannon or something)

Howling Banshees
• Keep leap instead of charge. Definitely. But maybe the leap could do some minor damage if it needs a buff.
• I agree with everyone: cheaper repurchase for the Exarch (and squad leaders in general). It's not rare to spend 75-100 power on banshee exarchs alone.
• Wouldn't mind an ability that helped them do hit-and-run attacks better without losing too many models. Because as it is now, like Asmon said:

To use FoF to get into mele is both foolish because of the damage penalty, and vital for the range damage reduction.

[KanKrusha]

While Banshees are one of the coolest units they are also one of the most in-fun to play against. If they could be "fixed" it would greatly help the fun aspect of the game, much more for lower skill than higher skill players.

This is because banshees epitomise one of the non-fun mechanics of the game which is melee kills in retreat. In a game about squad preservation banshees are a problem because they tend to trap squads in melee. Combined with their fast chase they cannot be escaped. This means that instead of melee being a core part and a fun part of game play, one player needs to continually avoid it.

Where the eldar player is of higher skill than the other player (who lacks the anticipation to avoid melee) banshees exponentially increase the winning margin; so that what would have been a loss anyway becomes a terrible crushing defeat and no fun.

The features that help banshees do this are:
- their high chase speed; removing charge is to help this
- their high model count which means one model can stop to kill while the rest of the squad chases and gets more kills
- formation which allows the squad to be spread across the map while chasing and killing
- lack of sync kills in tier one which means banshees can get disproportionate experience for going into tier two
- high model count so multiple specials tying up a squad (a good feature)
- high model count causing path blocking and trapping squads when they start to retreat.

IMO good flanking should be rewarded with model kills (fun) not squad wipes (un-fun).

So, what Might help is reducing the squad count by one while preserving current total squad health and damage. On the other hand catachans went down and up in model count
In retail so maybe it wouldn't work

[Ace of Swords]

While Banshees are one of the coolest units they are also one of the most in-fun to play against. If they could be "fixed" it would greatly help the fun aspect of the game, much more for lower skill than higher skill players.

This is because banshees epitomise one of the non-fun mechanics of the game which is melee kills in retreat. In a game about squad preservation banshees are a problem because they tend to trap squads in melee. Combined with their fast chase they cannot be escaped. This means that instead of melee being a core part and a fun part of game play, one player needs to continually avoid it.

Where the eldar player is of higher skill than the other player (who lacks the anticipation to avoid melee) banshees exponentially increase the winning margin; so that what would have been a loss anyway becomes a terrible crushing defeat and no fun.

The features that help banshees do this are:
- their high chase speed; removing charge is to help this
- their high model count which means one model can stop to kill while the rest of the squad chases and gets more kills
- formation which allows the squad to be spread across the map while chasing and killing
- lack of sync kills in tier one which means banshees can get disproportionate experience for going into tier two
- high model count so multiple specials tying up a squad (a good feature)
- high model count causing path blocking and trapping squads when they start to retreat.

IMO good flanking should be rewarded with model kills (fun) not squad wipes (un-fun).

So, what Might help is reducing the squad count by one while preserving current total squad health and damage. On the other hand catachans went down and up in model count
In retail so maybe it wouldn't work

I find squad wiping to be very fun actually.

Now, it's obvious that an high skill player will wreck a low skill player, that isn't exclusive to shees, it can happen with ASM,hormas,sluggas,tics,Kmarines etc, you have ways to predict where he will come from, you have the possibility to babysit your units and slow down/KB/suppress or w/e the faction you are playing tools are to stop retreat killing, it's all about knowing when to retreat and how to do it, really nothing to do shees themselves, especially now that they are rather bad at retreat killing, pretty much any other dedicated melee unit is better at it then them right now.

[BloatedChamp]

Hi Caeltos.

I love the direction and vision you have for the eldar race.

I want to present to you my brainstorm for Dark Reapers to help build on what you have written. I am not using factual dmg values or game mechanics for my reasoning. I just go by pure feel of how it plays. This means that it will be very subjective but hopefully interesting as well.

I took from your post that you want the dark reapers to be about positioning, valuable lives and hard hitters.

I played a few games with this new unit and I have to say, they feel like upgraded dire avengers(not by stats and damage values). But by how the squad feels to play.

Instead, I would love to see Dark Reapers play like Rangers.

- Have a short set-up/tear-down. (This makes them feel bulky and makes positioning essential to their play-style.)
- Come with only 3 models, no leader/exarch (This makes them valuable with fewer models)
- Standard sight range, but long weapon range. ( They will need to rely on being supported to reach their potential, will explain below)
- Maybe even have melee resist like devs.

Essentially they will seem like rangers but play like Auto-cannon havocs.(Aesthetic, not damage)

They will work great with Rangers. Rangers can grant the missing sight radius bonus and provide cloaking. This also lets Rangers be useful past t1.

Falcon/webway support will also really help this play-style and allow for mobility and increasing the sight radius in some cases.

This supports your vision for a hard-hitting infantry, that is about positioning and is valuable protect. On top of that, It adds a different play-style to eldar that is all about controlling the battle from a distance. With shuriken platfroms, reapers, d-cannons and rangers.

What do you guys think?

Thanks.

[Cyris]

This thread is awesome. Thankyou so much for making this Cael, I do hope you make more design discussion posts like this. While sometimes parts of this community can be toxic and negative, I believe that we all want a balanced, thematic and fun game. I hope I can add some value to this discussion.

Some perspective first. I'm not a great player (too old, in bad timezone, have job/wife/baby baking so can't game as much as I want) but I think I've managed to become at least the top of mid tier. For various reasons, I started a quest around two years ago to main every race in DoW2. I started as SM way back, and have slowly gone through each in turn, playing until I felt competent with the race, usualy playing in at least one tournament with them (including a 6 month stint as Random). I mention this, because I believe it gives me a lot of impartiality when it comes to balance concerns. And as luck would have it, I switched to Eldar about a month ago! I have long considered Eldar the hardest and most micro intensive race in DoW2, and so far I can report that this is proving to be true. IG are a close 2nd, perhaps even tied if you have the balls to play double sent (I do not). As such, they kept getting backburned by me in favor of playing easier races (like GK!)

In short, my experience as playing Eldar come only from 2.4.2, and is not super deep. I'd say around 100 matches in the last month and a half, including the MRT. I don't really feel the my opinions on Eldar balance are strong, so I've not really shared them much yet. I'm only doing so now cause this seems like the time to do so! By contrast, by the end of my GK stint I was very comfortable expressing my thoughts, and now that I recently finished IG I'd not be hesitant to talk about them. But this is Eldar time...

So, caveats aside, here goes.

How do you feel the Eldar gameplay feels at the moment? Does it currently do justice to the Eldar themes?
My impression of Eldar gameplay is that it is to have bleed prone, high damage units with a lot of tricky special abilities. This, combined with above average mobility, forces a very hit-and-run style gameplay. Fighting wars of attrition will mean you lose, and generaly full army vs army fights won't go your way (generaly from a lack of unit synergy). Instead of fighting these losing wars, Eldar players must pick fights cautiously, spike down isolated enemies with damage or cheaty abilities. Behind this, Eldar have some static defensive plays that allow them to hold key points, like gen farm or an important VP.

My experince playing Eldar mostly matchus up with this. I spend a lot more time picking the right fights as Eldar, and things go downhill fast if my opponent can group up and applying genfarm pressure. If my side capping game gets behind, then I'm in massive trouble. Eldars ability to bunker up and wait till they get proper compositions works, but getting behind on map is the begining of the end. Some nasty webway tricks can get you back into almost any match, but more experienced players are waiting for this. Webways are often better for holding positions then flanking as a result.

I also think the "dying race, past former glory" is a big aspect of Eldar - so much of what used to be game breakingly awesome in their favor is long gone. I didn't play as Eldar back in the day, but so many of the toys that used to seem oppresivly powerful when fighting against them have been toned down for the sake of balance and reduced toxisity, but not always replaced by enough to compensate. This is admitedly an incredibly hard race to balance. A race that is supposed to lose straight up fights needs edges that can quickly become toxic if not managed properly. I applauded changes like shee/wse wiping nerfs, but my instinct is that they did not recieve enough back ti compensate. Shees are some of the worst melee chasers, Rangers don't bleed models anymore, DA lose models like crazy and shuris are long past their day as the top setup team.

All in all, Eldar hit the racial themes well, but I think their tricks have been overnerfed. This becomes a unit by unit discussion quickly. Some are in solid position as far as mixing the eldar themes (frailty, explosive damage, unfair abilities, mobility, static defenses) with balance and avoiding toxisity, others could use some work. Opinions to follow!

Like/dislike some of the concept ideas that were posted in this thread, yes/no? Why? Elaborate.
- Wraithguard - Healing usable while moving, possibly nerfed a bit.
Caels words: However, it often turns out to be that Wraithguard manage to fire a volley, and the fight is over – very anticlimatic for the most part.

I don't like this change for a number of reasons. First and most importantly, it doesn't address the stated problem you have with the unit. While FOTM makes WG a lot harder to tie up in melee, their reduced damage and courage damage went a long way to reducing the "hit and I win, miss and you win" aspect of the unit. If the goal is to reduce the all or nothing more, then address that. T3 healing capabilities are way past the important time window of this unit. WG are very strong, and constitute a gear shift in my play when they come out. I am suddenly able to spearhead a strong push (given the right compositions for me and my enemy) that I havn't been able to make all game, but their slow speed / reliance on webways / vulnerability of the leader makes it not a push that is going to happen often. I like this design a lot. While the SHI armor is strong, they have considerable vulnerability to melee (low-ish hp pool, slow speed, no melee resist).

- FP - Increase mobility, reduce
Cael's words: It's a frustrating tank that doesn't allow for much counter-play interaction, with the exception of an all-in attack, which results in the Fire Prism's ultimate demise due to its lack of mobility. So the Eldar tank's thematical design would be that they have really poor survivability if alone – but they should have the speed/acceleration/rotation as a tool for counter-play.

There isn't really enough detail in this proposal to sink my teeth into, and I have limited experience in T3 (since I mostly play 1v1). FP is an amazing unit with a heafty price tang and significant vulnerability - but only against some races. If you don't have some kind of deep-striking AV unit, the FP will only die if I mess up. This is the one part of the unit that I don't like, it's too safe in somematchups, and real vulnerable in others. Mobility in exchange for damage or Knockdown seems worth exploring, but very carefuly. Eldar T3 is wierd. So much of it is support focused. It's unfortunate that the FP coveres both anti infantry and AV roles so well, but at least it takes micro? I dunno. Maybe split upgrades would be the way to go - Remove knockback and reduce damage while increasing mobility and reducing price. Add 2 upgrades that are mutually exclusive, one increases all damage, the other adds knockdown to the AOE beam. ::shrugs::

On to specific units!

T1
DA:
• These are curently one of my favorite units in the Eldar roster, so I don't really agree with them getting buffed. I especialy don't like the cost/renforce as the place to buff them: it mitigates the aspect of the that I think is important, that you shouldn't let them bleed.
• As mentioned by some other Eldar players, I avoid upgrading these guys as much as possible. They deal tac dps out of the gate, and 65 req is a LOT for no damage or durability increase. I'd really like to see the cost of battle equipment go down and/or fleet go into the units starting abilities (perhaps at the cost of some aspect of the unit that goes into one of it's other upgrades) instead of a pricetag reduction. I will absolutely be doing 3x DA more often in 2.5!

Shees:
• Shees are weak. Swapping chase for a leap reduced their toxisity, but has left them unimpressive and expensive. If mobility is to be their halmark instead of chase wiping (which I'm all for), then let's really double down on it. Random possabilities:
- Lower leap CD.
- Longer leap range.
- Shorten "winddown" at the end of leap
- Leap deals damage like hormas
- More strongly differentiate and buff the two aspects
- Fleet no longer reduces their melee damage
- More health or damage

Shuri:
• Absolutely manditory in so many matchups, yet tragically vulnerable.
• Platform die last causes them to wipe a LOT. I've literaly stoped making them against SM. T2 ASM jumping them, if the platform scatters forward, dead. I'd really like to see the platform get melee resist, or lose "die last" (or maybe become SHI?). It becoming isolated and sucking the other models to death happens too frequently.
• I've heard tell of how OP shuris are, but I don't see it. .5 more speed then other platforms is nice, but the melee resist and HI of chaos/SM is SO much stronger, stealth on lootas is a rick eldar should have had and HWT scale better and just got buffed (and are cheaper). Autocannons and veng rounds have been buffed many times since retail. At best I'd say they are on par to other setups, but more manditory due to race design.
• Brightlance is the worst AV setup team in the game. A tiny bit more dps isn't worth losing snare or lootas spike+stealth tricks. Scorch Beam helps, but is no anti-all autocannon (dps difference between BL and autocannons against vehicles is mild, autos spike better and are anti all.)

Rangers:
• Losing damage for suppression was an example of really good Eldar change. While there are some issues, this traded toxic gameplay for something still strong, but more reasonable.
• Inconsistency of suppression makes one Ranger hard to gain a lot of value from, and pricetag / lack of scalability makes 2 a risky proposition (FD do help a lot here, allowing a no-shuri build to work in some matchups) It is very frustrating when sometimes it takes 4 shots to suppress, other times 2. I can't plan ambushes and flanks like this! If a single model of a squad is in cover, does it convey the suppression resistance to the whole squad, even if one out of cover is hit? I feel like this is the case, as unit casually walking by cover while under fire seem to never suppress. But I can't be sure. All I know for 100% certainty is that squads do not consistently become suppressed when hit twice in a row by a stationary Ranger when hitting models that are clearly not in cover. I have replays
• This unit is really interesting and filled with potential for aggressive play. It's pricetag however makes it very hard to get into the mix, as you need ways to stop melee rushdown early on in a lot of matchups. As others have mentioned, it's scaling is so-so as well, though I use it for spotting and side capping to good success.
• It's prolly unreasonable, but I'd really like to see these guys cost go down. Maybe just pathfinder gear reduced a bit?

T2:
Dark Reapers
• This unit lacks the stats to preform what appears to be it's role. No FOTM or fleet of foot with increased range make it a clear "stand and deliver" unit, especially combined with it's pinning fire. However, it's damage isn't high enough to make it worth the effort of getting it in place, and it's outclassed by other Eldar units for the same role. Warpsipders deal around the same damage, are nuts better at repositioning (which means they fire more often) and have AV. WG can actually spearhead while laying down withering fire.
• Inferno damage type was a change I liked on paper, but in practice it is lackluster. As mentioned, when is this unit better then Warpsiders? HI armies is the odvious answer, but Reapers scale pretty badly, as HI armies mostly end up with SHI in T3, which inferno deals no bonus damage too and are mostly suppression immune, making Pinning Shot worthless. It's again better to get spiders to pick on commanders (who take more damage from piercing then inferno) or the light infantry support of the army. Or sid capping, or gen hunting or AV, none of which Reapers can do.
• Webways and Falchon do work well with them, but just get WG instead.
• Listed 2.5 changes do nothing to address this. HI and more health just puts more of their value in survivability. This unit is NOT going to be tanking damage, so buffs there are not really helping. Plus, losing their nuke in exchange for a vision increase is iffy. Reapers are not your spearhead unit, meaning other units tend to spot for them. Rangers, FS or a WG are all for either going in first or pokeing ahead. In short, +sight range on a slow, fragile unit without escapes is awkward to use!
• Some ideas:
- Damage back to plasma
- Suppression Fire gives +50% damage to SHI
- T3 upgrade that changes damage type to plasma
- Change damage to piercing, introduce upgrade that changes it to inferno
- Reduce cost or roll leader/aspect stats into base unit.
- Shameless stealing - Make it a micro-setup team like BloatedChamp said. The unit is already stand and deliver, embrace it!
- On that note, make it deal increased damage for the longer it fire. IE: Gain 5% damage for every second of firing to a max of 50%. These stacks dissapear at a rate of 1 per second if the unit is not stationary.

WarpSpider:
• Super crazy good and exactly what Eldar want/need.
• Bleed prone if used improperly, frustrating when used properly.
• Expensive, but worth the investment.
• Retreat damage nerf from way back when was a wonderful change for these guys.

Fire Dragons:
• I'm cautiously optimistic the 2.5 nerfs will be enough.
• I can't imagine fighting against races that can field eary T2 cehicles without these guys. They really open up build orders.
• I do agree that it's frustrating that they are anti-all. There is nearly no reason to not get at least 1 of these guys in most games. They deal fantastic damage for cheap, and as long as they are given some support and micro, they can deliver it.
• I would be happy to see more substancial changes ot the unit, but as mentioned the 2.5 list might be enough. Thoughts on other nerfs (though I suspect many of these would need to be paired with buffs):
- Change damage type to one of the dedicated AV types and buff the unit as need.
- Increase weapon cooldown even more (from 1 to 2 or 2.5) and make Dragon's Fury reduce cooldown to .5.
- Reduce courage to 100
- Or just stright up increase price / pop. They overpreform current cost - so maybe changing just that is enough.

Falchon:
• Love/hate relationship with this unit, which means it's in a good place!
• Reinforce play is a little counter to what makes Eldar work (don't bleed!) but it works nicely in spike-damage fights.
• Soft AV is of course super welcome, and the low req cost means I can often fit it.
• A bit fragile in T2 (tends to spin around, get pathing fucked a lot, which makes it's low hp pool especially problematic) but absolutely too durable in T3 with shield, when it becomes a battle tank. I call this out because the pricetag for the Falchon is a chunk higher then other transports because of it's amazing weaponry. So if it is completely zoned by a setup team, you are losing a lot of it's value.
• I think it might be neat if the shield was available in T2 with a couple of changes:
- Lower base health of Falchon.
- Shield ratio is like 1 to 1.
- Falchon base speed or damage reduced, but it gains an ability to increase the speed or damage that costs energy.
- T3 upgrade which either gives it a lot more energy and energy regen, or bumps the shield ratio up to 1 to 5.

Wraithlord:
• Don't care for this unit. It's low hp pool and lack of a big awesome ability (barrage, emperors fist, frenzy) even when upgraded makes it mediocre. If it rushes up it can get in a lot of trouble (Eldar are not exactly kings of the rushdown) if isolated, and it's only firing when facing forward. This leads me to play it a lot like the GK dread - stand back and be a un-asailable ranged damage platform that helps against melee jump/flanking. And this is nice and all, but I spent a lot on it, and the GK dread can get upgrades from there, while the WL had to already skip on the BL to actually deal ranged damage.
• I completely acknowledge that this guy gets to keep melee resist and splash with his weapon upgrades. Strong, but not quite there.
• 50% FOTM on the shuri upgrade is something I only recently learned. 46 ranged dps is nothing to write home about, so halving it when moving is all the more painful.

Wraithguard:
• Super potent unit. Caels discussion of it confused me though, it sounded like a case for nerfs (which I'd be fine with) then discussed how to buff it.
• I wouldn't mind seeing the courage damage reduce or go away, damage go down a bit and rate of fire increase. Would be less all or nothing while still supplying incredible spearheading.

T3:
I'm out of steam and should really post. So I'm gonna do that, I may edit this later. I've spent too much time coalating this, and not enough time editing it. But fuckit, you want feedback, here ya go!

TL;DR
WG are fine.
FP changes should be cautious.
Shees need buffs badly.
Reaper changes in wrong direction.

Edits:
Buncha formatting, some spelling.
Added "To Do"

To Do:
Webways
T3
Commanders
General editing

[Aetherion]

Eldar changes 2.5

Many of the above posters’ opinions mirror mine, but I can’t bear to just quote everyone and put a +1 for things I agree with.
Warning: wall of text and crazy ideas below. Feel free to dismiss the crazy proposals, but not my opinions , at least not outright without reasoning.
I’m an eldar main since the beginning (2011) and Elite mod was a dream come true compared to retail. I would say im a mid-level ish player with off days where I play like crap and wished that Eldar were as OP as they are in the fluff or table top (wraithknights anyone?).

I’ll give my thoughts on the core units and the controversial ones (which is pretty much everything except the avatar. Each unit I’ll give my experience with the unit, my opinions of the role it has/should play, what I think can tweak it and address some of the suggestions for them.

General:
The dying theme of eldar is quite well represented, I often find myself throwing my precious Eldar souls away just to get that cap and last few vps (aspiring eldar players should not do this) but the nature of the game is that such tactics are required. It has gotten to the point where my kd ratio (against say SM, Chaos or even Orks) is less than unity.

I find the core of the eldar fighting style is indeed rage inducing. Hit hard, fade fast (though tbh the second part is unnecessary if you pushed everyone off). To me, sustainability is measured by how consistently can I keep up harassing and being effective about it. By the time there is the big fight with everything in, the enemy should already be doomed.

As a proper disciple of the Eldar race, I hold most of the other species in disdain. This translates to me having utmost contempt for spammers, blobs and brute force A moving builds and races. E.g horma/slugga/Fire Dragon spam, nid/GK/IG ranged blob. I immortalise every moment where a nuke deservingly wipes out such blobs.

Gates: Frustrating to say the least, for both the users and people trying to deny them. They are the primary reason why Farseers have no red for an Eldritch (the other heroes spend their red on buffs). As many people have said, it is a one trick pony unless the opponent doesn't have detectors/time/units to hunt it down. That they can be spotted as they are building makes them too macro based in that returns come much later and have much less immediate impact. I also need clarification if the abilities when used act as an aura (health, energy regen, stealth applies to all that enter the area after the ability is activated. If they do not, I feel they should, especially in the case of stealth, since it delays the lightning strike too much when you take the time to disembark 4 units, then stealth and attack. There should be an immediacy to the ambush from the webways, not dawdling at the gates because you need to wait for everyone to stealth up. Health, energy regen gives the Eldar a pseudo base to fall back to when in field.

Cheaper leader buyback mechanic: Yes. Eldar, more so than any race (maybe orks) rely on their leaders and don’t have a die last mechanic which has its own set of problems (tho fluff wise this would be the solution where fallen exarchs are revived and integrated with eldar lost on the same path). This is one of the main sources of bleed (most importantly, it hurts power) for the eldar economy.

T1:

Dire Avengers: Love them for their versatility, damage and well roundedness. I was very excited when it was announced they would get a price decrease back to 270 (like in patch 2.3). But as I got to appreciate the exarch in T1, I am starting to get the sense that triple DA would be the go to build and coupled with shees having lost their retreat killing cheese, will lead to banshees being way way underused. There would probably be more moaning about nade spikes and squad wipes, even though these are highly skill based. The lower reinforce cost would definitely help the eldar economy, though thus far, I am already floating req (300-500 ish) often (assuming I don’t lose squads).

Edit: against opponents of equal skills or above, the req float disappears cos bleed. The point about underused banshees will probably still stand.

Banshees: While the change to the retreat killing was overall a good thing for anyone facing eldar (including eldar themselves) it took away one of the few things they had going for them. Yes they could reasonably get into a fight, but cannot stay there long enough to blend the enemy into bloody chunks. Fluffwise, they were good in melee because they were so agile and disruptive with their screams that they couldn’t be hit. If units in suppression have a melee penalty, banshees would be so bloody awesome (as well as raptors, heretics and even barbed strangler warriors) though the repercussions of such a change would be immense. Right now, they are a very situational unit which explains the pro eldar players late banshee builds; against certain heroes or even races (im looking at you IG) banshees are a waste of resources, time and micro. I don’t think I need to mention how often the exarch leads the charge and dies at or before the first return swing of the enemy they are supposed to be massacring. I honestly don’t know where to go with them.

Rangers: I have little to say for them, amazing macro unit to backcap, support with infiltration, scouting and harassment. I like the changes so far and I think they are in a pretty good way now that they don’t drop guardsmen, DA and shoota models with every shot (though I wish they kill termagants under synapse in one shot). The effect on heavy infantry is just devastating to well… devastators and havocs and gives Eldar ability to counter to setup teams.

Guardian Weapon Team: I am so conflicted with this unit right now. It used to feature majorly in all my games, but perhaps due to meta changes leading to it being easily countered, I never field it unless I would be absolutely overrun without it or the map calls for a suppression team. Its inability to be forced to reset up due to model loss is still a good thing, but has the significant caveat of being easily retreat killed as mentioned by the other posters. Ironically fluffwise, it being a grav platform and all made it agile and able to safely pull away from a losing fight. Layering suppression has always been an eldar specialty, especially with the high damage output. But it relies too much on the other player not knowing there is a 2nd GST around, so its only good once. Any form of concealment would involve rangers which makes your already heavy T1 heavier and one dimensional (mainly piercing/suppression damage and setup units).
Compared to retail where brightlances were a separate non power costing, it is both a good thing and a bad thing. On one hand what if you still needed the anti-infantry dakka? Get a second/third GST? Look at the above problem. The scorch beam is cute, but doesn’t quite cut it.
Crazy idea time: replace brightlance with the falcon pulse laser, offers some mediocre suppression (that makes one ranger, one GST suppress in a reasonable amount of time) and some anti all damage (tho this doesn’t seem to be a very popular concept right now)

T2:

Wraithguard: Very satisfying against unskilled opponents who think a shooting match with them is a good idea. Most effectively I would use them with the falcon. Get in, roll up behind the enemy, get out, volley and repeat. Though you need to be very careful in using the X button with them, the retreat kill potential is so high.
I would happily take a 20% damage reduction for increased accuracy against moving targets. I feel this is what makes them such a hit or miss unit.
A radical change might be to implement to the dcannon mechanic (half upfront damage, other half in the area) for their wraithcannons. It makes them incredible area denial units and follows the eldar theme of putting enemies in awkward positions.
Count this one as late night random thoughts with little thought behind it, but if wraithguard gradually suppress things around them (akin to the nurgle shrine) they definitely be quite intimidating as well as giving them a chance against melee and a reason to stick around despite being stuck in the close range fighting (this might be OPaf so T3 upgrade?)
The suggestion for them to be able to regen while moving is interesting, giving them the sustain as well as ability to keep firing. Their main counters (melee superiority units) wouldn't care, but ad hoc melee units would find themselves being outhealed while WG carry on unleashing hell.

I'll just leave this here: http://imgur.com/AOQrX6y

Fire dragons: Personally, I use them as vehicle assassins and not so much for front line fighting considering their short range, so for me they are in a very nice spot (maybe not so much for my opponents). The inability to be ability knocked back is ridiculous of course and is rightly removed. I have never resorted to spamming them because I feel they wouldn’t actually work. I just sit my vehicle still, and melee them with all available units, including rangers and the kitchen sink.
The change to heavy inf is huge and I think will address their OPness. Their anti-all damage will not come into play much when they get mulched by power melee and increased damage from other ranged sources that kills typical power armour like TCSM, plasma etc. (they will be one shotted by plasma cannons now, like dark reapers) If spamming is an issue, I did hear a suggestion that their pop be increased or maybe their upkeep; together with bleeding way more in the new patch should tone down the spammage.
The exarch is quite fluffy, giving them longer range as he has a firepike on TT. Aesthetically I wish he was a little more differentiated (longer gun?)other than the orange circle about his feet.
If possible, I'd like the Fire Dragons to have target priority on vehicles (like AV teams), especially if their damage type is indeed changed to pure AV. Their short range necessitates this, otherwise they would spend a great deal of time not shooting what they are supposed to.

Falcon: I like them where they are now, they are a little of everything a vehicle should be. Tanky (come T3), a gradual source of damage and a game changer in its own right. I think they should be renamed as Wave serpents since they serve as a transport. They give reliable massive mobility to the fast themed eldar army so they can get consistant flanks in without gates or swift movement shenanigans. Fragile units can also hop in and out, reinforce etc so it gives the Eldar more sustain. Its fragility in t2 and wonky vehicle pathing does prevent it from doing too much to active defenders (that don’t rely on a static gunline which Eldar should break with ease)

Dark reapers: I loved them when they were first introduced (them and fire dragons pulled me to elite), they were basically ranged banshees for me. Somehow along the way they just bled too much and the exarch is way overpriced for the ability of a glorified grenade barrage and less than adequate dakka. And like other eldar leader models, tend to die first. Giving fotm, along with the increased sight from the exarch (though I do wish it wasn’t leader dependent) would solve many of their issues, namely not being sufficiently active and safe at the same time. Their pinning fire I feel takes a little too long to suppress, that melee units are already on them by the time they are suppressed. Perhaps the purchasing the exarch can increase the rate which enemies are pinned?

Warp spiders: I don’t have enough experience with this unit to properly comment on it. I find them way too fragile and similar in terms of combat to Dire Avengers. They do about 65% ish more damage for twice the price (counting in terms of power more than req). While they have haywire to snare vehicles, it distracts from their main role (though I’m not complaining of their utility) – put out ranged damage. Fluffwise, they have powerful short ranged guns enough to damage light vehicles. I don’t think this is what should be in the game (given we already have fire dragons) but I feel their role should be to get up close and personal, akin to shotguns and vomit firepower on unsuspecting infantry, and possibly melee setups team/back line units.

Wraithlord: I agree quite a lot with Cyris. Its health nerf in 2.4 made it unsuitable to be a linebreaker for eldar. Its versatility in melee and range does not really compensate for its inability to stand up in a fight. If they were a bit faster, they would be able to keep up with the army and do the Eldar thing of running circles around the enemy. Though this does violate the fluff, which admittedly their current state quite well represents. I remember back in the day when its shoulder mounted weapons would sporadically fire while in melee, which is realistic if not balanced or consistent.

T3:

Fire prisms: It is an incredibly fragile piece of mobile artillery; I do not feel they need a damage nerf or removing knockback. They are more expensive, have less health, less AV dps than predators, no where near the spike damage of artillery pieces and is supposed to fill all these roles as the T3 vehicle? Their sniping ability and crowd control are their redeeming features and whilst annoying can be broken through to. If I were a troll, I’d say l2p, but in respect for the difficulty others face in against this unit I apologise for my unworthy thoughts.

Seer council: Nothing much to complain about here, awfully good at wrecking infantry that can be knocked back, though it is a shame that they have average melee skill for a T3 melee superiority unit (70) + they can bee knocked back themselves and unlike genestealers or nobs can't really tank it. The farseer global to call them down doesn’t seem to provide much utility for 300 red (which so so precious). I would say calling them down infield would be an improvement (instant onfield melee units do seem like an issue, but ass Termis and to a lesser extent warriors, raveners, without number provide precedents). Fluffwise, they need an ability (they form one of the most powerful psychic gestalts aside from the Tyranids and Orks) but if they do receive one they will need price increases and that makes them super unit status which I do not think they are ready to be yet.

D-cannon: Similarly to the rangers, I have little to say about them. Good, fairly cheap way for eldar to besiege a position or defend one. Though I swear in 2.4, they are so awfully inaccurate. I’m talking about the initial hit here, it just seems to fall short against stationary targets and overshoot for moving ones. Maybe it’s just me. Singularity was nerfed by the aesthetic change, people can now tell between an eldritch and a singularity so wont mass retreat from it
The change in 2.4 is suitably fluffy, a hole into the warp does tend to linger though perhaps the visual effect can be turned up a bit if possible.

Avatar: Nope, nothing to see here, move along. Just a fragment of the god of war wailing on you and all those around you. Casting time could be a little reduced (but that might just be OP)

Credits:
Caeltos, founder of the mod
Lulgrim, Wise Windu and other coders and compilers of data
Indrid, BbBos, Max Power for casting and streaming
FA Beginners Club for hours, days and weeks of social activity that I otherwise would not have.
Jekkujere, Tsototar for their Eldar guidance
Nikster, Corniflox for their discussions on this topic
Everyone who bothered to read through my post and have a think about Eldar as a theme

For the Fallen!

I’ll probably have to stop here since I spent 4 hours writing this post, constantly cross checking data and referring to the previous posts. Like Cyris, will update and edit when I top up my eat, sleep and responsibility bars by doing shit im supposed to

To do:
Autarch
Commanders
Wraithlord
Warp Spiders
Gates
Edits
Formating
Memes
Others suggestions and credits

[Wis]

About the banshee exarch there are a couple of solutions i think.
= Changing the banshee default position of the exarch in the formation (instead of at the top at the rear) like this:

Also the lead model being a regular banshee if killed would be replaced by another regular one ( basically like if they had no exarch at all). It should be possible to change the spawn location of the exarch of any squad. Could be same for any squishy squad leader like the wraithguards warlock. They should anyway deploy in any melee.

=The gaunts leap as someone suggested was a good idea too for banshees.

Honestly i admire you trying to balance this game but by creating new units and stuff you created a headache for yourself where you change so much stuff that youre lost in a sea of moving sand, retail suffer from imbalance to some extend but the only major problem of dow2 is essentially the pathing, models lagging behind getting squads stuck, units stuck in retreat (prolly pathing issue), staggered jumps, .... Those stuff are more an annoyance than any 1 or 2 dps you could add or substract from anything.

[Caeltos]

I will respectfully disagree with your opinion on the retail concerns. It is a matter of opinion afterall.

Honestly i admire you trying to balance this game but by creating new units and stuff you created a headache for yourself where you change so much stuff that youre lost in a sea of moving sand

This isn't so much that it's a headache, it's more of an thematical approach instead. See, I mention that things might be 'balanced' per se, but that doesn't neccassarily mean that it's staying true to it's thematical design. Thus, the thread was created - and there's been a mixed bag on weither or not, the current existing Eldar feels true to their "Art of War".

For a very overexagurrated example - Let's just say that Space Marines were not a defined faction by the quality over quanity aspect, and they were a faction that had more squads then other existing factions. However, somehow this was "balanced" and fair for the game, and things went along just nicely. However on the other hand - it doesn't really represent the Space Marines accurately, so the two components that are suppose to go hand-in hand with design & gameplay falls short, resulting in a very representation of the Space Marine faction - yet they are balanced.

This is what this thread is mainly about. To see what people think, and my opinions on the matter all at the same time. This thread isn't meant to be focused on balance of the faction, it's the theme of it.

[Laplace's Demon]

There are well known things that eldar struggle against, and it seems mostly due to a lack of options, in my view. Eldar struggle against turrets in hard-to-flank positions due to NO flame weapons (Warlock ability excepted).

In order to deal with turrets, you can simply use warps spiders to teleport in and engage the turret in melee to disable it. Alternatively you can use fire dragons (who have good suppression resistance), rangers (who have superior range), wraithgaurd or vehicles to deal with them.

I've asked before to add eldar jump infanty to help be aggressive and to counter turrets/ setups without praying for a wraithlord/ wraithguard in t2.

Technically, eldar do have jump troops in the form of warp spiders, warp spider exarch and the autarch.

I'm not saying eldar have no turret counters. I'm saying that all the options to deal with them u just gave are in t2 while turrents can be put up in t1.

Also on jump troops, give warp spiders disruption on landing and move them to t1 and we've got a deal.

[Kvn]

I'm not saying eldar have no turret counters. I'm saying that all the options to deal with them u just gave are in t2 while turrents can be put up in t1.

Also on jump troops, give warp spiders disruption on landing and move them to t1 and we've got a deal.

I'm assuming there would be pretty heavy stat nerfs if that were to happen? In their current state alone, Warp Spiders would be nightmarishly powerful in T1, much less if they were given disruption on landing. I kind of like them how they are though. A really scary T2 anti infantry unit with high mobility and a bit of av thrown in.

But I personally don't think that Eldar should get a reskin of ASM as a means to deal with those kinds of things. I mean, in 1v1 they've got mobility to simply ignore turrets seeing as they're completely static. They're only really unavoidable in certain 2v2 or 3v3 maps, where you can either swap lanes until later (while keeping up a defense to hold your power if you're in that lane), call out for help from teammates, or flank.

If things get to a point where you can't avoid it and need a head on assault, two out of three Eldar commanders have strong, T1 answers. Warp Spider Exarch has Group Teleport and Warlock has Immolator. Farseer is a bit trickier, but she can still do some work with Webway Gates. Of course, that means she needs to amass some red in the early game, but there's plenty of other stuff she specializes in.

Edit: Just realized you may have been sarcastic about the Warp Spider suggestion. If that's the case, I apologize. That's my bad.

[hiveminion]

I'm not saying eldar have no turret counters. I'm saying that all the options to deal with them u just gave are in t2 while turrents can be put up in t1.

Nids are much worse off.

[Laplace's Demon]

I'm not saying eldar have no turret counters. I'm saying that all the options to deal with them u just gave are in t2 while turrents can be put up in t1.

Nids are much worse off.

Raveners/ T1/ Burrow = hard counter to set-ups and turrets. and all three commanders have options as well. Tyrant can charge through suppression, lictor can cloak/ leap, and ravener alpha can burrow at will. No such luck with eldar imo.

[hiveminion]

Raveners/ T1/ Burrow = hard counter to set-ups and turrets. and all three commanders have options as well. Tyrant can charge through suppression, lictor can cloak/ leap, and ravener alpha can burrow at will. No such luck with eldar imo.

Well your opinion is wrong. As already stated two Eldar commanders already have some of the best T1 anti-turret abilities: Immolate and Group Teleport. That leaves the Farseer to struggle against turrets. But you can still infiltrate your T1 army with Rangers and flank with FoF.

Raveners are not a turret counter unless the turret is unsupported and the Raveners have a good minute to wear it down. They are so fragile that most ranged or melee units can force them off after the jump. The Tyrant can charge through but can take heavy damage on the way in, and again with support for the turret and none for the HT it will be forced off before it can do significant damage. A Lictor by itself also won't do much. The Ravener tunnels are your best bet. But that is arguably a weaker version of a Group Teleport.

It's also important to stress the advantage of Rangers in a match-up vs a Turret as you can still bleed and disrupt the opposing army beyond the Turret's firing arc.

[BloatedChamp]

This is really funny that you think eldar have no set-up counters.

The fact is, they do not need a direct counter because, there are lots of options available to them.

Rangers for one, clearly out-range set-up teams. I can't tell you how scary it is, to have your set-up team being picked off before you have time to put them to good use.

A common build most eldar players use is 3 dire avenger squads. ( Give at least one of these dire avengers plasma grenades, split up your attack, Fleet of Floot) and you can instantly force a retreat on your opponent.

ever thought of set-up team vs set-up team. Shuriken platforms are must faster in speed and can quickly get to advantageous positions.Especially potent with farseer and "guide" in which you will clearly out range the opponent's set-up team.

I mean these are just a few ways to counter. Trust me m8, eldar are not lacking in counters.

[BloatedChamp]

As for turrets. I think any race will struggle against a proper turret placement. This is not a distinct eldar problem.