Eldar Design notes & questions

[Cyris]

I think it would be better to keep this thread on Eldar, and not the problems of turrets on 3v3 maps.

[Oddnerd]

As for turrets. I think any race will struggle against a proper turret placement. This is not a distinct eldar problem.

Aside from the warlock, who has a flame ability that can toast a turret in one use, I don't believe the eldar have something comparably effective for toasting turrets. There are other ways to deal with turrets, but I think that the Eldar's lack of a flamer unit does put them at a disadvantage.

[Laplace's Demon]

Raveners/ T1/ Burrow = hard counter to set-ups and turrets. and all three commanders have options as well. Tyrant can charge through suppression, lictor can cloak/ leap, and ravener alpha can burrow at will. No such luck with eldar imo.

Well your opinion is wrong. As already stated two Eldar commanders already have some of the best T1 anti-turret abilities: Immolate and Group Teleport. That leaves the Farseer to struggle against turrets. But you can still infiltrate your T1 army with Rangers and flank with FoF.

Raveners are not a turret counter unless the turret is unsupported and the Raveners have a good minute to wear it down. They are so fragile that most ranged or melee units can force them off after the jump. The Tyrant can charge through but can take heavy damage on the way in, and again with support for the turret and none for the HT it will be forced off before it can do significant damage. A Lictor by itself also won't do much. The Ravener tunnels are your best bet. But that is arguably a weaker version of a Group Teleport.

It's also important to stress the advantage of Rangers in a match-up vs a Turret as you can still bleed and disrupt the opposing army beyond the Turret's firing arc.

Again, I'm not saying eldar have no counters to turrets. I'm coming at this from a farseer PoV, ya... and I can't take ranger recommendations seriously since rangers do not scale well at all past T1. Not sure what kind of damage rangers will do to a turret tho, tbh. They've always just been a liability since the nerf, so I avoid them mostly. Mostly I see eldar players wait to t2 for wraithguard/lord to get a unit that will scale and deal with the turret. my 2 cents

[Laplace's Demon]

I think it would be better to keep this thread on Eldar, and not the problems of turrets on 3v3 maps.

Fair

[Broodwich]

I'll admit I havent read the entire thread, but i feel changing the model count of guardians and shees to 4 and then reworking the numbers around that would more accurately portray eldar in general. Somewhere more than SM but less than everything else. I mean seriously, eldar = orks??

I'd envision upgrades adding a model rather than a direct buff to HP. This would make them more effective with their upgrades and less reliant on shuri play. The cost would have to go up also, but that would hopefully make it worth it.

I had a good idea for rangers, but then killed those braincells over the weekend.

Anyway, discuss

[egewithin]

BTW, can we have a different icon when Singularity or Eldritch Strom casting? They are same and I am not always sure how to act. I can simply walk out Eldritch but if it an Singi, it will drag me in. So, can we have one of those icons to old / vanillia version ?

[Wise Windu]

They are different

[Flash]

I'll admit I havent read the entire thread, but i feel changing the model count of guardians and shees to 4 and then reworking the numbers around that would more accurately portray eldar in general. Somewhere more than SM but less than everything else. I mean seriously, eldar = orks??

I'd envision upgrades adding a model rather than a direct buff to HP. This would make them more effective with their upgrades and less reliant on shuri play. The cost would have to go up also, but that would hopefully make it worth it.

I had a good idea for rangers, but then killed those braincells over the weekend.

Anyway, discuss

This might be interesting. Particularly with banshees. They're pretty bad atm. Would the original HP be redistributed among 4 models? so instead of 150 HP per model, it'd go to 187.5?

Also is having the 10% HP with the aspect actually worth it? The fleet and war shout are of course worth it. But the 10% HP bonus is super tiny. Why is it attached to that upgrade?

[Dark Riku]

Because of the banshee HP buff. Change log:

Aspect health bonus decreased from 30% to 10%
Health increased from 125 (625 total) to 150 (750 total)

Before: 625-812.5HP
Now: 750-825HP

[ChokoBambus]

The biggest problem I have with Eldar design is the unscalability of the squads into late game. Aspect warriors by design are specialized squads that fulfill a certain role and, different from other races, there is not a same but better unit in the next tier that you can tech to. Late game the tier 1 squads feel like a burden and not a reward for saving them. The other thing is the tier1 orky feel of squad sizes. I have already voiced my concerns on Rangers and how bad they are.

Expensive squad leaders that keep dying is another issue, but a general one I feel like.

Ill try to give a mix of balance and design tweaks, not to buff places that work well at the moment, but to open up the build rooster a bit more.

Squad sizes:
- Guardian and Banshee squads changed from 5 to 4, damage and health redistributed to match the current total values.

Ranger:
- Damage changed to one shot sluggas, shootas, catachans, guardsmen and other 300 reg or below squad models. They would not one shot scouts, banshees, etc..
- tier 3 upgrade added that distributes two additional rifles to the models
- health buffed from 150 to 200

Banshee:
- tier 3 upgraded added that increases health by 20% and damage by 10%

Reaper:
- tier 3 upgrade added that increases range by 20%-30%

Warp Spiders:
- tier 3 upgrade added that gives them damage taken reduction for 3 seconds after teleporting and increases teleport range by a certain amount

Fire Dragons:
- tier 3 upgrade added that gives them 30% ranged damage taken reduction and a melta bomb sort of attack that does low damage and snares the vehicle for 4 seconds

Wraithguard:
- wraithbone now also adds a 20% ranged damage taken reduction alongside the healing ability

Wraithguard:
- wraithbone buffs health by 200 alongside the healing ability

Autarch- she is the only mini hero who does not benefit stat wise from the wargear she buys, this is silly compared to any other mini hero:
- executioner blade also buffs autarch HP by 100
- Shield bubble also increases the mana pool by 50 and adds a 1,5/s energy regeneration bonus
- added a reaper launcher wargear to the autarch to give an option of ranged play for the hero

My 2 cents on how to open up the eldar roster a bit.

[egewithin]

Why would they all deserve T3 upgrades? My Guardsmen can't handle T3 fire powaa but I have no problem with that for example?

[Oddnerd]

Sniper units that 1-shot any model are asking for trouble and probably will result in super toxic game play, no matter how well-intentioned.

EDIT - I think snipers may 1 shot cultists, but they are a complete fodder unit so that isn't unfair.

[ChokoBambus]

Guardsmen have 3 upgrades in total that makes them scale into mid tier2, and they become solid in tier3 as well due to utility for repair and 3 for 1 reinforce.

Eldar units fall off significantly. Guardians remaining the same is ok due to utility but aspect warriors fall of significantly.

Consider that core units all have upgrades and the tier3 units are extremely cost effective. Eldar has no core tier3 infantry units. They are stuck with aspect warriors that peak in tier2. You want options? you need to scale them with upgrades into tier3.

[Lichtbringer]

Why would they all deserve T3 upgrades? My Guardsmen can't handle T3 fire powaa but I have no problem with that for example?

I always had the feeling Plasmaguns scale pretty well.

[Thibix Magnus]

I'm not sure about the scaling issue, Eldar units scaling was traditionnally uterly reliant on heroes abilities. Warp spiders by themselves scale badly because by T3 they die too fast (and cost too much in the process of dying) to be able to deal their fantastic damage, but with time field it changes completely. At least that's what I used to read a few years ago... now I see a consensus building about "OP eldar abilities" strangely narrowed on abilities only wich I'm afraid doesn't take in consideration the whole picture... just a feeling though

[ChokoBambus]

Ork tier1 has traditionally scaled with the wartruck, but that has not stopped the mod from buffing slugga scaling and making shoota nobs unkillable.

[Dark Riku]

Ork tier1 has traditionally scaled with the wartruck, but that has not stopped the mod from buffing slugga scaling and making shoota nobs unkillable.

Buffing slugga scaling? °_O How? In Elite they can't break suppression with that stupid OP retail ability...
All detection leaders are die last models...

[Thunderhost]

.. now I see a consensus building about "OP eldar abilities" strangely narrowed on abilities only wich I'm afraid doesn't take in consideration the whole picture... just a feeling though

I just think you hear the loudest part of the community tbh.

[Lesten]

All detection leaders are die last models...

I don't think DA exarchs die last. (Could be wrong, haven't played 2.5 that much yet.)

[Aetherion]

All detection leaders are die last models...

I don't think DA exarchs die last. (Could be wrong, haven't played 2.5 that much yet.)

Nope, most definitely not die last. Except that they have 2x (or so) the hp of a DA model, still not that much though.

[Dark Riku]

All detection leaders are die last models...

I don't think DA exarchs die last. (Could be wrong, haven't played 2.5 that much yet.)

You are correct, my bad. They are soft detector with a smaller range and only cost 15 power.
I should have said all "real" detector leaders of 25 power.

[Ordie]

Sniper units that 1-shot any model are asking for trouble and probably will result in super toxic game play, no matter how well-intentioned.

EDIT - I think snipers may 1 shot cultists, but they are a complete fodder unit so that isn't unfair.

They one shot level 1, non-AC cultists. And I agree with your point, but I would advocate that Guardsmen are more 'fodder' than heretics, with their reinforce mechanic. And from the Lore standpoint Caeltos is approaching this from, it is rather silly that a guardsman can take a sniper round and walk it off.

I would also throw out there that if there is any interest in removing shurikens platforms from the game as too static of gameplay, perhaps this could be a place to start. Eldar don't hold points as well, but a fighting retreat, (move back, fire, move back, fire, move back, fire) would slow down blobby races as they march in towards your stuff, then they are too depleted to fire your regular army and you crush the remaining forces, which seems a very Eldar thing to do.

Again, just to be absolutely clear, I am only advocating that change if there is real interest in removing shuriken platforms from the game.

[ChokoBambus]

Question - Is it possible to:

- make the Webway assembly (HQ) a webway entry point
- remove the red cost but add a req + power cost to webways but still keep them as a global ability ?

or

- make the cost scale up depending on the amount of WWays on the field, price going up or down depending on the number?

Perhaps zooming in on a proper cost for web ways would reign them in a tad?

[Asmon]

Why would you replace red with req+power? It goes against the way globals work, plus unless the cost is ridiculously high it would be rather a buff than a nerf, because red is harder to make.