A few things before patch hits...

[Black Relic]

Catachans don't need to be nerfed at all. Their abilities are buggy and they a shit vs ork player who know what they are doing. Catachans are very far from OP. They work well vs since on paper they can deal with a set up team and a melee squad in t1.

The only thing that is strong with catachans is their IED imo. And that is what usually proves their worth by getting retreat kills and stopping back caps and sometimes power bashes. Not to mention the vision it gives the player.

And the reason as to why orks own IG is this, their shoota nobs are detectors and fully upgrading your shootas is always a good choice vs IG. And IED from catachans are auto targetable.

If you are talking about in 3v3 then they perform a bit better since they stay near your army. The whole game unlike in 1v1 where you do split.

If i was SM vs IG i would get a 2 scout (no upgrades unless of interrogators armor) 2 tacs ASM and devs (AT). One of the tacs would have flamers. The moment i get t2 id get melta bombs for some form of AV then wait and see what the IG brings out.

I if i was IG i would know what to do against all of that. It would be Cata and spotters. 2 Gm, sent(no upgrade?), cata, and spotters. Possibly another GM to cap around.

I'm not going to add the hero in the mix since they would change alot in terms of build orders and unit purchases.

[Tex]

Is somebody saying that catachans are OP? Is that what I'm reading? I'm literally blown away.

I will admit, I used to not know this intimately as I didn't really play IG, but now I play IG a lot. Catachans are not OP in the slightest manner. As relic said, their only redeeming quality as a standalone unit is that their IED does tremendous damage and can be used to help bash gens. The shotguns don't do outrageous damage, I don't get how you think 120 burst damage from 6 members is crazy (I'm not sure if all 6 members fire shotguns though). The shotguns have 11.76dps, so sticking with my 6 member math, that totals a "whopping" 70.56dps (for reference, a tac squad does just under 45dps) for a close range weapon that has no FOTM.

Has no FOTM

no FOTM

FOTM... has no!

I think we all know why catachans with all their bells and whistles, remain balanced or slightly UP, but hey, should I say it again?
-shotgun blast doesn't work properly
-linear knockback from old reliable
-no fotm
-no melee charge, sprint, or natural move speed adv
-expensive sarge upgrade that doesn't come close to what other sarge upgrades offer

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EDIT by Atlas: Minor formatting.

[Atlas]

^ What Tex said. If anything, Spotters should be getting some kind of buff as a squad, because right now they're pretty much useless for anything except their abilities. #1 candidate for 1 model side capping.

[Dark Riku]

Spotters don't need a buff. What they do for IG is awesome already.

Catachans only cost 300/30! ffs

[Cyris]

My thoughts on Catas pretty much line up with Tex. The unit is strong on paper, very middle of the road in practice, and downright poor when (not if) skills missfire. I have lost whole squads (and promptly the game) after a nade volley misses completely, or a shotgunblast doesn't go off.

I'd LOVE if 2.5 brought bug-fixing / optimizations to their shotgun and nade skills. Making them preform more consistently would foster more experimentation with them. I would be pleasantly surprised by other minor buffs too (+1 melee skill would be nice). But nerfs? Absolutely not.

[HansMoleman]

Spotters desperately need to be able to "spot" infiltrated units. Sent sux for being the detector.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Spotters desperately need to be able to "spot" infiltrated units. Sent sux for being the detector.

Aren't Catachans the goto detector unit for IG?

[Black Relic]

They are. But I hate having to get them vs KN. Tex has shown me how bad catas are vs KN. It was...painful. I would like a round that provides keen sight of a targeted area, but not give any sight. And i dont think i would mind paying for that type of thing.

[Oddnerd]

I remember suggesting spotters should be detectors a long time ago. Where were you people then???


I also wonder if they could be given the flare ability similar to that of the LC. It could be an upgrade of the smoke.

[Lulgrim]

I also wonder if they could be given the flare ability similar to that of the LC. It could be an upgrade of the smoke.

There’s an interesting concept actually, a secondary detector unit with no passive detection, but an on-demand targeted ability.

[Asmon]

Spotters are manticores in T1. Sure give them detection. And lightning claws too.

...

In all seriousness, spotters are already amazing and to give them detection would require at least a price raise.

[Oddnerd]

Spotters are manticores in T1. Sure give them detection. And lightning claws too.

Aguxyz, you might want to add this one to your collection.

[Tex]

Something that might be worth addressing is that karskins don't feel like an efficient unit, and it also feels like their sarge doesn't offer what his value suggests. As a T3 ranged superiority unit, they get forced off really easily. I understand that their ranged DPS did get toxic, so I wonder if perhaps a 4 second sprint ability (+3 speed) would be a nice addition to having to having the sarge purchased? The sprint would really help karskin get it done in a 1v1 situation against a leveled up melee squad like sluggas or banshees.

I also just saw that karskin only do 4 melee damage. Pretty sad for a T3 "utility/superiority" kind of unit.

Anyway, just another thought.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Something that might be worth addressing is that karskins don't feel like an efficient unit, and it also feels like their sarge doesn't offer what his value suggests. As a T3 ranged superiority unit, they get forced off really easily. I understand that their ranged DPS did get toxic, so I wonder if perhaps a 4 second sprint ability (+3 speed) would be a nice addition to having to having the sarge purchased? The sprint would really help karskin get it done in a 1v1 situation against a leveled up melee squad like sluggas or banshees.

I also just saw that karskin only do 4 melee damage. Pretty sad for a T3 "utility/superiority" kind of unit.

Anyway, just another thought.

Increase the cost of the Sarge, make him increase the damage by x%.

Karskin are supposed to be the ultimate IG ranged squad, not good melee fighters. They don't need more melee damage. The Karskin Sarge already do the same melee damage as the SM Tact Sarge.

[egewithin]

I would vote to make them a super good ranged unit with the production limit of 1 just like in DoW1. Make them like Seer Council I say

[Tex]

Well for reference, go look at the melee damage that flash gitz and kommandos do per model. The melee damage is obviously not for fighting melee units, its so that you are an actual melee threat to other ranged squads that typically cost a lot less. It opens up the utility dynamic of the squad, which I feel like is what they are supposed to be, yet haven't quite found their sweet spot at.

Something else that might give the karskins more utility with their sarge, would be to give him true sight. Obviously they wouldn't get the sprint as well then, but it would definitely encourage more purchases for this unit. I mean even with the true sight, you would essentially be buying a sarge that offers another squad member with similar dps, true sight, faster cap, and increased courage, for 75-25. That's not exactly a steal compared to other squad leaders.

Let's give him something!