Patch 2.5 (WIP)

[Tranca]

Whilst I understand the need to balance across all game modes, I do still have that preconception that the 1v1 mode is the 'first among equals' given the history of the mod. For example, if there was a glaring balance error in 1v1 which is completely absent in 3v3, would you make changes for the sake of 1v1 even if it skewed the balance in 3v3 or vice versa?

Thanks. I wanted to ask this question, but would have much rathered someone with more experience ask it.

Qft, as my question is the very same.

[Caeltos]

If there's a glaring issue in 1v1, but the problem isn't existant in other game modes, you just need to approach it very cautiously and open-minded, thus the balance evaluation of said problem in 2s/3s is equally important as the 1s, so you don't cause a completely dysfunctional game because you're just approaching it from a 1v1 perspective.

I guess, a comparison could be made that you can't simply just balance a game around the 1% (competetive pool) etc - because you still need to evaluate the other 99%, despite them not being a competetive enviroment. For an ex. Look at Mobas, there's a large shift in viable heroes in high-end, and there's a vast difference in the lower-tiers. So, the approach is not a nerf, or buff - it's a tweak.

[Tranca]

If there's a glaring issue in 1v1, but the problem isn't existant in other game modes, you just need to approach it very cautiously and open-minded, thus the balance evaluation of said problem in 2s/3s is equally important as the 1s, so you don't cause a completely dysfunctional game because you're just approaching it from a 1v1 perspective.

I guess, a comparison could be made that you can't simply just balance a game around the 1% (competetive pool) etc - because you still need to evaluate the other 99%, despite them not being a competetive enviroment. For an ex. Look at Mobas, there's a large shift in viable heroes in high-end, and there's a vast difference in the lower-tiers. So, the approach is not a nerf, or buff - it's a tweak.

I'm sorry, I've never been super good at understanding things. I don't understand your answer. T_T

If you were to put a statement on the homepage of the Elite homepage, which I assume is this: https://dawnofwar.info/

Would the statement include -

1) This mod is dedicated towards balancing around all game modes, with a slight emphasis placed on 1v1s.

or

2) This mod is dedicated towards balancing around all game modes, with a slight emphasis placed on 2v2s and 3v3s.

How do you want viewers to perceive Elite mod? An emphasis on team play, or 1v1s? I understand that pub stompers will always exist, and that perfect balance is unattainable... but, what game mode is the balance team focusing most of their efforts on?

[Oddnerd]

If it was necessary to choose between 1v1 or 3v3, I'd prefer it be 1v1. Because of the tight lanes of 3v3 it doesn't quite have as much of an emphasis on some of the finer elements of gameplay like map control and multi-tasking. Not to knock on 3v3 since 99% of my hours are on it, but 3v3 is more 1-dimensional in terms of gameplay than 1v1.

[Thunderhost]

Or maybe balance around the most played mode?

[Wise Windu]

If you were to put a statement on the homepage of the Elite homepage, which I assume is this: https://dawnofwar.info/

Would the statement include -

1) This mod is dedicated towards balancing around all game modes, with a slight emphasis placed on 1v1s.

or

2) This mod is dedicated towards balancing around all game modes, with a slight emphasis placed on 2v2s and 3v3s.

How do you want viewers to perceive Elite mod? An emphasis on team play, or 1v1s? I understand that pub stompers will always exist, and that perfect balance is unattainable... but, what game mode is the balance team focusing most of their efforts on?

If there's a clear balance issue in one game mode, it should be approached in a way that doesn't break the balance of another. Team games tend to have more "broken" combos just due to the fact that abilities across races can stack or be combined in ways that make them so. But those combos are counteracted and made less impactful by the fact that the other team can combine abilities as well. Sometimes, if there's an issue with abilities like this, it can be mitigated by decreasing the synergy between players without changing how it affects the player's own units. This way, there is no change to 1v1, and a decrease in power level in team games.

If there's an issue specifically with 1v1, though, the changes directly affect team games as well, because changes to 1v1s affect the individual player's units, and potentially teammates' units as well, since these usually come with stat changes or functional changes. So making changes to 1v1 tends to have a larger impact overall and should be considered more carefully. I guess in that way, you could say the balance is focused more on 1v1, if only because the changes need to be done more carefully and can affect all game modes. But again, even these changes can be mitigated by the general environment of team games (combos, doubling, etc). In my opinion, at least.

[Sturnn]

Well, for me, some aspects of the races are totaly different in 3vs3. I mean, in 1v1 you dont fight with whole army roster in one place becasue forces are split around the map so we have many, small figths. In 3vs3 we have lanes and acutally full roster of one army pushes in one place. And in that case it's quite often visible that some armies don't stande a chance versus other. Simple example. On the same lane Eldar can send shees, 2x DA and hero while SM is able to filed in the same time hero, tsm and 1 scouts squad. And actually its quite Amove for eldar (hero ties up tacs, shees and 2x DA deals with scouts and SM hero). Just an example to show my point.

[Wise Windu]

And in that case it's quite often visible that some armies don't stande a chance versus other.

At certain points in the game, sure. And the same can be said about 1v1. Different races have different advantages at different points in the game, depending on how it plays out. But if the player handles it well and plays more defensively or just controls units efficiently, or even just holds out for a teammate to bring help, the disadvantage is minimal in terms of the overall game state.

[Tranca]

And in that case it's quite often visible that some armies don't stande a chance versus other.

At certain points in the game, sure. And the same can be said about 1v1. Different races have different advantages at different points in the game, depending on how it plays out. But if the player handles it well and plays more defensively or just controls units efficiently, or even just holds out for a teammate to bring help, the disadvantage is minimal in terms of the overall game state.

Yep, yep. Some races are gonna have certain advantages at certain times in the game - sort of like chaos is really strong in t2, and ork can all-in in t1.

Understood.

Thank you very much for the responses!

[ytimk]

I think I can point out something in general which may have already been said in different ways throughout the thread (and site at large). Please correct if wrong:

- the sheer challenge of getting approximate balance in team games is exponentially more difficult than any 1v1 situation;
- various factors/possible situations (units, abilities, globals, stacking, resources, maps, bugs, mechanics, AI, pathing, player awareness, unexpected events etc) combine, clash, and escalate to such an extent that the whole process the modders have to go through (design, theory, implementation, testing, repeat till satisfied, etc) takes more time and hard work;
- they don't want to have to choose between disadvantaging one mode/playerbase over another;
- these are talented, but volunteer, modders who have jobs and lives to occupy them.

TL:DR - the modders want the best, most balanced experience across all modes. This is very hard and takes a lot of time and effort to do right.

[Xeno]

So LR Redeemer will loose its damage reduce aura and Eldars gain heavy inf armor for FD, cheaper DA, and will retain their Khaine Avatar aura.

Life can be so unfair :/

[Dark Riku]

The Fire Dragon change is actually a nerf (~fix imo) They first had a flat out 30% dmg reduction versus all ranged dmg.
But overall, yeah

[Cyris]

So LR Redeemer will loose its damage reduce aura and Eldars gain heavy inf armor for FD, cheaper DA, and will retain their Khaine Avatar aura.

Life can be so unfair :/

Many see the LR changes as buffs, as the 40 courage damage will mean it now suppresses squads hit by the flamers (in I think ~3.5 seconds?)
FD changes are massive nerfs. -30% damage and fire_resist_infantry is the current armor setup on them, which is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger then heavy_infantry armor, especially in T2.
DA is indeed a potential un-needed buff, but the unit still bleeds like a stuck pig.
Who thinks Avatar is in need of nerfs? That's news to me.

[Xeno]

With their movement speed it's still pretty strong combination. I didn't say that Avatar need any nerfs, but Eldar always have those godlike auras and it really hurts me that SM will lose this fraction of such power that LR provided :/ Courage damage is pretty nice though, I agree with that

[Ace of Swords]

LRR is meant to be a mobile base, not an AI snail, especially when In T3 tanks and AV tanks dominate everything else.

It's really a bad change, not just by itself but also a very bad thematic change to SM.

[Forestradio]

LRR is meant to be a mobile base, not an AI snail, especially when In T3 tanks and AV tanks dominate everything else.

It's really a bad change, not just by itself but also a very bad thematic change to SM.

qft

soft suppression on assault cannons and whatnot is fine, suppression on flamers is extremely questionable especially when there are two of them that can cover huge arcs

[Kvn]

With their movement speed it's still pretty strong combination. I didn't say that Avatar need any nerfs, but Eldar always have those godlike auras and it really hurts me that SM will lose this fraction of such power that LR provided :/ Courage damage is pretty nice though, I agree with that

And SM have massive amounts of inspiration and between-unit synergies. Just because race A has something that race B doesn't get doesn't mean that one has all the best equipment.

Losing the Aura doesn't suddenly make the LRR weak. The problem came from the fact that armies, especially Terminators, supported by that damage resist on top of the health regen and reinforcement aura became nigh-unmovable. It still has healing and reinforcement, but now that damage resist was swapped for more self-defense. Think of it this way, the LRR can now suppress Nobz/Genestealers/close-range AV units that are rushing it down, making it a bit more survivable when trying to pull it back from a concerted push, and slightly more dangerous for tanks to chase down given its increased melta damage.

Heavy infantry armor change is an incredibly massive nerf to Fire Dragons. If you were to consider their -30% ranged damage reduction as a baseline, they'll be taking somewhere between 50-80% extra damage from most sources, the same from regular melee, and very slightly less from piercing damage. Heavy infantry armor for them is in no way, shape, or form, a buff.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

With such few changes to Chaos, and 3 of them being straight nerfs, Could I suppose Chaos is reaching the desired state of being balanced? Or is something more in the shadows?

[Dark Riku]

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!

[Lulgrim]

You must know that song because of Derpland or Toilet, surely?

[Dark Riku]

It was pretty popular here in Belgium when I grew up
Didn't even know that Toilailee or Nurland know it too.

[Toilailee]

Never heard of that.

[evilmario5]

I would like to throw this out there what about t3 upgrade for strike squad to upgrade (upgrade cost 100rep 30p) into Interceptor squad.
(like how tac's to sternguard vet)
just an idea I just thought of.

[Lulgrim]

It was pretty popular here in Belgium when I grew up

It’s a Finnish group, I thought it was pretty obscure…

[egewithin]

Every rock band is underrated in this world.

[Psycho]

Will there be any changes in the future to guardsmen's deployable cover?

[Thunderhost]

It was pretty popular here in Belgium when I grew up

It’s a Finnish group, I thought it was pretty obscure…

Yeah they only sold 4 million copies or so worldwide