2.5.X Balance

[Crewfinity]

whoa yeah that sucks
give interceptors back their AV capability plz

[DandyFrontline]

whoa yeah that sucks
give interceptors back their AV capability plz

AV capabilities to Interceptors, and nerf GK SHI chaise capabilities vs vehicles, so ppl whould combine those units instead of just "build termies, call-in palas, call-in LRC - gg"

[Aetherion]

whoa yeah that sucks
give interceptors back their AV capability plz

Owait, so now interceptors are teleporting Tzeentch marines with pseudo slaughter (melee capability)? Abuse time

[Cheekie Monkie]

How about psilencers for terms/palas and psycannons for interceptors? Just a thought.

[bibotot]

- 6 man Astra Militarum HMG? Why?

More models for the LC to execute, more HP over all and so more survivability, some other things I'm sure I'm forgetting. It isn't because the race is supposed to be "blobby", so the comparison to Orks doesn't really mean anything.

HMG squads being too large make them very difficult to control, especially because they wear the exact same uniform as regular Guardsmen. I already have enough problem navigating between these two units when moving my whole army as well as between Command Squad Stormtroopers Bodyguards and normal Stormtroopers.

Renaming a number of units, including the Lictor Alpha into the Death Leaper and the Ravener Alpha into the Red Terror

Too location and hive specific, and there's also no indication that the models could even represent these more "legendary" versions. The Malan'tai was changed to the Neurothrope for that first reason as well.

Since there is one Swarmlord per Hive Fleet, I don't see any reason why there can't be an equivalent of Death Leaper and Red Terror in other Hive Fleets as well.

Aspiring Champions on Heretics make no sense. They should be Dark Apostle instead.

Dark Apostles are specific to the Word Bearers. Wouldn't make sense to have them for everyone.

Dark Apostle being a Word Bearer only is like saying Catachans Devils don't belong to Cadian battlegroup or Karskins have no place in Mordian Iron Guards or Librarians cannot be fielded in Black Templar or there can be no Khorne Daemons and Mark of Khorne units in an Emperor's Children army. Chaos as depicted in the game is undivided and not representing a particular warband but rather, the generic Chaos Space Marines themselves. Also, since he does power melee, why not give the model a power sword or power maul?

- Blight Grenade bug can lead to the infection lasting way longer than it should.

Do you have any replays of this happening? Hadn't actually heard about this bug until now.

Blight grenades infection jumping can last minutes. There are a few games where I have suffered this.

- Commissar and Sergeant simply add one more model each and then buff the rest of the squad.

Explain why?

[/quote]
All other officers add health and damage to squad. Why not these guys?

[Dark Riku]

HMG squads being too large make them very difficult to control, especially because they wear the exact same uniform as regular Guardsmen. I already have enough problem navigating between these two units when moving my whole army as well as between Command Squad Stormtroopers Bodyguards and normal Stormtroopers.

It's a big buff to the squad. Your inability to properly micro is not a good argument to change anything.

Since there is one Swarmlord per Hive Fleet, I don't see any reason why there can't be an equivalent of Death Leaper and Red Terror in other Hive Fleets as well.

Windu already explained the names. If they don't want to change them they aren't going to.

Dark Apostle being a Word Bearer only is like saying Catachans Devils don't belong to Cadian battlegroup or Karskins have no place in Mordian Iron Guards or Librarians cannot be fielded in Black Templar or there can be no Khorne Daemons and Mark of Khorne units in an Emperor's Children army. Chaos as depicted in the game is undivided and not representing a particular warband but rather, the generic Chaos Space Marines themselves. Also, since he does power melee, why not give the model a power sword or power maul?

Because Aspiring Champion is actually the fitting name for the leader of cultists.
This is going of my lore and TT knowledge. In the TT codex they are just called a champion while the Dark Apostle is an HQ choice.
They don't give him the visual of a power weapon because he doesn't do power melee

Blight grenades infection jumping can last minutes. There are a few games where I have suffered this.

Provide a replay then. If you keep passing the infection around it can stay for a long time...

All other officers add health and damage to squad. Why not these guys?

No they don't. All "officers" add HP and damage to the squads because they are models themselves. Only some add actual buffs to their squads.
The GM "officers" already add extra models and give you cheaper reinforcements! While the commissar also has stupid high damage stats.

[Crewfinity]

Thoughts on GK so far:

Rhino
I like the moving of rhino to t2 and purgs to t1. However, as it stands with rhino gaining vehicle armor to start as well as a reinforcement aura, its simply way too cheap. at 250/45 its way cheaper than a razorback, has higher health out of the game (500 versus 400) and has access to better weapons (80 piercing dps instead of 55, with the option for AV instead). I think it just needs a cost increase and it'll be in a much better place

Interceptors
interceptors are garbage now that they have inferno damage. they need AV utility to be a viable choice in T3 and the justicar really needs to get a psycannon like the other guys. I consider this a bug rather than an intended change. give them the purgation psycannons instead of the SS psycannons plz

IST
IST are kinda meh at 225, and the acolyte is almost always a better pick than the sergeant. can the sergeant give them back the speed buff? the tooltip still says he does but im pretty sure thats not current. also a faster throw animation for his spike grenade would help a lot, having a nade with no timer isnt much good when it takes 2 seconds to throw it, especially since its a defensive grenade to stop approaching units rather than an aggressive one to dislodge setup teams or wipe retreating squads.

Purifiers
purifiers still need either a cost decrease or reinforcement cost decrease. ogryns are cheaper to reinforce than they are now
compared to a dread they just seem like such a lacklustre purchase, and one that's likely to punish you heavily with the bleed they have.

Ops
Op changes are solid, much less toxic while still retaining some punch. I think they could start with the stun bomb, and gain infiltration and retreat breaking with the upgrade. but thats just me.

Bro Cap
losing his teleporter was good. losing the WaTH speed buff was a bit much imo, he's too slow and turns too slowly in t1 to really give any significant impact. setup teams are also much more punishing now since he got much worse at facechecking, the only hard counter OM has is IST nades. canticle could speed up ability cooldowns by even more and it would be fine. the other tanky heroes either have anti-kiting wargear, or some way to increase speed and get in faster (warboss/shoota/bitz, cl/bolter/worship, etc) so he really feels quite lacking now. his weapons are still awesome but he never has much of a chance to swing them since almost every unit can outrun/kite him with ease.

Strike Squad
nailed it with these guys. i really like the changes made here and they feel like a great unit, with much better scaling potential than before (although still quite pricy)

[Dark Riku]

Interceptors
interceptors are garbage now that they have inferno damage. they need AV utility to be a viable choice in T3 and the justicar really needs to get a psycannon like the other guys. I consider this a bug rather than an intended change. give them the purgation psycannons instead of the SS psycannons plz

It is a bug. It was done on accident

[saltychipmunk]

i second the interceptor squad leader needs a psi cannon. as it stands right now he is an effective waste of money when they aren’t deliberately rocking the swords and bolt pistols.

ist sarge is still quite awful for his heavy power cost and will almost always be second pick to the mr oversized chainsaw . quite literally an obligatory detector tax . like a scout sarge but shit.

i kind of forgot that the purifiers and vindicator assassin were units lol. between the changes to the strike squad and the introduction of the rhino as a t2 cheap av option i have never found myself with enough money to buy a purifier or a reason to buy the much squishier than a rhino while offering almost the same or less utility assassin.

dont really know what to think of the assassin right now.


i honestly didnt see a reason for investing into the bro cap. he lacks the chase potential now to make buying the halberd worth it. the power sword is good i guess but frankly losing the line breaking potential it gave really puts it down much lower on the investment totem pole. he is too slow to make the shorter ranged abilities he has useful since he can just be kited to hell. and the new CA while useful later in the game .. really lacks the impact it should have in early game since almost none of the t1 abilities available to gk are impactful enough .. or are in need a shorter cool down.

to be blunt there are simply more important and more effective uses of ones money than investing in the the bro cap for anything other than having another highish hp model to distract people with.

to be fair he is still kind of good at that role sine you can give him his hp armor and call it a day. but my god he lacks flare.

[Atlas]

I agree to certain extents with some of the OM feedback here.

The Nemesis Power Sword has really been indirectly buffed this patch, and I've gone for it basically every game I've played OM as so far. That +1 speed really matter for the Bro-Cap, the buff is great and it's pretty good damage as is.

I don't have enough to talk about the rhino atm. I feel like the HB Rhino might over-perform slightly now with the inbuilt vehicle armor and fairly cheap cost. As Crew pointed out, it's basically a better Razorback with some HP lost vs a Plated Razorback in exchange for cheaper and more DPS. Perhaps a small power cost increase to the HB?

I actually find it kind of odd that the IST sarg is only 65/25. Like some unwritten rule that all detector leaders should be 75/25 Anyway, as salty said the acolyte does more for you overall than the sargeant. I would not be against a shorter windup on the grenades in exchange for that req cost increase.

As a general note, the Canticle needs to have more of an impact than it does right now. It's effects feel very very minor and, as the Table Talk pointed out, most of the synergies it has occurs in T2. I'm no expert, but I would recommend just nerfing the actual HP stats on the Blessed Aegis, moving it back into T1, and then buffing the Mantle of Terra and moving that into T2. This way, the Aegis helps in T1 where he really needs it and the Canticle is there when the T2 units actually hit the field.

As a final note to Bro Cap Wargear, I feel that the Holy Armor of Titan needs some buffs. I haven't messed around with it too much, but my gut tells me it could do with an extended duration on the Immortal ability.

[bibotot]

This is going of my lore and TT knowledge. In the TT codex they are just called a champion while the Dark Apostle is an HQ choice.
They don't give him the visual of a power weapon because he doesn't do power melee

I thought in one of the replays Indrid mentions he does power melee much like the Slugga Nob. Not sure about that.

Do you play the TT? I do. The Chaos Cultist Champion in the TT is not a Space Marine. He is just a normal human. A tactic commonly employed on TT is to attach the Dark Apostle to the Cultists to prevent them from running away. Also, Commissars are HQ as well, and you can upgrade them to Imperial Guards squads and the Lord General.

[Dark Riku]

I thought in one of the replays Indrid mentions he does power melee much like the Slugga Nob. Not sure about that.

Indrid occasionally gets things wrong. He might have just misspokenl. Quite normal to make small mistakes like that when uploading so much.

Do you play the TT? I do.

Yes Last sunday I won a highlander style tournament with 20 peeps. Was lots of fun, cool change of pace.

The Chaos Cultist Champion in the TT is not a Space Marine. He is just a normal human.

Yeah, I know. But Relic decided to design this diffrently. So w/e.

A tactic commonly employed on TT is to attach the Dark Apostle to the Cultists to prevent them from running away.

I dunno about your meta, or if you go to tournaments, but that already sounds like a list that won't do well at all

Also, Commissars are HQ as well, and you can upgrade them to Imperial Guards squads and the Lord General.

Yeah, Relic design decisions.

[Sturnn]

WSE wargear also knockbacks constantly - is it on purpose? If yes I would say its kinda unfair.

[Adeptus Noobus]

WSE wargear also knockbacks constantly - is it on purpose? If yes I would say its kinda unfair.

I moved the post you are referring to to the bugs/issues section. But to answer your question, the "Heavy Gauge Filament" works as intended as far as I know (and I have tested it). I does only knockback single targets and only once every 4 seconds, which is fine. He does however now have a 60% chance to knockback on hit.

[Sturnn]

I does only knockback single targets and only once every 4 seconds, which is fine. He does however now have a 60% chance to knockback on hit.

So, for example, it hits my hero and knocks him back. He tries to get up and then it is 60% chance that he will knockedback again?

[Adeptus Noobus]

I does only knockback single targets and only once every 4 seconds, which is fine. He does however now have a 60% chance to knockback on hit.

So, for example, it hits my hero and knocks him back. He tries to get up and then it is 60% chance that he will knockedback again?

The Codex is not 100% clear on this wether the 4 second rule only applies when the ability is used or not. I guess that is the way it works now: 4 second rule when ability is active and 60% chance of knockback on every hit when firing normally.

[Sturnn]

Ok, clear. Many thanks.

[Thunderhost]

Just tested HGS and it didn't do KB when the ability wasn't activated.

[Wise Windu]

The ability itself can't knock back a model more than once every 4 seconds. If the model was knocked back before the ability was used, it can.

[ChokoBambus]

The most hillariously broken unit in Elite is the purgation squad.

It has:
- decent range
- no setup
- insane AoE damage
- 300 HP per model
- suppresses
- has an anti melee ability
- costs only 300/30

[saltychipmunk]

The most hillariously broken unit in Elite is the purgation squad.

It has:
- decent range
- no setup
- insane AoE damage
- 300 HP per model
- suppresses
- has an anti melee ability
- costs only 300/30

noise marines are more annoying to me.

[Caeltos]

The most hillariously broken unit in Elite is the purgation squad.

It has:
- decent range
- no setup
- insane AoE damage
- 300 HP per model
- suppresses
- has an anti melee ability
- costs only 300/30

Sounds like a setup team, just with less range and more added health to cover for it.

Even a fart can make something sound broken when you only bring up the pros;

Kasrkins
- Insane range
- Better LoS then most troops
- > 2 < GRENADES
- 1 Grenade with almost instant detonate timer
- 1 Grenade that deals billion av damage
- Better hp regen then standard troops
- Is one of the 3 units in the game to have 50% faster capping rate!
- Has insane damage!
- Grenade Launcher that deals great damage & KNOCKBACKS
- Costs less then TERMINATORS

So get off your high horse, or fuck off already.

[Zannin]

Hahaha how you DARE to say something bad about GK, the race with no balance problems, the poster child of Elite Mod. Get off your high horse you peasants, play the game the way it is meant to play, do not complain.

Poor Caletos. I feel for you. You do something for free, you show your genius to the world and those bastards have the nerve to criticize your work.

BTW is there a reason that GK Terminators have the retreat option?

[Caeltos]

BTW is there a reason that GK Terminators have the retreat option?

Yes.

Hahaha how you DARE to say something bad about GK, the race with no balance problems, the poster child of Elite Mod. Get off your high horse you peasants, play the game the way it is meant to play, do not complain.

Poor Caletos. I feel for you. You do something for free, you show your genius to the world and those bastards have the nerve to criticize your work.

There's a difference between critizing and just flat out complaining and being obnoxious. I'm much very aware that GK hasn't been exactly problem-free, so there's no need to passive aggressive about it. Grey Knights isn't an exclusive issue either, I mean - the Neurothrope(Aka Doom of Malan'tai) , Sternguards, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons - the list goes on all have had some issues, but it's a process that takes time to fine-tune. Just like any AAA game developers do whenever new content is released, it's never like 100% polished at released.

I don't appreciate when people just complain and don't do anything to be a part of the solution, and instead just exacerbate the problem. If you want to find the solution, you need to approach it from both the pros & cons perspective when it comes to balance. This is especially true when there's no concensus that has been made in general, and the opinions are torn.

The mod isn't perfect, and it probably never will be. All factions will have their issues, be that underperforming aspects or overpowering ones. Thinking that every single unit, every ability, cost effiency, energy effiency and all these variables will be 100% perfect is down-right silly. People will always find something to nag about, you can't please everybody.

If people want to help out, I'd prefer if they were constructive, well-thought out and open-minded, rather than be loud and simple. I'm sure there are people who are capable of providing constructive feedback, they just decide not to - because they don't want to sit down and write an essay on a forum about their opinion, and honestly - they just want things to be perfect from the get-go.

People are more inclined to be kind and friendly and recepetive of feedback when it's presented in a nice-manner, and it'll have the opposite effect if it's presented passive-aggressive(or just agressively). It goes abit with the treat others as to how you'd like to be treated yourself.

If people don't like the mod, that's just fine and dandy. You don't have to play it. If you don't have fun while playing, then don't play it. If you prefer retail, that's alright, then play retail. Nobody is forcing you to be glued infront of the PC to play this mod. Play the game if you think it's fun, play ELITE if it's your cup of tea, if not - don't.

[Zannin]

And that reason is...? Because right now it creates a 'high reward - no risk' situation, when GK can just jump in, snipe (or at least force off) setup team and then ran away. Chaos Sorcerer allows similar option, but a) it costs energy, b) requires at least minimal micro, c) is harder to execute. And we are talking about TERMINATORS, a huge (in terms of game changing), slow, but tanky as hell unit. And the damage they do is not something you can ignore.

In my opinion Terms should be used carefully, keeping in mind that losing them will hurt. What's the point of creating a situation, when losing them is simply...impossible?

And could you then elaborate why do you think ChokoBambus should fuck off into the Warp only after listing the pros of one unit? What are the cons of Purgation Squad? I am honestly curious about your point of view.

[Cyris]

Please Cael, don't feed this troll.

Instead of writing that last post, do another "Design notes & questions" thread!

[Zannin]

What exactly makes me a troll?

[Caeltos]

And could you then elaborate why do you think ChokoBambus should fuck off into the Warp only after listing the pros of one unit? What are the cons of Purgation Squad? I am honestly curious about your point of view.

Because Choko has literally bombarded me with stupid, insulting and complaints on steam every.single.god.damn.day. He doesn't stop there, and does it on the forum, and he complains in most of his games he plays as well. It's a toxic, annoying attitude that nobody is really welcoming with open arms. Choko CAN BE constructive, he just needs to do it more consistently. He has been constructive before, but he is more emotional about this rather than constructive.

Purgation squad cons;
- Significantly shorter range then all other setup teams in the game
- The damage type is incredibly lackluster versus high-hp pool targets (For an ex. even Commanders) can practically just walk up and tie-them up. Whereas other setup-teams are capable absolutely destroying them if they get to close for the medium/short distance modifiers to come effect.
- They are more expensive then other setup-teams. This is even more true when compiling T1 eco dumps.

As for Grey Knight Terminators
- They've seen several iterations, and they're going to get a small tune-up in 2.5.1 (It's small in terms of changes, but the general gameplay changes are somewhat big). They're designed to the bulwark of the Ordo Malleus army in late-game. This is partially in-due with how Ordo Malleus have no means of vehicle-based play, and they're more reliant on their infantry to the heavy-lifters.

Thus, the Grey Knight Terminators need find a fine-balance of being dependant and capable of doing alot of theses heavy-lifting. Whereas Space Marines/Chaos for an ex. are more potent to be flexible in how they approach their late-game. This is intentional by design - but Ordo Malleus shapes their late-game focus via their earlier-purchases. For an ex. Vindicare Assassin approach, or Librarian- or potentially even both. (Altho, you might be sacrificing alot of potential pop-cap for it)

As a result, the Retreat is introduced to pave-way for newcomers to not be too punished severely, but of course from a competetive-standpoint it has to be tolerable. As a means to differentiate the Terminator variants, the Grey Knight Terminators are suppose to be more psyker(ability) oriented then their other Space Marine/Chaos countepart, who have other distinguishable features.

[Sturnn]

As a result, the Retreat is introduced to pave-way for newcomers to not be too punished severely, but of course from a competetive-standpoint it has to be tolerable. .

Then pls give other OM unit some ability to recall them (like SM's lib) and remove retreat option or give retreat to all terminators in the game. At this moment playing vs retreatable terminators is a nightmare.

[Zannin]

Because Choko has literally bombarded me with stupid, insulting and complaints on steam every.single.god.damn.day. He doesn't stop there, and does it on the forum, and he complains in most of his games he plays as well. It's a toxic, annoying attitude that nobody is really welcoming with open arms.

Oh. Well, then your response seems reasonable. I would have told him to fuck off much quicker and much harsher.

And the concept of being a bulwark of an army is, in my opinion, a good idea. That's what Terminators should be. But I have to insist, giving them the Retreat option is not the way to go. It creates too much leeway for worse players, it makes making bad choices less punishing and in the hands of a better player is an easy way to exploiting an option that is much harder to fight against than it is to execute (if you know what I mean, english is not my native language and I might have made my thoughts confusing).

Unfortunetly I do not have any proposition how to resolve such an issue. Good concept of retreating Terms is Chaos Sorcerer teleport. It still can save them, but requires..well. Micro. It needs preparation. It can be punished.

And thanks for listing cons of Purgation.