2.5 Ordo Malleus Tactics

[Guilliman]

Hey,

Since the Grey Knights...ummm....Ordo malleus got alot of changes in 2.5, if people can post any interesting or new ways to play units. I find that now people seem okay with people playing GKs again. Here are some questions/observations I have noticed before:

1. Brother captain: Does anyone have any good builds? I think the biggest thing I miss is the teleporter. The combination of toned-down WATH (no longer buffs BC speed) and lack of teleporter really leaves me wondering what to do with him. I tried to play him more like a CL to tank but he doesn't seem to good at that. The hammer has always been my favorite with the special the weapon itself is so so and expensive. Any good builds out there?

2. Purifiers: I never really built them. I know they are suppose to be a good melee squad but there are other T2 stuff I rather build. Anyone use these guys?

3. Vindicare: I really like him and have had good success with him. The ordo really don't have great anti-vehicle options, the vindicare has been doing well for me. Also switching back between anti infantry vs vehicle makes him very versatile. The other thing I like about him is his small foot print. I try to keep him under a tree or near objects and alot of times people don't seem to notice him. A great option and almost always build.

4. Paladins: Sad no longer a base unit (probably justified to move as a call in. Still an awesome unit.

5. Interceptors: I never got these guys. I am not sure why tier 3, it is hard to pick these guys over GK termis, paladins and LRs. Anyone have a good use for them? They seem like ASM with knockback with added ability to switch between melee and shootiness with psy guns.

Any other tactics people have found to be good. I have been more of a SM player but started playing GKs little before 2.5 came out. It seems like people don't oppose them as much in 2.5 whereas before alot of games would have NO GKs in their title ha ha.

[Crewfinity]

1. Brother captain: Does anyone have any good builds? I think the biggest thing I miss is the teleporter. The combination of toned-down WATH (no longer buffs BC speed) and lack of teleporter really leaves me wondering what to do with him. I tried to play him more like a CL to tank but he doesn't seem to good at that. The hammer has always been my favorite with the special the weapon itself is so so and expensive. Any good builds out there?

With the speed nerf and losing the teleporter, BC is now painfully slow. he's no longer that great of a side capper/solo unit due to his slowness and not matching up with a lot of units well. in particular he struggles to do much vs t1 melee since he has no default CC ability. if you try to send him off solo he's likely going to get kited and focus fired. the sword and unending purge both help with this in t1, by giving him added speed and durability. in general if you want him to go in and tie up setup teams you'll probably want one of the two. he's also not as good at linebreaking with the changes, so he's better off in the middle of your army giving those AOE buffs than leading the line. any other weapon besides the sword will lend him to counter initiation better since he'll not land many hits trying to chase after enemy units. giving him the sword lets you make some big pushes in tier one, with the added durability on either high impact strike squads or on IST with the acolytes, which gives you AOE healing on top of the damage reduction.
Try to play less aggressive with him and leave him in a more supporting role.

-Halberd is good at murdering ASM or other HI that are trying to mess up your lines. no longer a go-to as its tough to make it have much impact besides counter-initiation. the splash is nice but not that big of a deal, dont expect to go around soloing dedicated melee squads and dont buy this for crowd control.
-unending purge is a really good sustain wargear, as it makes him almost impossible to finish off in t1 for low-dps races like SM.
-hammmer+vortex+purified blades isnt terrible as a crowd control build. hammer can scare off melee squads while the vortex can be really good if you set it up with purgation or an ops stun bomb.
-warding staff is really only good if you have purifiers or terminators already.

2. Purifiers: I never really built them. I know they are suppose to be a good melee squad but there are other T2 stuff I rather build. Anyone use these guys?

I quite like them. they're best to get if you're ahead, they make excellent solo units/side cappers/retreat killers. they have a buuuunch of health and dps and go really well with the librarian. they can get shut down by suppression but they function quite well in a counter initiation role. they also have a lot of synergy with purgation as protectors and using psychic field on snared units. they will bleed you if youre careful so dont get into fights you cant win or stay in too long vs dedicated melee.

3. Vindicare: I really like him and have had good success with him. The ordo really don't have great anti-vehicle options, the vindicare has been doing well for me. Also switching back between anti infantry vs vehicle makes him very versatile. The other thing I like about him is his small foot print. I try to keep him under a tree or near objects and alot of times people don't seem to notice him. A great option and almost always build.

purgation are my go-to AV option. but that's just personal preference
his new ability will reveal targets he fires on in the fog of war for 10 seconds. so that vehicle thats just getting out of sight wil now be completely revealed once he fires a shot, allowing for maybe that last shot that will take it out. also good for scouting out enemy positions by shooting them

4. Paladins: Sad no longer a base unit (probably justified to move as a call in. Still an awesome unit.

yep

5. Interceptors: I never got these guys. I am not sure why tier 3, it is hard to pick these guys over GK termis, paladins and LRs. Anyone have a good use for them? They seem like ASM with knockback with added ability to switch between melee and shootiness with psy guns.

they're broken right now with inferno damage instead of explosive. normally they're your dedicated AV/anti-all unit in t3. their nades are fucking awesome as well, one is like a melta bomb and the other is a grenade that suppresses and does damage that has no energy costs. like cyris said their melee is really underwhelming compared to the awesomsauce that are psycannons. they're much better than terminators/paladins vs transports or other quick vehicles.

[Forestradio]

listen to crewfinity's and cyris's advice/replays, since they are basically the only players that still play OM

[Cyris]

Quick and dirty.

1- Still experimenting. Sword + Purge is an inexpensive way to make him very potent at tanking / tying up in T1, and adding Vortex goes well. Lash is now more responsive, so a reasonable choice in T2 against ranged squad leaders / sub-commanders. Halberd still decent when paired with Purge (for the movespeed) as counter initiation agianst melee. BC has been nerfed real (and justifiably) hard, so you need to focus on using him as a support, and less of a one man arrmy.

2- Purifiers are great for finishing off enemies you have out-teched or to exploit enemy compositions that lack suppresion/melee counters. This is admittedly a bit narrow of a use, but they preform well in there. Do not get them if there is the threat of significant melee from your enemy, Purifiers are overpriced and bleed power badly, so will be in trouble if the engagements become attrition fights. Comboing them with libby helps a lot against melee, but this is a very large investment (like 800/150 after upgrades, more if you want Warding from BC) that lacks AV. Generally, I think Purifiers will get the buffs/role focus they need after various OP elements of OM have been brought in line. For now, use them in the above mentioned scenarios mostly. Their chase-kill is the best OM has, so try to utilize that. Flank with them, or hold them in reserve to counter-initiate / cleanup.

3- Yeah, VA is amazing. Like, super amazing. Like, he should be your first T2 purchase in nearly every matchup and every situation. Like, I still think he needs nerfs he's so good. Besides him, OM actually have some pretty versatile AV capabilities (as in, a lot of it is anti-all) to compliment him with, I did a bigger post on it here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2373#p51838 OM's biggest T2 vehicle problem is high health melee walkers, where the lack of snare and reliance on dps over spike damage starts to hurt.

4- Still the best callin terminator, so not gonna complain

5- Get them against battle tanks. Now that Pallies can't retreat, battle tanks are again OM's big T3 weakness. INT do (well, did, and will again in 2.5.1) really well against them. They are a bit niche, but they compliment many compositions by adding ranged firepower, and they really love any surviving SS Justicar Purification spells they can get. Do NOT use them in melee, unless it's against ranged squads, or lone T1 melee squads. And even then, firing from cover with the psycannons will often bleed more from whoever you are shooting at. Most T2/3 scaled melee squads will wreck a fresh INT squad. I'd generaly recommend never, ever, ever getting the Justicar on them. It's extra pop and no more ranged damage, and will tempt you into thinking of them as ajump troop. They are not! They are T3 warpspiders who have to wait a second before pulling out their melee weapons.

[Tex]

As far as I know, the power sword allows the BC to face check setup teams. He just doesn't get a speed buff with his regular battle cry. Feel free to correct me on this however. In terms of tankiness, you can easily replace the "aeges effect" with unending purge.

[Cyris]

As far as I know, the power sword allows the BC to face check setup teams. He just doesn't get a speed buff with his regular battle cry. Feel free to correct me on this however. In terms of tankiness, you can easily replace the "aeges effect" with unending purge.

This is all accurate. BC no longer gets +1 speed from WATH, but he does get +1.5 speed from Improved WATH that the sword gives. Purge still gives +1 speed if at less then 50% health. These two wargears are relatively cheap (100/20 each, 200/40 total) and the BC becomes rather tanky for T1 and moves at speed 6.5 at some times (for 15 seconds, then 25 seconds of cooldown.)

[evilmario5]

listen to crewfinity's and cyris's advice/replays, since they are basically the only players that still play OM

not quite true Forestradio I too play OM

I do have some combo's ive done based on what your facing
3v3 mass infantry double or triple strike squad with incinerators, one normal purgation squad and Brother captain with is nemesis sword for exstra speed for bc and army to run up and burn there army which since each strike squad does 20 courage damage and the purgation squad doing 25 courage damage.

Courage is essentially a health value, but instead of being killed when the courage goes to zero, the unit is suppressed.
so mobile setup army

another combo is brother captain mid game with termy librarian with his Codicum Aeternum upgrade to give BC the time to get close to setup teams or quick cap VP's late game with this is termy Librarian with both upgrades and BC with his tanky build hammer/or nemesis sword, unending purge and holy aromor of titian for caping Vp's even with 1 army protecting it.

purgation psycanon squad with rhino with heavy bolter upgrade+ maybe your starting ist for repairs to rhino and Acolyte Leader upgrade for healing to help purgation.

[Aetherion]

The other thing I like about him is his small foot print. I try to keep him under a tree or near objects and alot of times people don't seem to notice him. A great option and almost always build.

He is nearly as stealthy as a beamy loota from FoW, better when he is out of range and no one shoots him when he momentarily reveals himself when shooting.

Interceptors: Might I just request an increased rotation rate so they can better target rear armour of the tanks? Otherwise, they are a good versatile unit (assuming "psycannon" bug is fixed)

Paladins: High risk, high reward units. Like SM TH/SS termis, without a librarian's gate and VoT support. Ward, WATH are the only things that provide direct support (maybe a reinforcing rhino). Very all in unit imo

Purgation I think found their place in T1, face checks melee builds and blobs that cannot stop them from coming close. Combos well with stun nade to provide constant dps at close range, where in T1 strikes can melee decently and IST nades can come into play.

I am finding the 1-1-1-1 build to be very versatile for GK, with the option of skipping one of the T1.5 units depending on the matchup or just an extra IST for capping/nading purposes. Transitions to T2 easily with rhino for fire support/sustainability, vindicare for bleeding/AV or libby into extra melee CC.

Purifiers: good brawlers and following up the BC when charging (sic them on the unit the BC was chasing and turn the BC to a closer target). Have experienced weird casts of psychic field where the justicar was knocked down when casting and he casts it again despite having no energy, resulting in double psychic fields.

BC: Vortex should be an accessory to pair with Mantle for spell spammer builds, otherwise he'll be spamming....psychic lash? Idk it just seems to make more sense. Vortex is a good initiation tool to force the enemy to start running before the army gets in range. Also, the number of people aware of its potency doesn't seem too high. Purified blades is still lackluster, the passive KB doesn't really hurt dedicated melee squads that few of your units want to be near with a ten foot poll and can thus take advantage of. Weapons are generally decent, though I wish something would give him a ranged buff, so he can do something more than tickle light infantry without having to charge headlong into a wall of dakka.

May post again when I learn more about OM

[Forestradio]

Like SM TH/SS termis, without a librarian's gate and VoT support. Ward, WATH are the only things that provide direct support

Try a terminator librarian with paladins for shrouding and might of titan, as well as sanctuary to dominate melee fights/cover their retreat ^^

[Guilliman]

Thanks for the tips so far. In regards to:

1. VA: Does he auto acquire targets based on his firing mode? For example if he switched to anti-vehicle rounds does he automatically shoot at vehicles and if anti-infantry he goes for infantry?

Also I am not clear on that 2.5 change where he "lights" up a target?

2. BC: What is the deciding factor of the halberd vs hammer. I have been trying to use the sword more to enhance WATH which I like so far. I know the halberd has some splash damage and the hammer has the special knock back attack. I wold like to have the BC with some anti heavy/vehicle punch, is the hammer good for this? I haven't played test but it seems like the hammer isn't awesome against heavies which leaves me wondering if the halberd is a better choice since it does splash damage.

[Raven]

Hammer is good if you need the knockback against fast, light infantry, like Banshees or Bloodletters, and since the weapon is classified as normal melee, the damage will be good against them.

Against heavy and super-heavy infantry, the halberd will be more useful as it does power melee damage.

EDIT: Come to think of it, perhaps the hammer could be updated to have slight splash damage to make up for its lower speed - either that, or maybe give it a knockback chance like the FC's thunder hammer. But then again, that may be slightly OP; I only suggest it because the BC doesnt have very good mobility anyways.

[Crewfinity]

Thanks for the tips so far. In regards to:

1. VA: Does he auto acquire targets based on his firing mode? For example if he switched to anti-vehicle rounds does he automatically shoot at vehicles and if anti-infantry he goes for infantry?

Also I am not clear on that 2.5 change where he "lights" up a target?

2. BC: What is the deciding factor of the halberd vs hammer. I have been trying to use the sword more to enhance WATH which I like so far. I know the halberd has some splash damage and the hammer has the special knock back attack. I wold like to have the BC with some anti heavy/vehicle punch, is the hammer good for this? I haven't played test but it seems like the hammer isn't awesome against heavies which leaves me wondering if the halberd is a better choice since it does splash damage.

As far as i know his target prioritization will not change, you have to manually target vehicles.

halberd vs heavy infantry (CSM, SM). hammer if you need crowd control versus melee. both do almost nothing to vehicles but halberd will do slightly more than hammer. i've also finished off a couple avatars using the halberd (power melee is really good vs superheavy armor)

[Aetherion]

I have a question for the OM dread; when to get the plasma cannon or flamer? Either default or melee seems to have a much more applicable role.
And when is the LRC most useful?

[Crewfinity]

plasma if you're trying to deal with a ranged blob or HI or if there isnt any melee on the field. particularly good vs setup teams since it will knock them back.
flamer... pretty much never. ideally you would get it vs light infantry blobs or something but its not usually better than your other choices.

LRC is most useful when you can support it with infantry to hold the center of the map. huge damage to all unit types and reinforcement means that you should be able to hold against most anything. good engagement opener as well

[Atlas]

I'm actually pretty sour about the plasma dread because it actually has lower range than the standard mounted heavy bolter, and that eats imo :/
But I must admit, I haven't tried out the flamer dread all that much.

[Crewfinity]

its really annoying when you're trying to shoot something at the edge of range and the dread constantly misfires -_____-

flamer dread is just so meh. outclassed so hard by the banewolf in every aspect possible.

[Guilliman]

Yeah I hardly ever get the dread. It is hella expensive for what it does. I have been doing the VA which is way cheaper to help deal with AV and rather use the gas to try to get to tier 3 faster for the awesome termis. I am not sure what would make getting the OM dread worth it since it is the most expensive dread there. Before 2.5 I tried to make getting a dread a thing but haven't found a good use for it...and losing it makes it all the more painful.

[Tex]

Plasma dread works fine if you use attack ground instead of relying on its attack. I feel like the obvious thing to do (which might end up making it too strong) is allowing it to finish its attack even if the target walks outside of range.

I have tried to use the flamer dread so many times, and have been let down every single time haha. This thing needs to retain AV utility. An expenditure of this size needs to work better than a purgation squad. It's that simple.
I was thinking it would be neat if somehow the flames were less focused on massive damage output to LI units, and more so focused on providing negative status disruptions to enemy units. With less damage, it wouldn't be outrageous to increase its weapon range by a bit, thus making it a pillar to anchor an infantry push.

The negative status spam would be something along these lines:
1) vs vehicles, flame cannon provides a 20%(?) snare
2) inferno cannon does a slightly increased courage damage from current value (50)
3) inferno cannon gets an ability that gives it a 50% chance to stun it's targets on every attack for 10 seconds. 40 second cooldown.

Thoughts?

[Cyris]

Inferno Dread is really bad. It is worse then a Purgation squad at controlling melee or fighting swarms of ranged infantry, scales badly and costs a lot. The vanilla bolter is almost always better in these scenarios, peeling off models and threatening to swap to melee or plasma cannon. The Plasma cannon is also often prefered over the flamer even against infantry swarms, since it counters setup and vehicles as well, and tends to CC more often. There are a lot of aspects to this weapon that are lackluster, and altering even one of them would go a long way. I like the idea of associating the flamer with various debuffs. Here's some of the things I think are bad about the weapon, and then some things that could possible change.

1- 3s burst with FOTM means many misfires, which leads to a high amount of micro required for mediocre rewards. Unlike purgation with their 1s burst followed by .3s cooldown, the inferno fires constantly for 3s at one target, then goes on 2s cooldown. Sounds great right? In practice, this means it often ends up firing for a second, then losing it's target and going on cooldown. FOTM ends up working against this more often then not, since a way to micro around this is to move the unit closer to what you want to fire at, then start firing so them kiting won't help. However, the FOTM will kick in as soon as a unit gets within range, making this setup difficult. This can be solved by forcing melee, to catch the flames on the way in, but now you bump into problem number 2...
2- Vulnerability to melee squads is high. This guy is a short range walker without melee resistance, much like the SM melta dread. Unlike that guy though, no AV means there are even more scenarios where "going deep" to use the flamer will backfire badly. So instead, keep it back and guard your army from melee? Well, not really, cause...
3- It only suppresses once it fires at a target for the full 3s. The burst problems above cause this to be real frustrating. By contrast, purgation deal 75 courage per second, and more if in close range.

There are a lot of ways this unit could go in to make it work better. The question more is, what is the goal of the unit? It seems like it wants to fight and suppress swarmy ranged infantry, and/or defend your units from melee rushdown like a Purgation. This is a big part of the problem though, in it's current state it's worse at these jobs then the Purg and more expensive. It's big advantage is having vehicle armor, tons of health and heavy melee, but it also doesn't even have a special ability like purgs do, and purgs can threaten upgrading to Psycannons while the Inferno is at the end of it's upgrade path. So, some mutually exclusive possibilities:

1- Remove FOTM. It will be tons easier to move this guy up, then park it in place and actually CHOSE the target it should fire at. Maybe this is a nerf, but my instinct is that it will work a lot better.
2- Change firing pattern/damage to be a lot more like Purgs. 2s burst, .5s cooldown. Courage damage up to 75 (or increased courage damage when close)
3- A different firing pattern change would be 1s burst with no cooldown and a 2s reload after 3s. This would mean that it can re-find targets between each burst, but then still have 2s of downtime.
4- Replace suppression with a slow.
5- Give it Maelstrom.
6- Give it a flamer area of effect spell like most other flamers.
7- Give it some other new ability, like 2x courage damage for 10s, or the stun Tex talked about.

TL:DR - Inferno Dread is bad when compared to other OM units, and bad when compared to the Dread's other upgrades. A lot of this comes from it misfiring, failing to suppress, and being very vulnerable if it acts like a linebreaker.

[Crewfinity]

I kinda think the flamer dread is limited in its design space. Discounting the current stats and thinking conceptually, when would I prefer a dread with a big flamer over melee/plasma cannon?

Unlike the bane wolf it can be kited since it's so slow, and is much more vulnerable to AV for the same reason. It has to get close up and expose itself to have much effect and has no escape mechanisms. Its also facing a great deal of internal competition from purgation, which scale better and fit in most compositions well already.


Solution? Change the damage type of the heavy incinerator to Melta. Gone shall be the days of the underpowered flamer dread

[egewithin]

I was testing Force Sword in a few matches. I liked it. It fits for my all T1 and T2. Gives him the speed that he needs. Important point is ; I didn't miss the Halberd at all! He is just smacking Tacs and taking models. The damage of sword is satisfying. And don't worry if you need hammer of something. I get sword agianst SM - CSM - IG - OM - and maybe Eldar. I don't suggest vs nids because Genestealers are super cool today and it is more often to see them. If there is a melee rush ==> Hammer. See; everyone is happy now.

[Cyris]

I kinda think the flamer dread is limited in its design space. Discounting the current stats and thinking conceptually, when would I prefer a dread with a big flamer over melee/plasma cannon?

A fair point, but currently it's a worse flamer then a Purg squad. I'd love to see it get some straight usability or potency buffs in the flamer department before throwing in the towel. I WANT to like it, there is no other flamer walker out there, so it brings something interesting and different (more interesting then melee/AC walker for sure.) I love the idea of marching it at squads of GM and roasting them if I've handled their AV somehow, or they skipped AV out of greed. But it doesn't even do this well - the melee variant will cause almost the same bleed/zone control and can fight off Ogryns, melee commanders, brings CC etc. And the Plasma does this more reliably all without even needing to get close.

As a side, your edited post up top is awesome Crew. Pretty much everything is spot on in my experience. Do mess around with VA more, I think he's better then you are giving him credit for I'll TRY to use Purifiers more...

Aetherion also, great post. I'm not into the Vortex change you mentioned, but lining up BC wargears differently to allow for more focused support builds I love. 1-1-1-1 is very interesting to play as, it presents a variety of threats and is rewarding to micro properly.

[egewithin]

What if we change flamer with a lascannon ?

[Crewfinity]

Sounds super OP and OM already has access to a vehicle mounted lascannon with the rhino.

If anything I would replace it with the multi melta. But I'd rather just see the incinerator actually find a good niche in the OM roster. At least give it a snare like the bane wolf

[Tex]

I actually don't mind the simple and elegant fix that cyris suggested: just give the flames a flat snare of 20-25% to all targets. Stack this on top of the very mild suppression effect and voila, you have a very clear role for this dreadnaught.