2.5.X Balance

[Cyris]

Purgation squad cons;
- Significantly shorter range then all other setup teams in the game
- The damage type is incredibly lackluster versus high-hp pool targets (For an ex. even Commanders) can practically just walk up and tie-them up. Whereas other setup-teams are capable absolutely destroying them if they get to close for the medium/short distance modifiers to come effect.
- They are more expensive then other setup-teams. This is even more true when compiling T1 eco dumps.

To continue:
They also have high upkeep. I actually really hope this gets changed.
Their turn speed is abysmal.
Bleeding a model off them reduces their potency significantly. Since each member represents 1/3 of the damage/suppression, any losses hurt bad. NM and "normal" setup teams don't have this weakness.
Even normal melee units can ALMOST get into tie them up if they charge straight at them.

[Crewfinity]

terminators can only retreat once every 5 minutes. I would take the ability to buy a predator over retreatinators any day.

[Asmon]

Plus it makes them vulnerable to LA :>

[Adeptus Noobus]

Plus it makes them vulnerable to LA :>

His ability does not work on them, sadly.

[Asmon]

OP LA is disappointed to hear so.

[Forestradio]

Units should be evaluated in the context of the race (meta, support, economy, synergy, etc) that they find themselves within, not compared to the units of other races in a vacuum.

Why?

Two reasons:

First off, it turns balance discussions into a silly back and forth discussion where player x lists all the disadvantages of a unit and player y lists all the advantages. This is pointless and rarely contributes meaningful feedback.

Second, and more importantly, every single race plays differently in this game, and they should play differently. Imbalance is not a result of differences.

My personal suggestion is that Grey Knight Terminators have their retreat removed and their speed reduced to 4.5, their health buffed to ~4800. Perhaps a small dps increase as well, to older 2.3 levels, in order to make them more potent at sustained fighting.

[egewithin]

My personal suggestion is that Grey Knight Terminators have their retreat removed and their speed reduced to 4.5, their health buffed to ~4800. Perhaps a small dps increase as well, to older 2.3 levels, in order to make them more potent at sustained fighting.

As for Grey Knight Terminators
- They've seen several iterations, and they're going to get a small tune-up in 2.5.1 (It's small in terms of changes, but the general gameplay changes are somewhat big). They're designed to the bulwark of the Ordo Malleus army in late-game. This is partially in-due with how Ordo Malleus have no means of vehicle-based play, and they're more reliant on their infantry to the heavy-lifters.

So in a another way to answer ; GK Termies has retreat because GK late game is already depends on Terminators and some options makes it much easyer to play. We don't have to make this game more diffucult to play and we shouldn't do it. A retreat with 5 min cool down can not be the end of the world. Can't say the same for Paladins however.

[ChokoBambus]

@Caeltos:

First of NO!, Choko has not bombarded you with stupid complaints and shit every day so stop exaggerating. There may have been a few instances of salt but saying how i was obnoxious every single day to you is flat out lying, considering I only wrote you 3 times or so.

Secondly, I am not someone who is talking out of his asshole, and I do in fact have intricate knowledge and feel for the game in its base state, I have been here when you first started doing Elite, I have very good insight into DoW modding as I was one of the core members of the gameplay and balance design for DOWPro, which was a major DoW1 mod, and I have watched in excess of 100 replays or VODs of dow2elite in the last 10 days or so since I have been back, not including my own replays where I got steam roled to learn new stuff.

What you have done here is amazing both polish and infrastructure wise, but you have fallen flat on your face when it comes to certain design decisions that have **removed asymmetric game play and strategies** calling it toxic game play. It is almost always the same game plan over and over and over again. Also, unit niches, advantages and disadvantages have been skewed heavily in favor of things that you actually like and how you like to play it.

Case in point is the Purgation squad. The squad, while in vacuum can be compared to other setup teams, but it is infinitely better. While it has shorter range, it has no firing cone. It does not have to setup and it does AoE damage and suppresion. The biggest advantage is the fact that it is a massive threat to a gen farm. A platform is not.

There are plenty of other things that are stupid design choices. Sniper role change, streamlining up to a certain degree but never fully ending up with certain squads of the same roles not scaling in the same way. And the biggest issue was how streamlining has affected the transition into late game. Vanilla gave certain advantages to certain races early and to others late game. While the early game has been equalized the late game differences have been made more obvious.

So, to cut this here: GK are solidly designed but poorly balanced. They are the same as plazma apo was when TioW shipped game play vise. There needs to be a premium to pay for a race that gets exponentially stronger with blobbing which simply is not there at the moment. And do not get me started on Eldar gameplay in the mod and the clusterfuck that FDragons are!!

[Atlas]

This is my only warning in this thread. I'm seeing some hope in keeping this thread constructive, but I WILL keep the peace in here. Play nice.

[evilmario5]

I agree to certain extents with some of the OM feedback here.

The Nemesis Power Sword has really been indirectly buffed this patch, and I've gone for it basically every game I've played OM as so far. That +1 speed really matter for the Bro-Cap, the buff is great and it's pretty good damage as is.

I don't have enough to talk about the rhino atm. I feel like the HB Rhino might over-perform slightly now with the inbuilt vehicle armor and fairly cheap cost. As Crew pointed out, it's basically a better Razorback with some HP lost vs a Plated Razorback in exchange for cheaper and more DPS. Perhaps a small power cost increase to the HB?

I actually find it kind of odd that the IST sarg is only 65/25. Like some unwritten rule that all detector leaders should be 75/25 Anyway, as salty said the acolyte does more for you overall than the sargeant. I would not be against a shorter windup on the grenades in exchange for that req cost increase.

As a general note, the Canticle needs to have more of an impact than it does right now. It's effects feel very very minor and, as the Table Talk pointed out, most of the synergies it has occurs in T2. I'm no expert, but I would recommend just nerfing the actual HP stats on the Blessed Aegis, moving it back into T1, and then buffing the Mantle of Terra and moving that into T2. This way, the Aegis helps in T1 where he really needs it and the Canticle is there when the T2 units actually hit the field.

As a final note to Bro Cap Wargear, I feel that the Holy Armor of Titan needs some buffs. I haven't messed around with it too much, but my gut tells me it could do with an extended duration on the Immortal ability.

-total agree with you with regards to buffing Canticle and nerfing hp stat of Blessed Aegis and switching them back.

-holy armour of titan if its to be buffed best only it to be 1 or 2 secs longer to his duration of his immortal ability and no longer

-nemesis vortex is under used and purified blades needs some love, my idea is combine them (since nemesis vortex has always felt more of a accessory them armour)
for example:
150Rep 30Power
Grants a passive ability. The Brother-Captain's melee attacks deal 5 melee splash damage per strike. Also grants a 20% chance of passively knocking back enemies that attack the Brother-Captain in melee.
Unlocks the Nemesis Vortex ability, which summons a controllable vortex of psychic energy. and energy by 20. 60 second cooldown.

trading its hp as a armour to be more use as utility as a accessory for bro cap.

-nemesis daemon hammer just my idea for it so to give OM bit more AV
melee_pvp changed to Heavy_melee and damaged lowered.

[Forestradio]

So in a another way to answer ; GK Termies has retreat because GK late game is already depends on Terminators and some options makes it much easyer to play. We don't have to make this game more diffucult to play and we shouldn't do it. A retreat with 5 min cool down can not be the end of the world. Can't say the same for Paladins however.

This is all very interesting information that doesn't contradict anything that I said. Why?

Because Grey Knight T3 was already perfectly self sufficient without retreat on their terminators in 2.3 (and they didn't have teleporting anti all interceptors back then either), and the changes that I propose make their terminators actually more potent at sustain fighting but also encourage careful play and support (wath, sanctuary, holocaust) to safeguard their escape.

[Atlas]

Also grants a 20% chance of passively knocking back enemies that attack the Brother-Captain in melee.

I need some clarity on this description for Purified Blades. The way I read it, it's 20% for every enemy attack vs the BC. Which means that it should proc fairly often? Am I missing something here?

[Wise Windu]

Also grants a 20% chance of passively knocking back enemies that attack the Brother-Captain in melee.

I need some clarity on this description for Purified Blades. The way I read it, it's 15% for every enemy attack vs the BC. Which means that it should proc fairly often? Am I missing something here?

Every time an enemy attacks the BC in melee, there is a 20% chance that model will be knocked back.

[Atlas]

Yeah ok, if that's the case I almost never see it proc :/ Maybe I just don't notice it? I'll see if I can't lab it.

EDIT: After testing it does in fact work. The knockback is just very weak in terms of impact so it looks like the models didn't move

[Tex]

I agree to certain extents with some of the OM feedback here.

The Nemesis Power Sword has really been indirectly buffed this patch, and I've gone for it basically every game I've played OM as so far. That +1 speed really matter for the Bro-Cap, the buff is great and it's pretty good damage as is.

I don't have enough to talk about the rhino atm. I feel like the HB Rhino might over-perform slightly now with the inbuilt vehicle armor and fairly cheap cost. As Crew pointed out, it's basically a better Razorback with some HP lost vs a Plated Razorback in exchange for cheaper and more DPS. Perhaps a small power cost increase to the HB?

I actually find it kind of odd that the IST sarg is only 65/25. Like some unwritten rule that all detector leaders should be 75/25 Anyway, as salty said the acolyte does more for you overall than the sargeant. I would not be against a shorter windup on the grenades in exchange for that req cost increase.

As a general note, the Canticle needs to have more of an impact than it does right now. It's effects feel very very minor and, as the Table Talk pointed out, most of the synergies it has occurs in T2. I'm no expert, but I would recommend just nerfing the actual HP stats on the Blessed Aegis, moving it back into T1, and then buffing the Mantle of Terra and moving that into T2. This way, the Aegis helps in T1 where he really needs it and the Canticle is there when the T2 units actually hit the field.

As a final note to Bro Cap Wargear, I feel that the Holy Armor of Titan needs some buffs. I haven't messed around with it too much, but my gut tells me it could do with an extended duration on the Immortal ability.

-total agree with you with regards to buffing Canticle and nerfing hp stat of Blessed Aegis and switching them back.

-holy armour of titan if its to be buffed best only it to be 1 or 2 secs longer to his duration of his immortal ability and no longer

-nemesis vortex is under used and purified blades needs some love, my idea is combine them (since nemesis vortex has always felt more of a accessory them armour)
for example:
150Rep 30Power
Grants a passive ability. The Brother-Captain's melee attacks deal 5 melee splash damage per strike. Also grants a 20% chance of passively knocking back enemies that attack the Brother-Captain in melee.
Unlocks the Nemesis Vortex ability, which summons a controllable vortex of psychic energy. and energy by 20. 60 second cooldown.

trading its hp as a armour to be more use as utility as a accessory for bro cap.

-nemesis daemon hammer just my idea for it so to give OM bit more AV
melee_pvp changed to Heavy_melee and damaged lowered.

I like your idea for combining purified blades with the nemesis vortex. The upgrade would of course have to be moved to T2, and the problem there in is that it leaves the BC with absolutely no way to fight melee on his own in T1 other than to rely on being KB immune and landing specials.

I think we are heading in the right direction though.

Also, psychic lash still sucks. For 35 power its just... and the range on it... anyway. Maybe I need to use it more. Who knows.

[HARRYY]

atm. after playing like 2 weeks:

- I find havoc autocannon a bit over the top
- banshee leap is .... super deadly at times. it makes the outcome against them a bit unpredictable. had banshee teleport as well dont know if its "unbalanced"
-chaos & ork tech is still super-fast.
-wartrukk impacts T2 too hard. esp. since Ork still easily tech T2 pretty fast.
-raptors considering general Chaos T1 unit roster. OK, theyre an investment. theyre eliminating chaos weakpoint early game.
-rippers too early a freaking joke

cheers

(1v1 perspective, still lack of knowledge about the overall balance of the mod)

[Asmon]

When you say shees' leap is deadly at times, you mean... for themselves?

The teleport you mention is a classic leap feature. When I want to I can cross half a screen at lightspeed with WL or Autarch thanks to this.

[HARRYY]

hey asmon. I meant that the banshee become even more deadly (gibbing squads) due to this. In the more rare cases it can become their doom ofc

[HARRYY]

added ripppers. its jsut stupid

[PhatE]

added ripppers. its jsut stupid

Fix the numerous typos before someone calls you something unpleasant

[BloatedChamp]

I like your idea for combining purified blades with the nemesis vortex. The upgrade would of course have to be moved to T2, and the problem there in is that it leaves the BC with absolutely no way to fight melee on his own in T1 other than to rely on being KB immune and landing specials.

BC can do without needing a melee counter in T1. He fits the role of Support with WATH and is an excellent meat-shield. His tie up potential is also a big plus in T1.

Real melee threats exist in t2 anywho.

[Atlas]

BC can do without needing a melee counter in T1. He fits the role of Support with WATH and is an excellent meat-shield. His tie up potential is also a big plus in T1.

Real melee threats exist in t2 anywho.

I disagree. He is almost defenseless against any melee squad with even moderate chase potential such as horms and sluggas. He's also extremely slow for a Support now, so he's occupying this awful middle ground in T1 atm. I find his "support" build to be really weak anyway since his only real support is WATH and Canticle, which has already been talked about.

I'm not saying the BC can't still wreck sh*t in T2, but his T1 game is very lackluster atm imo. Nemesis Power Sword has become almost mandatory and when Purified Blades is what you're depending on to save you in melee fights, then well... you know

Either make him a beast or make him a support imo. It's this odd mix of both atm.

[Cyris]

I disagree. He is almost defenseless against any melee squad with even moderate chase potential such as horms and sluggas.

This. Like the HT, his big health and immunity to suppression make him seem immortal, but a T1 melee squad on him will ruin his day if he doesn't special. Unlike the HT (and other hig, tanky commanders) he also lacks a T1 wargear that allows him to overcome this. Is this bad? Not necesarily, it's just one of his weaknesses, and it's ok to have weaknesses. But let's not pretend the weakness doesn't exist.

I have mixed feelings on the BC in general and intend on playing him a bunch more to test things out. My impression so far is that he's successfully has his "one-man-army" ability removed, but has not been given enough of a support focus to make him shine as a "tanky-support" or even pure support. by contrast, there are other "one-man-army" capable commanders who can also build into really supportive builds if desired. In short - he's balanced but bland, which is a good starting point!

Random thoughts:
Give him wargear combinations that actually let him spend all his energy.
Reduce the prices, tier or damage of some T2 weapons to make more of them ability focused for their costs.
Make purified blades into ANYTHING else.
Ensure there are at least 4 wargear options in T1 (currently, there are 2 - sword and purge)
Rework Canticle as a T2 armor, or make some changes to it's stats.
I'd love for him to be able to more meaningfully choose between a weak one man army and a focused support with a lot of health, depending on wargear.

[Psycho]

Has Caeltos said anything about the guardsmen's deployable cover throughout this mod's history? I got here in 2.4.2 so I'm unaware if he tried fiddling with it with no results. Strange to see no patches (that I'm aware of) dealing with them even though they're barely seen ingame.

[terpterp]

I actually think the guardsman deployable cover is in a fine spot. It isn't used all that often, but I think it could very easily be an annoying and overpowered ability if buffed a little. I use it quite often, mainly to extend already existing cover by a block or two quickly before a fight since guardsmen squads rarely fit all the models behind it. Or in the late-late game, throw up some cover by a med bunker or something, since most of the natural cover is gone by then.

That being said, I think the build speed could be lowered a little tiny bit. And it would be pretty cool if the cover had some special properties to augment IG weaknesses, like give the units in the cover a significant amount of flame or explosive resist. Anything to make a little more unique than just heavy cover.

[Psycho]

I actually did analyze it a bit with what free time I had and found several setbacks that could balance it out, along with giving units more importance as cover crushers. Build time decreased and hitpoints increased would be all that I'd suggest at all. Jump troops, terminators, and vehicles would smash them in an instant as they already do, but they'd just not die in an instant to damage like a single hit from a looted tank or other units that can damage buildings and with AoE damage. If anything that would make you choose between abandoning the cover or facing another hit just to keep them in cover a bit more against other units shooting at them, instead of immediately withdrawing them. It also opens up the option for the opponent to 'steal' it and use it against you if you withdraw.

As you said most cover is gone by late game due to crushing properties, not actual full damage, and most of it is accidental since I've never seen someone actively targeting cover to destroy it rather than the units behind it. The crushing properties, in my idea, would remain the same. If anything, the opponent will be actively thinking of the built cover and adapt to it accordingly, like space marines doing what resembles a siege with plasma devastators. Walkers charged in at the vanguard would also serve an additional purpose, and would give more incentive to keep them around instead. Not to mention the more fortifications built, the more it becomes a nuke magnet.

And the build speed is insanely more than what it's stated due to squad AI. Guardsmen usually swarm around the cover being built and step on the next one, and it takes the AI a second or two to recognize that the buildsite is obstructed and move the guardsmen to start building it. Repeat the process like 10 times and it starts becoming annoying. Now compare it to the function the dire avengers' shield serves. If anything, compared to that, the idea I had was to differentiate it from it as a 'protects less but doesn't die as fast' version that trades energy for time in how it's built. The idea would be to increase build time just to the point it finishes building before a guardsman gets the opportunity to step on the next cover's build site.

I might be thinking it too much but it's just annoying and depressing to always see the ability on my guardsmen and knowing it's useless most of the time for what effort and time it takes and what it returns.

EDIT: Just for math. A looted tank does 160 explosive damage (full damage to buildings) per shot, with a long/distant AoE damage of 0.35. At that distance, it does 56 explosive damage. The predator with a damage of 120 and modifier of 0.25 does 30. A plasma cannon devastator with 210 damage (plasma cannon damage to buildings is 1.35) at 0.3 distant modifier does 85,05. Ol' reliable does exactly 30 (40+40+40 with 0.25 modifier) total damage where it lands. Just direct hits of three grenades (not volleys) of grenade launcher heretics do 30 total (same math as catachans). Only two IG HWT autocannon shots at distant (0.25) modifier already do 30 explosive damage. IG's deployable cover is 30 building hp. For perspective, a single ripper swarm model has 45hp, and it'd survive a wee bit more against explosive damage assuming 100% accuracy.

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

You want IG cover to be easily destroyed. You can use it to fence off retreat paths and even trap said retreat units.

[HARRYY]

After playing some more Felt like doing a list on things


Ordo Malleus
Nothing, since I dont really have a clue

Imperial Guard
INQ
HolyPyre from 30 to 25 seconds
Execrurators power up from 20 to 30 power
Commisar
stubbornness: maximum heal decreased slightly from 10,5% to 9,5%. And the 15/32/52/75% damage buff when units around should be decreased slightly as well, maybe to 12/22/32/45%

Space Marines
whirlwind rocket impact-radius must be decreased. First u have vehicle-pathing issues, with this your infantry becomes a hurt too. its not fun at all, it ruins the game... and ofc balance.

Orks
wartukk power up, maybe from 30 to 50. his impact is huge. Ork tech-speed is still idiotic and accordingly they must be slowed down a bit
Nobz should never benefit/profit from abilties that grant supression immunity. A conditioned monkey can play Orks. seriously.
stikkbombaz power cost 20 to 30
tankbusters power cost 0 to 15. Uncommon way to punish ork-tech, but I guess it must happen. Its only a slight nerf here, but consider this as tech-tax

Eldar
Falcon cost increased or his AV damage decreased strictly. Or adding upgrade to the falcon for getting his lost damage back. something like this

Chaos
Havoc autocannon damage or range must be decreased
raptors T1 needed? really? it elimiates the once unique playstyle to chaos. What if raptors are T2 and generally stronger? Since Chaos is also a pretty fast teching race it would bring up another approach to them. They just need to be distinguished better from bloodletters then. bloodletter maybe cheaper&more squishy, while raptors are more bulky. both are "jump troops".

Tyranids
ravener tunnels have their own meta, and since ELITE is somewhat streamlined overall, tunnels and their impact should be reconsidered.
IMO tunnels should have even FAR LESS HP.. literally get destroyed as you click your units to attack them. This would limit their USE and certain ridiculous/offensive tactics. Further: limited to 3, always destroying the oldest tunnel when digging a new one.
lictor hero, also adds hisssss unique impact, Id say -100 hp to soften him a bit T1. then he can gain some HP back to him via his T2+ wargears. He should be more in a role of glascannon-ninja that must be played well. thats still not the case.

[Tex]

I think you need to play a few more games yet Harry. By the way, its great to have you back!

I'll address some of the stuff you posted.

Holy pyre: I agree
Excrutiators: 100% agree
Stubbornness: 100% disagree. Commisar is IMO the 3rd hardest hero in the game to play. This is his mainstay T2 accessory that allows him to actually get his hands dirty.

Note: you didn't address LG turrets having basically no cooldown. These things can be absolutely game breaking.

Whirlwind rocket impact: all this thing does is disrupt... It needs to do a damned good job of it. I disagree.

Wartrukk: 50 power for a low dps 350 hp vehicle? It's a huge force multiplier for orks, but I think you are looking in the wrong direction in terms of what needs to be nerfed.
Nobz: In this meta nobs are actually relatively meh. There are countless sources of knockback, plasma, stun, suppression (over-lapping) and power_melee. Burning 75 red to break suppression, just to have the setup team pack up and leave for home unscathed is a pretty fair trade off IMO.
stikkbommas: A melee artillery squad in a ranged meta that loses damage output with members lost that costs red to use... disagree.
tankbustas: I kind of agree here. I mean I wouldn't want to punish the AV of a race that has only a hero specific snare, but bustas are pretty good.

Note: I think where we need to see some toning down for orks T2 is a slight decrease in the hp and the damage of the slugga nob, as well as a slight decrease in the damage done by the weirdboy normal attack.

Falcon: Disagree. The falcon is finally a threat. This thing is very easy to kill in T2

Havocs: Agree. These things are super good. A decrease in efficiency is needed if Plague Marines are not getting any nerfs
Raptors: These guys aren't overly crazy in T1. I don't see a problem with them being around at all, especially now that heretics lost melee efficiency. Where raptors get a little crazy is when they get their overly efficient sergeant. I think he should cost 100-25.

Note: You didn't even mention Plague Marines. This is part of the reason why I think you need to get a few more games in.

Tunnels: Disagree. RA IMO is the 4th hardest hero to play (at least at full capacity). He has a huge micro skill ceiling and you should be rewarded for building a shit ton of tunnels and positioning them well. The tunnels are very easy to remove already, and they can be crushed. I would think webway gates are far more worthy of complaint.
Lictor: 50/50. I want the lictor to get even more work, but he just had his HP lowered with this patch and he does feel a hell of a lot squishier. I think what really needs to be looked is the fact that he has no urgency for energy management, meaning that he will almost always have energy to be cloaked and flesh hook, and this makes his adrenal glands armor completely useless.

[ChokoBambus]

Eldar:
- banshee exarch dying too often and/or banshees scaling poorly into the late game (could use a tier 2.5 or 3 expensive upgrade to trainsition them into the late game)
- Autarch shield ability conflicting heavily with other high energy cost abilities
- detection, even though the guardian warlocks get a limited vision, I feel as if rangers into the late game are kind of a bad idea. Is there another detector other then rangers and warlocks?
- Wraithbone upgrade being both boring and kind of bleh

SM:
- none that I know of

Chaos:
- Raptor champions being too cheap for what they do
- auto cannons

IG:
- inquisitor pistol mark staying way to long on squads.

GKs:
- purgation squad being a bit on the cheap side but... sigh

Orks:
- Slugga + trukk + XXX force multiplier in tier 2. Either the nob or the truck, but don't cut both

Nids:
- Thornback upgrade