Patch 2.5.1

[ChokoBambus]

Perhaps solving the Ork issue would be by simply upping energy costs a tad instead of nerfing?
- increase burna cost by 5 power
- increase slugga Nob cost to 100/30, He is damn well worth it
- increase truck and Kan power cost by 5-10

[HARRYY]

yes, agree crewfinity.
mcboy/knob are stronger when mastered, but I just picked the warboss for starters and I was surprised. and OFC I have more trouble dealing with proper skilled mcboy or knob players.

whatever, bit offtopic. sorry.

[Caeltos]

Why reduce the LA's sight range? He's supposed to be the lone hunter

It's just normalized now for all Tyranid Heroes to have 38(5) range.

But why was this needed? The farseer has more sight range than the other 2 Eldar heroes, should here sight range go down? LG/INQ have 50 sight range. while most heroes have 40 sight range, including the LC. Felt appropriate for the LA to have more sight range is what I'm saying.

The crux in this dilemma is that the Farseer can't really do alot even with superior vision range. Warlock / Warp Spiders have more long-range oriented warfare/abilities, so it's compensated with slightly lower vision range. One would argue that Psychic Storm is one of the few abilities at her disposal which she can utilize this ability, but it's not a baseline feature.

Lictor Alpha on the other hand, has a baseline range ability. Sure, it's not as much as his vision range, but it'll require more frontline positioning to utilize it now.

[Dark Riku]

Just knowing where the enemy is and what's exactly is there that much sooner is a very big deal imo. Even if you can't "use" it for combat sake.
With that reasoning, the LG and INQ should go down to the standard 40 sight range as well. Do with that opinion as you wish

[Cyris]

Piggy-backing off Riku here...

There is actually quite a bit of vision "normalization" that could stand to happen. Increased vision range is a really useful trait that I took significant advantage of when playing FS. Picking uneven fights is Eldars bread and butter, and Guide + vision (and Farsight global) were mainstays of my play. Most units have a base of 40, though looking through the codex it seems nids have 38 because reasons? Specific units have vision higher or lower then that, and I for one would be super in favor of a global normalizing pass on this.

That said, in no way do I think LA needed increased vision, so I'm glad to see it go despite the confusing justification. He's got plenty going for him, and comeing out of the gate with stealth gives him a strong amount of reconnaissance ability. I think it's totally fine for him to lose it, though again, it's a confusing argument to say it is to normalize them nid commanders.


Data time!

Nid:
55 - Neurothrope, Venom Brood, Warrior Brood, Zoan
44 - LA and T3 Lictor
38 - Everything else. I say make them all 40, this seems silly.
35 - ripper, spore mine (just make them 40 or 30)

Eldar:
60 - Ranger (detects at 40)
50 - FS, DR Exarch
45 - Falcon (wtf? make it 40 imo)
40 - Everything else.
30 - WG (though Warlock leader is 40)

SM:
55 - Scout
40 - Everything Else

OM:
50 IST (I don't think they deserve / need this. My gut is this is a copy-paste side effect from IG ST) Ops (by contrast, this is the unit that should be your spotter imo)
45 - VA (my gut is this could goto 40 safely)
40 - Everything Else.

IG:
50 - Inq, LG, Kasrkin, Storms (even more parity with Kasrkin), Manticore (really?)
45 - Spotter
40 - Everything Else.

Chaos:
50 - Heretics (?!?!? AC is range 40 oddly)
40 - Everything Else
38 - GUO (I'd put MONEY down that this guy was copy/pasted from a carnifex by Relic.)

Ork:
55 - Stikks
44 - Komandos
40 - everything else.

[Cyris]

To followup myself, here's a quick Vision Normalization and Rebalancing pass. Because I like numbers in multiples of 5, dammit. And random outliers (vision range 44 Stikks? Really?) drive me bonkers.

Nid:
Neurothrope and Zoan range reduced to 40. (These potent artillery pieces should rely on the rest of the nid army to gain vision for their shots, or ground target.)
Rippers and Spore Mines reduced visison to 30. (Left alone, these units should have a tricky time finding targets.)
All other units are set to range 40.

Eldar:
Falcon vision reduced to 40 from 45. (Note that it's 3 weapons have a range of 38/44/45. Falcon is a weird bird, but I don't think it should be a scout)

SM:
No changes, looks good! (Maaaaybe reduce Scout vision range and give it back with advance training, sarge or sniper rifle upgrade? I dunno...)

OM:
IST vision reduced from 50 to 40.
VA vision reduced from 45 to 40.

IG:
Inq vision reduced from 50 to 40. Servo Skull now increases vision range by +25. (I think LG is prolly fine with it as a trait? Could see it go away but the Vox Operator give +10 sight or something)
Either Kasrkin or Storms lost 10 vision range. (Just to give them more differentiated roles. Perhaps increase ST vision if they get the AK upgrade to go with their weapon range. Unlike Zoans/WG, I feel AKST should be a functioning independent unit that don't need no man)
Manticore vision range reduced from 50 to 40.
Spotter vision range increased from 45 to 50. (Cause it's a Spotter, get it? Like, it spots stuff... Tough crowd.)

Chaos:
Heretics vision reduced from 50 to 40. AC vision range increased from 40 to 50. (This might be unnecessary, I dunno. It seems weird for tics to have this vision boost? I dunno. Chaos mod. ::mutters about melee tics::)
GUO vision increased from 38 to 40.

Ork:
Komandos vision range increased from 44 to 45

[Lesten]

Falcon vision reduced to 40 from 45. (Note that it's 3 weapons have a range of 38/44/45. Falcon is a weird bird, but I don't think it should be a scout

IIRC Falcon sight range was increased from 40 to 45 a few patches ago, probably because it was supposed to be more "scouty". I think it's a pretty neat little perk for it and some other Eldar units to have good sight range, it suits their design to have good awareness and see/"know" things just before the enemy (albeit just a second). It probably also helps them pick their fights a little better, which is super crucial for them.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Good stuff across the board, the purg change should stop that lone model standing in front and getting shot to pieces

SOMETHING QUITE BIG BUT I DUNNO IF I WANT TO SHARE. MAYBE ILL POSTPONE FOR ANOTHER TIME. I NEED TO ASSEMBLE THE INNER CIRCLE FOR FEEDBACK

Inner Circle...ASSEMBLE!

[Tex]

Caeltos... you are awesome. I feel like you took some very good suggestions from the community, spun them through your think tank, and spat them out into a great patch.

Thank you so much for being a good listener.

I'm super stoked to try out the new karskins. I know I've been bugging you a long time for changes that look very familiar and I think you have given IG a much more complex reason to go T3 other than RUSS RUSS RUSS.

[Asmon]

Shouldn't you be far far away going on with your life instead of playing elite? =)

[Toilailee]

Good stuff across the board, the purg change should stop that lone model standing in front and getting shot to pieces

SOMETHING QUITE BIG BUT I DUNNO IF I WANT TO SHARE. MAYBE ILL POSTPONE FOR ANOTHER TIME. I NEED TO ASSEMBLE THE INNER CIRCLE FOR FEEDBACK

Inner Circle...ASSEMBLE!

The community knows, the community is watching.

Shouldn't you be far far away going on with your life instead of playing elite? =)

As if anyone took that declaration seriously.

[HARRYY]

thanks for the numbers Cyris, guess some should be reconsidered (esp. expected left-overs or unreasoned ones)

[Cyris]

Hive Tyrant Venom Cannon moving accuracy decreased from 1 to 0.5

I was thinking about this today. The interactions between "miss" rolls, scatter distances and AOE's are hard to understand, so I might be off in this, but... Won't this leave the AI capabilities of the weapon basically the same, and only nerf it's AV? The VC currently "misses" 95% of the time when fighting against infantry, but it's AOE means that when it randomly scatters, sometimes it can deal significant damage to infantry. Reducing the hit rate by half while moving might put this miss rate to 97.5%, but missing is often made into a hit by the AOE.

Was nerfing it's AV capabilities while leaving it's streaky AI in palace the goal here? Or maybe I'm not understanding the functional changes this will cause. There's my thoughts in any case!

[HARRYY]

guys, one question .... is SM totally fucking up IG ??!??!!?

I have had some 1v1 and I really struggle against advanced targetting, my IG die like shit. even sent cant come close, my catas get kited over time (losing HP)..... I get enormously controlled by SM T1, then when I can do some stuff (around T2) hes T3 and its GG.

[Cyris]

guys, one question .... is SM totally fucking up IG ??!??!!?
I have had some 1v1 and I really struggle against advanced targetting, my IG die like shit. even sent can come close..... I get enormously controlled by SM T1, then when I can do some stuff (around T2) hes T3 and its GG.

Advanced Targeters is CRIMINALLY under used by most players. For 75 req it makes certain matchups swing heavily in SM's favor, vs IG being a specific case of this. I think the only reason we don't hear more about it, is that not enough players have realized it yet, or decided that targeters cuts down on too much of your T2 AV potential (I disagree). My feeling is that the previous round of buffs on the targeters went too far (though this was many patches ago). I'm currently playing SM, and absolutely intend on showing people their power once I'm done with Apo ASM focused builds.

As for the IG matchup in particular. As you have correctly noticed, it pretty much shuts down sentinels (1 volley will be like 1/2 sent hp, depending on range of course). I have also faced off against the build you are talking baout (Targeters into T3) and it's horrifying. I got close to figuring it out by the end of my IG stint, but was never able to beat it. I had to go such heavy T1 to finally push up, but behind this the SM player spread nodes around the map and fast teched me out of the game. As Inq, Silently was super important to tie up the dev, but I was unable to figure out what to do after my enemy got some detection and focused down the relativly squishy inq who has no melee to rush in with her Spotters helped too of course, but the thorough shutting down of sent plays cut down on my map presence too much to get enough use out of them. A 2nd dev would often be my death (1 tac, 1 scout, 2 dev, 1 with targeters).

In short, I feel you pain, and I would love to know if you figure out how to beat this matchup! And if you want, I'd gladly run SM against you using the build. It's always a good way to learn.

[HARRYY]

thanks Cyris, im at least not feeling like crybaby now.... I was so pissed about those..... 2x dev+ targetters ruined me a lot. Hopefully Caeltos is watching into it....


omg. played a series now... targetters are imba in T1 against IG... its like no chance at all. really..

[Aetherion]

Nid:
Neurothrope and Zoan range reduced to 40. (These potent artillery pieces should rely on the rest of the nid army to gain vision for their shots, or ground target.)
Rippers and Spore Mines reduced visison to 30. (Left alone, these units should have a tricky time finding targets.)
All other units are set to range 40.

Sounds good, though the sight nerf on the LA with force him to cloak earlier, with the flesh hook cost increase will reduce much of his post-first ambush potential.

For many of the starting/cheap units that seem to have a higher vision than normal, I think its necessary otherwise the first notice they get of an enemy is when they are being shot at and will drop models easily. Is that why IST, tics have that range so they have a chance to back up?

[Dark Riku]

guys, one question .... is SM totally fucking up IG ??!??!!?

No
Try to master spotter use. Depending on your hero you can flank and/or execute catachans, use their kb/smoke.
Their smoke only reduces incoming damage and not outgoing.

[HARRYY]

guys, one question .... is SM totally fucking up IG ??!??!!?

No
Try to master spotter use. Depending on your hero you can flank and/or execute catachans, use their kb/smoke.
Their smoke only reduces incoming damage and not outgoing.

I played Victario (currently rank 9 in the ladder) in a series of like 5 games. OK, he must be very good. he went infi-scout, Tac, 2x dev with targetters. sometimes even 3 dev when he saw I go heavier in T1. I come T2 first, because of tech and got like 150 VP left. I can recapture map with chimera support, nonetheless I lose when he comes T2 as well (lascannon on one of the devs if he had 3 / or otherstuff like cybot =gg).

I admit I didnt try spotters, but he also had those scouts stressing, decapping, tying-up melee (when I used HWT). Guess he would do the same vs. spotters with his scouts. Then u say go catas ?!

[Crewfinity]

I played Victario (currently rank 14 in the ladder) in a series of like 5 games. OK, he must be very good. he went infi-scout, Tac, 2x dev with targetters. sometimes even 3 dev when he saw I go heavier in T1. I come T2 first, because of tech and got like 150 VP left. I can recapture map with chimera support, nonetheless I lose when he comes T2 as well.

I admit I didnt try spotters, but he also had those scouts stressing, decapping, tying-up melee (when I used HWT). Guess he would do the same vs. spotters with his scouts. Then u say go catas ?!

Yeah you just need spotters. They shut down setup teams really well. If he gets more setup teams just get more spotters. Since they use abilities to disrupt devastators they don't give a fuck if scouts try to tie them up. Just use the mortar slightly behind the devs so they get knocked towards your army, and focus fire them while your hero/sent rushes in to tie them up/stomp. If they try to resetup just use the smoke shell and continue focus firing. Seriously they're basically the IG hard counter to setup teams.

[Dark Riku]

Then u say go catas ?!

Yes.

[ChokoBambus]

I have this feeling that some of the more extreme tier 3 stuff is a bit to easy to get or is too good now that tier 1 and 2 have been normalized. I feel as if that Nobs, Seers and other purchasable units were always tier 3 and terminators were tier 4 due to how bad SM tier 1 used to be.

I feel as if that the terminator current price is a tad too low at least power wise, and I know people will cite the Red cost, but the instant effect is there once they are dropped. And in any semi equal game dropping down terminators is a GG. Again, I am not complaining about performance but perhaps the cost could be adjusted.

[Dark Riku]

In a semi equal game, dropping terms is far from an ending the game action ...
100 power not enough of a price already? °_O Not to mention the 350red cost, meaning little to no use of red during the game.
You are complaining about performance if you think they cost to little. Complaining about terminator performance, that would be a first

[MaxPower]

Its 350 red Riku, but I agree with the rest you said.

[Dark Riku]

Its 350 red Riku, but I agree with the rest you said.

Brainfart edited, thanks.
Been building 40K list, terminators are 175Points and I am taking knights when allowed (375P base mostly) so the 75 must have still been stuck in my mind.

[CSM Emperor]

Patch 2.5.1

Chaos

Plague Marines are currently overperforming; the aim is to reduce their effectiveness against infantry and ease dealing with them.

• Plague Marine damage over time decreased
• Plague Marines build time increased from 27 to 32 s

Havoc Autocannon is currently doing a wee bit too much damage against everything. It might not be enough, but we'll see how this pans out.

• Chaos Havoc Autocannon damage decreased from 60 to 55

With the new reinforcement cost and pricing of Heretics, a new cost increase for "strong" squad leaders for Chaos Space Marines is in order.

• Chaos Raptor Aspiring Champion cost increased from 80/25 to 100/25

Everybody knows you are nerfing CSM on purpose. Plague Marines need to be tougher as they are bad av. Autocannon havoks are very easily countered.

[Crewfinity]

Everybody knows you are nerfing CSM on purpose. Plague Marines need to be tougher as they are bad av. Autocannon havoks are very easily countered.

yes and no and no

PM's are crazy tough, incredibly useful in all situations as they have good AI with their bolters, good AV with a snaring rocket, and good at tanking a lot of melee hits and slowing down enemy units, as well as synergizing really well with worship. they've needed a nerf for a while.

Autocannon havocs just shit all over everthing for way too little risk/cost. also have been overperforming for a while and are getting a well deserved nerf.

[Atlas]

What Crew said, and in fact I'd say that PM need to be nerfed even further. Particularly in their health regen cuz that's just wack :/

As for the burna upgrade talk, I'd be ok with 5 more power on it, but only if it gets a pretty neat req decrease. I dunno what to do about the nob though, but he is really really good atm.

[Deflaktor]

• Dark Reapers cost increased from 400/30 to 440/40
• Dark Reapers weapon range increased from 44 to 48
• Aspect of Reaper no longer grants Pinning Fire
• Aspect of Reaper moved from T2 to T3
• Aspect of Reaper now grants +0.5 speed and 15% damage to the squad

Not a single ability for Dark Reapers anymore? That's kinda sad. so they will be the first eldar unit without a single ability (apart from shuriken). I like the speed buff though, they needed it badly. Their higher weapon range should now also be more noticeable.

The 15% damage increase wont change much because that was almost exactly the damage increase they got from Pinning Fire (Dark Reapers deal 15.22 DPS without Pinning Fire and 17.50 DPS with Pinning Fire). On the other hand they will have a crazy good burst damage I guess.

So what I see:
- Higher cost
+ Higher range
- Lower damage in T2 but same damage as before in T3 (because of lack of Pinning Fire)
+ Higher speed in T3
+ Higher burst damage in T3
- Lose suppression

Feels like a nerf to me. But maybe it is gonna be easier to capitalize on the higher weapon range now.

[Caeltos]

My bad, should have clarified that Pinning Fire is scheduled to be a baseline ability.