T3 upgrade too cheap? d:)

HARRYY · Postby **HARRYY** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 6:42 pm

I just realized everything scales decent and all races have easy AV-acces / AV-synergies (TBH unit choices compared to vanilla are less complex) --- often the key to win is going T3 and drop your cheese.

Once a time in vanilla the T3 upgrade was a bit more expensive (350/180?) and sometimes contained a risky maneuver doing so. Actually I liked this very much, but it was also fine when they changed it. but the META was different from what ELITE is right now. ATM theres only a little risk going T3, if the opponent pushes with his T2 you strike back even harder with T3 afterwards.

Gentleman, Im not claiming theres a need for it! but I would be pleased if you just think about it adn how the game would change:D
even teamgames get more excitement with this "u go T3 fast ASAP, we play strong T1"

it would serve a bit more extended games (hopefully), more strategical depth (due to decisions)and I guess its giving some excitement back whilst you feel fully satisfied achieving your T3-status.

I hope for an entertaining discussion!

Sturnn · Postby **Sturnn** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 7:19 pm

are you not over reacting mate? i mean there is full of you in many topics. OP here OP there etc.

HARRYY · Postby **HARRYY** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 7:26 pm

im not in rage mode currently :>

Sturnn · Postby **Sturnn** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 7:28 pm

No one said that. its my simple observation.

Cyris · Postby **Cyris** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 7:38 pm

Personally, I find T3 mostly fine. T3 is not the "I win now" tier as much as I seem to recall it was back in the day/retail. In ELITE, I have completely thrown games by going T3 instead of spamming T2 units, and I've won matches where I stay T2 and my opponent goes T3. There is absolutely strong stuff in there, but there are a lot more T2 tools that can "fight up a tier" successfully. Some factions can get away with skipping more of T2, but in most matchups I feel that if I had microed better, pushed harder, taken advantage of timings better, I could have punished the fast techer. Unless it was OP orks (kidding, mostly).

Ace of Swords · Postby **Ace of Swords** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 7:40 pm

T1 and T2 are way longer in elite than they are in retail, and for the whole of retri it has been the same price it is in ELITE, not sure about what ancient version of vanilla you are talking about.

HARRYY · Postby **HARRYY** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 7:48 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:T1 and T2 are way longer in elite than they are in retail, and for the whole of retri it has been the same price it is in ELITE, not sure about what ancient version of vanilla you are talking about.

hmm yeah , overall gaames last longer. an apect i like very much.

Postby **Caeltos** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 7:52 pm

T2 was 45
T3 was like 75 power or something in vanilla (pre TIOW)

T2 has always been the most expensive stretching at 125 & T3 has been 150 at most.

Never has T3 cost 180 power. The game teching pace was extremely much faster up until TiOW where they wanted to stray away from fast-teching. Most specifically because Space Marines had fast-tech Razorback / Sniper spam (which was pretty much unbeatable for eldar) , and T2 for Tyranids involved Carnifexes (Yes, I shit you not).

T2 Orks had Lootas (yes) , Wartrukk, Deff Dredd, not sure on where Stormboyz where to be honest - they were seldom purchased, because Orks relied on hard-generator pushes with Stikkbommaz onto fast T3 onto Looted Tanks.

Eldar long story short- Guardian grenade spam on Generators to delay teching pacings as much as possible, and then proceed to spam Warp Spiders.

TLDR - Vanilla teching T3 never cost 180 power. It was at most 150 post-tiow.

Asmon · Postby **Asmon** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 8:05 pm

T3 is already quite expensive, and going T3 is always risky, unless you've already facerolled your opponent.

At best I could agree to a longer build time, but you'll have first to convince me it's needed.

And as Cael said T3 never was more than 150 power.

egewithin · Postby **egewithin** » Fri 11 Mar, 2016 9:54 pm

Why don't we make a starting cost for T1 too? Why not? IMAGINE IT

Metal C0Mmander · Postby **Metal C0Mmander** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 12:23 am

Caeltos wrote:T2 for Tyranids involved Carnifexes (Yes, I shit you not).

What the fuck would you even be buying in Tyranid T3? Lictors? Oh yeah that'd really be worth teching for...

Postby **Caeltos** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 1:13 am

Metal C0Mmander wrote:
Caeltos wrote:T2 for Tyranids involved Carnifexes (Yes, I shit you not).

What the fuck would you even be buying in Tyranid T3? Lictors? Oh yeah that'd really be worth teching for...

No, Lictors were T2 as well. T3 had a different variant of Carnifex iirc, and Raveners. Tyranids has been all over the place.

Metal C0Mmander · Postby **Metal C0Mmander** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 1:28 am

Raveners in T3? Wow they must have been some real badasses back then...

Postby **Caeltos** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 3:39 am

Metal C0Mmander wrote:Raveners in T3? Wow they must have been some real badasses back then...

Considering they were never ever purchased, I would say no. They weren't that impressive in terms of raw damage output. They did have quite good surviveability, sporting a whoopin 1200 health pool iirc.

Tex · Postby **Tex** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 5:47 am

They actually were amazing Cael. They had anti-all damage and could be spammed to all hell.

ChokoBambus · Postby **ChokoBambus** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 7:58 am

Stikk bombas also 1 shot killed generators.

Postby **Nurland** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 1:07 pm

Metal C0Mmander wrote:
Caeltos wrote:T2 for Tyranids involved Carnifexes (Yes, I shit you not).

What the fuck would you even be buying in Tyranid T3? Lictors? Oh yeah that'd really be worth teching for...

Dunno pre TiOW, did only a couple of AI skirmishes before CR but T3 Lictor spam used to be fucking cancer.

Postby **Caeltos** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 7:44 pm

Tex wrote:They actually were amazing Cael. They had anti-all damage and could be spammed to all hell.

Raveners pre-tiow they had piercing_pvp damage. During beta TiOW they had their weapon type changed from piercing_pvp to plasma and were moved to T1. The beta for TioW was a living hell for Space Marines.

Stikk bombas also 1 shot killed generators.

Yeah, one volley used to kill one generators, and all other grenade types used to 2-shot generators. Setup-teams (close range) used to insta kill generators in like a second. It was gen-killing galore, but at the same time - generators were not quite as impactful as they are now due to the teching pacing being so different.

ChokoBambus · Postby **ChokoBambus** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 9:30 pm

All and all, pre TioW was hardly a game.

Asmon · Postby **Asmon** » Sat 12 Mar, 2016 10:01 pm

Don't say such a thing banshees had leap into combat with knock back even to retreating units!

That's what we need in Elite. Cael! Buff shees plox.

Lichtbringer · Postby **Lichtbringer** » Mon 14 Mar, 2016 2:30 am

Asmon wrote:Don't say such a thing banshees had leap into combat with knock back even to retreating units!

That's what we need in Elite. Cael! Buff shees plox.

Wow. That sounds so stupid

I want it thouh. Suddenly Plaguemarines now seem perfectly balanced.

Carnevour · Postby **Carnevour** » Thu 17 Mar, 2016 9:00 am

I miss my everything murder tcsm, now those were true kaus speeh maruns.

Postby **Nurland** » Thu 17 Mar, 2016 11:00 pm

Don't think TCSM got any nerfs in ELITE though damage type or damage wise.

Metal C0Mmander · Postby **Metal C0Mmander** » Thu 17 Mar, 2016 11:38 pm

Nurland wrote:Don't think TCSM got any nerfs in ELITE though damage type or damage wise.

I could have sworn they did less damage but I don't remember when such an update was implemented. Oh well they are kinda broken in retail anyway.

Carnevour · Postby **Carnevour** » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 2:08 am

Tcsm on release in CR were anti everything.

Tex · Postby **Tex** » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 2:10 am

Inferno no longer does as much damage to vehicle armor. I think that is the only (yet very major) change that TCSM received, even though the change is not specific to them.

Postby **Nurland** » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 8:04 am

Ah you meant those times. Yeah early CR TCSM were lulzy.

I was just thinking ELITE versus Retail. I am fairly certain that TCSM are almost unchanged compared to Retail.

Rataxas · Postby **Rataxas** » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 2:11 pm

Any way T3 is alright as it is , 150 power on 1v1 is act. a bit to spend.

GuruSkippy · Postby **GuruSkippy** » Fri 18 Mar, 2016 3:59 pm

Caeltos wrote:T2 Orks had Lootas (yes) , Wartrukk, Deff Dredd, not sure on where Stormboyz where to be honest - they were seldom purchased, because Orks relied on hard-generator pushes with Stikkbommaz onto fast T3 onto Looted Tanks.

Is it different now for orks ?
I always had the feeling in retail that orks was all about gen harass while pushing to T3 as fast as you can in order to have Nobz or Looted Tank.
No matter when, pre or post Tiow. Long T2 ork was never able to compete with other races T2.

Is it different now in ELITE ?
After 10 games, I'm tempted to say no to be honest. Just curious, not saying it's a bad thing.

Anyway, on topic, increasing T3 cost would be a death sentence to orks imo.