Patch 2.5.1

[Deflaktor]

That changes everything this is gonna be interesting

[ChokoBambus]

So reapers are normalized in cost and upkeep with WSs? makes sense.

[Nurland]

Vanilla heretics are pretty much fine as they are. The AC Tics just lack the oompf for their cost. AC itself is fine and dandy but I find the squad overall seriously lacking in melee. AC could cost more Req for all I care but I would love for him to give +5 damage to doomblast and maybe +10% melee damage (would still be quite a bit weaker than old tics).

The new heretic pricing and performance promotes heavily GL tics unless you absolutely need the suppression against jump troops (ASM etc). Not liking it since GL tics were very potent even with the previous pricing and scaled a lot better.

Grenade launchers could get a cost increase, Raptor AC cost increase is a good move, PM and autocannon (I think autocannon could take 6-7 damage reduction for starters tbh) nerfs are well deserved.

[brutalisto]

Elite mod has always been tailored to the taste and complains of several people and heavily against chaos lately which was struck by ridiculous nerfs over the recent patches while buffing orks and eldar to an insane level. Heretics with nerfed health,base damage and doomblast damage granting more xp to enemies upon death thus veteranizing them!

[Caeltos]

The goal is to bring Chaos down a notch. I'm not sorry, but it had to be done. Tyranids are in the same position as Chaos.

[fankater]

Hey Caeltos i was wondering could you change actual main menu background and swap that wraithlord for something else ? Dunno mayby that Necron Overlord could take his place ?

[Psycho]

Or put in a randomizer in there that picks a random unit to show. One time a wraithlord, another a heretic, another a space marine, etc.

We can suggest even the most ridiculous things if it's just cosmetics, right?

[brutalisto]

Maybe you should start playing 1v1s again as a former chaos player to feel what it's like since you shape the game based on other people's constant complains! I am a player with more than 2000 games as chaos now stopped because these nerfs made it unbearably frustrating in 1v1s!

[DandyFrontline]

Maybe you should start playing 1v1s again as a former chaos player to feel what it's like since you shape the game based on other people's constant complains! I am a player with more than 2000 games as chaos now stopped because these nerfs made it unbearably frustrating in 1v1s!

Why dont u start to master another faction, so u can compare at the end. For example try Eldars or IG

[Swift]

Hey Caeltos i was wondering could you change actual main menu background and swap that wraithlord for something else ? Dunno mayby that Necron Overlord could take his place ?

That would be really cool, but probably not relevant.

[brutalisto]

I'm lvl 60 at all races with chaos Lord being my main with tons of games. Hundreds of games vs elder and ork result in losing squads due to sluggas and banshees ridiculous damage and chase potential. The same scenario billions of times over and over again which is if you lose havoc or noise marines you are already far behind and most likely a genbash on top of a squad loss. Weak tics can't protect noises and havoc now and vs Warlock healing banshees its ridiculous. Chaos Lord gets killed by shees sluggas even with considerable amount of health left because upon retreating due to rotation speed decrease he turns much slower while taking extra melee damage at the same time

[Atlas]

Tread carefully from here. My patience is pretty thin these days.

[Dark Riku]

I'm lvl 60 at all races ...

Congrats, so am I. You are blowing things out of proportion though. If you want I can play Chaos versus whatever you choose to play.
Stop this whining please and start making sense. What you are doing right now isn't helping anyone.

[Forestradio]

@Vengeance Rounds

Well this upgrade is just plain bad design on Relic's end, it doesn't fit into the sm design of being generalist and adaptable to situations, it basically exists to be used against Imperial Guard and (sometimes) against some tanky heroes, especially with FC since it synergizes well with the FTE global and the FC is probably the most likely hero to field a libby in t2.

So in general it should be viable in more matchups and perhaps a bit less potent against IG (except for the lolquisitor who just HOTW and walks over everything as usual, w/e):
Adjust Vengeance Rounds from 75/0 to 65/10 (or 65/15)
Reduce the damage boost from the Vengeance Rounds from 75% to 40-50%
Allow the lascannon to be bought after Vengeance Rounds (in the same way that adrenal glands can be bought after barbed strangler on warriors)

Reduces the potency of VR against IG, especially when it comes to dpsing sents, and purchasing it will delay tech a lot (10-15 power). At the same time, it will encourage a lot more Vengeance Round play with just one devastator (especially as tm/apo), which better fits the sm design (paying more to be able to adapt).

Thoughts?

[Aguxyz]

Still waiting for Ven Dread to be back to normal

[Tex]

Would love to see the LG's melta gun get a bit of love. I need to test the ability to see what it even does. Is it ever better than the sniper rifle?

Inquisitor auspex scan could maybe last 2 more seconds, it is currently very brief. Also, either brazier or crossbow needs to go up to 25 power, probably the crossbow though.

[Black Relic]

Add a small post spawn delay to the pheromone reinforcement. Like a good quarter second if the damage reduction it gives stays since this vs an LA with ravener and 3 split up hormagaunt squads are a pain to deal with.

Also I do what doomblast to go up in damage when the AC is purchased. Because atm i feel the squad isn't that much of a threat. The heretic retain their intended new role of being supportive but now better adapt to an anti melee unit without being a completely dominating one in t1.

Powerful sweep might need another cooldown increase since I can use nearly twice in a drawn out engagement.

Yay to the libby changes. If i can add one little request?? Quickening increases in duration as the libby levels. I want this man alive.

[PhatE]

I'd like to see a very slight move increase speed on the BC as well as nerfing the Rhino Las damage just a little bit. They catch you off balance in a "holy fuck, my falcon is down to near half HP after one hit" kind of way. It's rate of fire is pretty frequent as well so given the acceleration/de-acceleration of transports makes it pretty good.

The BC is insanely slow now that We Are The Hammer buff was removed from him. There is the power sword or whatever it's called in game but that seems like you're better off waiting for a weapon later give its measly DPS and you could have more units.

[HARRYY]

Would love to see the LG's melta gun get a bit of love. I need to test the ability to see what it even does. Is it ever better than the sniper rifle?

Inquisitor auspex scan could maybe last 2 more seconds, it is currently very brief. Also, either brazier or crossbow needs to go up to 25 power, probably the crossbow though.

yeah, the crossbow is really hardcore, damage-wise (whilst you still should melee things to keep them tied up), but also for the ability itself.. Same for the execrurators, they should go up from 20 to 25 power at least (if not 30).
xbow and exe are both Ability-snares and save IGs Ass in the horrific matchups a lot. Early on, but also against T3 infantry squads. comparatively LC and LG can just stare grimful into the T3-battlefield when their lines are collapsing.

[The_Convertant]

Would love to see the LG's melta gun get a bit of love. I need to test the ability to see what it even does. Is it ever better than the sniper rifle?

Inquisitor auspex scan could maybe last 2 more seconds, it is currently very brief. Also, either brazier or crossbow needs to go up to 25 power, probably the crossbow though.

yeah, the crossbow is really hardcore, damage-wise (whilst you still should melee things to keep them tied up), but also for the ability itself.. Same for the execrurators, they should go up from 20 to 25 power at least (if not 30).
xbow and exe are both Ability-snares and save IGs Ass in the horrific matchups a lot. Early on, but also against T3 infantry squads. comparatively LC and LG can just stare grimful into the T3-battlefield when their lines are collapsing.

If the execrurators ability is changed back to channeling I believe 25 power will be acceptable.
Not sure about xbow however. The xbow itself is an okay weapon, doing 35 piecing DPS , but its reach is short as its a pistol. If it has a slight weapon range increase I am fine with the cost increase.

[Dark Riku]

It has 30 range and not range 22 like most pistols...

[Tex]

Anyone know what "fight harder" actually equates to when using it on your infantry?

[The_Convertant]

It has 30 range and not range 22 like most pistols...

It still has a shorter range than normal range weapons like the bolter (38)
As a range weapon wargear upgrade that costs 25 power, will having the same range with most range weapons be too good?

[Forestradio]

Anyone know what "fight harder" actually equates to when using it on your infantry?

reducing the weapon cooldown of your infantry in radius 35 by 50% for 20 seconds.

It basically increases the dps of your nearby infantry if and only if their weapon already has a cooldown. If the weapon doesn't have a cooldown the dps will be unchanged.
just from skimming some of the weapons in the IG codex, it should increase catachan shotgun dps, gm plasma+lasgun dps, but not AKST dps or las/autocannon hwt dps.

About the inquisitor, well this hero is just ridiculous plain and simple, it far overperforms the other two IG heroes and has so many favorable matchups it's not even funny, mostly due to OP wargear and the banewolf which is probably the single most OP thing still left in the IG roster.

Crossbow bolt pistol is ridiculous, it has a huge dps for a t1 weapon, has 100% fotm, and the inquisitor doesn't lose any of her melee capability (dps, melee charge, melee special, etc). It definitely needs to go to 25 power, and also needs to stop preventing units from rotating on the ability which is ridiculous especially against setup teams.

Played a game against Tex Inquisitor a while back, wiped a sent, akst squad (from running over 6 consecutive mines rofl rofl), a baneblade, and a leman russ. Lost only an asm squad (apparently gate of infinity doesn't save units from assail) and still lost the game. Sounds balanced, or maybe I need to l2p.

But what do I know about anything, I like to play the LC which actually has to be tactical and smart about wargear purchases instead of just facerolling everything with a couple of cheesy abilities...

[HARRYY]

yep, totally agree.

LC and LG need some slight buffs tho. very sensitive ones.

[Tex]

weird, not sure why it posted like that previously.

Anyway, what does the DPS increase translate into for a fully upgraded GM squad? Anyone know how to figure that out?

[Wise Windu]

weird, not sure why it posted like that previously.

Anyway, what does the DPS increase translate into for a fully upgraded GM squad? Anyone know how to figure that out?

The cooldown on the squad (Guardsmen only) would change from 1 to 0.5, so the DPS per model would change to 5.19 from 4.12. For a full squad, this would be 51.9 DPS from 41.2 DPS when you don't include the Sergeant and Commissar DPS, I think.

[Crewfinity]

weird, not sure why it posted like that previously.

Anyway, what does the DPS increase translate into for a fully upgraded GM squad? Anyone know how to figure that out?

The cooldown on the squad (Guardsmen only) would change from 1 to 0.5, so the DPS per model would change to 5.19 from 4.12. For a full squad, this would be 51.9 DPS from 41.2 DPS when you don't include the Sergeant and Commissar DPS, I think.

Here's a google spreadsheet that will calculate the DPS for you

i used tactical marine values for setting it up but you can change any of the parameters. just fill in the codex values on the first row, and change any of the modifiers you want. so if you want to see this change, fill in the GM values and then make the cooldown modifier .5

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

[Dark Riku]

LC and LG need some slight buffs tho. very sensitive ones.

No, the INQ needs to be toned down The others don't need to be buffed to her degree...

[CSM Emperor]

yes and no and no

PM's are crazy tough, incredibly useful in all situations as they have good AI with their bolters, good AV with a snaring rocket, and good at tanking a lot of melee hits and slowing down enemy units, as well as synergizing really well with worship. they've needed a nerf for a while.

Autocannon havocs just shit all over everthing for way too little risk/cost. also have been overperforming for a while and are getting a well deserved nerf.

then plague marines cost 400 req and no power as plasma devastrators.