Warp Spiders call-in

[Deflaktor]

Something that irks me quite a bit is the high red cost of the warp spiders call-in.

I suggest to reduce it by 50 red from 200 to 150 red.

Why?
- Warp Spiders are a situational unit, not useful in every matchup.
- A trademark unit for the WSE.
- Feels like an unfair price if compared to the Leman Russ Drop which also costs 200 red and is quite bonkers. (Leman Russ you save 75 energy, Warp Spiders you save 90 req + 40 energy)
- You often cant call the Autarch if you call the warp spiders because of missing red. Either way it is always a choice between the warp spiders and the autarch.
- In many games I am unable to call them in because of missing red. And by the time I have that red I'm usually halfway t3 or bought them in the HQ long ago.

What do you guys think?

[Dark Riku]

Don't compare it to the LR drop. That one is too good and should get changed. And even if the LR drop was fine it's a bad comparison.

The red cost is fine, you get warp spiders instant with no power cost and a 90 req discount.
If you want you can still get warp spiders from your HQ.

[Asmon]

Any unit that is dropped right on the battlefield without any build time required should be heavy on red. WS could do with 175 instead of 200, but no less.

[Metal C0Mmander]

Don't compare it to the LR drop. That one is too good and should get changed. And even if the LR drop was fine it's a bad comparison.

Ok then what about the storm trooper call in at 250 req and 150 red?

[egewithin]

Ok then what about the storm trooper call in at 250 req and 150 red?

Well, I could write down reasons for Spider call should be more epxensive than ST call but no need for that since everyone knows it.

He gave a good reason for this change ; 200 red is hard to reach and even he reaches it, it is too late for them to be effective. I would vote for 150 red and 400 req.

[Lichtbringer]

Any unit that is dropped right on the battlefield without any build time required should be heavy on red. WS could do with 175 instead of 200, but no less.

As long as the Warpspider don't come down with their Aspect (which unlocks the Haywire) AND their teleport is on cooldown after being called in the arival is almost useless. As we all know, they need cover. If they can't teleport right of the bat you have to call them in behind your lines.

I guess you can call them in if a vehicle is escaping with 100 hp and you have a squad in its retreatpath already (you can't call them in in the fog of war). Then you have time to buy the Aspect.

[Tex]

Okay wtf?

Warpspiders are situational?

How about they are one of the best all around units in the entire game.


The call in is too expensive?

You should take a look at the Ravener drop and tell me that the WS call in is too expensive.


They don't start with haywire and teleport starts on cooldown!

Boohoo I say! This is a good thing, and it is for very obvious reasons. Calling in a warpspider squad at the edge of your vision to snipe a fleeing tank would be incredibly cheesy... like the RA tunnels of old that couldn't be crushed.

[Lulgrim]

I don't know about the price optimisation, but having the teleport available directly after call-in would suit the "feeling" and concept of this unit.

As a random note, replacing the call-in with an upgraded version (start with Exarch & Aspect) once you get T3 would be technically easy, but whether it's desirable balance-wise I leave to others.

[Lichtbringer]

I am not saying they need a buff per se. Especially not that they should get the Aspect right of the bat.
Because I personally am really bad at using my red, I find it quite the nice price reduction to have to pay no power for them.

But the teleport onto the field really is not a very good advantage, and barely ever usefull. The best use I find for it is calling them down near the enemy power which you reached with your WSE.

Also the redcost makes the timing very awkward. I mostly just call them in when I want to end the game and think I already have an advantage.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I have no strong opinion either way, I like Warpspiders, I like the Global. (And would rather buff other things ). Just wanted to point out that it feels a bit weird, and that the instant arrival is not what makes that Global good for me.

Edit: My perfect Solution would be a supershortrange teleport right after arriving, so that they can jump the 2 meter into cover, or dodge something. Basically defensiv. But that would be pretty unintuitive.

It would be super fun if you could set two markers like with the Autarch^^ One where they arrive, and the second invisible to the enemy where they jump right after arriving This would make that shortrange teleport feasable.

Ok, now I am rambling

[Deflaktor]

How about they are one of the best all around units in the entire game.

And how is that? Why would I build Warp Spiders against CSM? Or against Imperial Guards? They are only effective against Eldar and Orks or when I want to counter mass Plague Marine spam. Their Haywire Grenade is only useful against pushing vehicles and is a one hit wonder against unprepared enemies. If he has seen your warp spiders once, you will have an extremely hard time pulling off that haywire.

Either way this is not about that. They are completely fine in their current role. They problem is the high red cost of the global. Why should it be higher than that of the Autarch? The Autarch has imo an even bigger impact on the field.

[Ace of Swords]

How about they are one of the best all around units in the entire game.

Their Haywire Grenade is only useful against pushing vehicles and is a one hit wonder against unprepared enemies. If he has seen your warp spiders once, you will have an extremely hard time pulling off that haywire.

You have an hard time teleporting in and throwing a nade that sticks?

[Deflaktor]

When the opponent is prepared and supports his vehicle, yes. It is most of the time a suicide attempt and you will lose at least 2 models in doing that and that is an instant retreat. The pay-off is just not great enough to risk such an attempt. If the opponent overextends his vehicle, then you have an easy time sticking it on it.

Again, I'm not trying to argue over their ability or something. They are in a good spot. The problem is the high red cost. It is easier to field them from the HQ than from the global, imo. I dont think that it is intended.

[Ace of Swords]

When the opponent is prepared and supports his vehicle, yes. It is most of the time a suicide attempt and you will lose at least 2 models in doing that and that is an instant retreat. The pay-off is just not great enough to risk such an attempt. If the opponent overextends his vehicle, then you have an easy time sticking it on it.

Again, I'm not trying to argue over their ability or something. They are in a good spot. The problem is the high red cost. It is easier to field them from the HQ than from the global, imo. I dont think that it is intended.

2 model for a vehicle sounds like a pretty good trade, you know, YOU should be prepared to snipe the vehicle, being able to teleport near it is extremely good as are the spiders, as is the call-in, they aren't a must buy unit, but they aren't situational either, you should build them in most cases, though with all the options eldar have right now for AV you have the freedom of choice.

[Tex]

How about they are one of the best all around units in the entire game.

And how is that? Why would I build Warp Spiders against CSM? Or against Imperial Guards? They are only effective against Eldar and Orks or when I want to counter mass Plague Marine spam. Their Haywire Grenade is only useful against pushing vehicles and is a one hit wonder against unprepared enemies. If he has seen your warp spiders once, you will have an extremely hard time pulling off that haywire.

Either way this is not about that. They are completely fine in their current role. They problem is the high red cost of the global. Why should it be higher than that of the Autarch? The Autarch has imo an even bigger impact on the field.

Let's see shall we?

In general:

Warpspiders do a whopping 95.56 piercing DPS as a squad when fully upgraded. Proficient use of spiders dictates that they will almost always be shooting from behind green cover, an energy shield, or a position that an enemy unit cannot get to easily.

Warpspiders can be blobbed up while having very little fear of anything other than extraordinary sources of AV, for example, luv da dakka + roks.

Because warpspiders can teleport continuously, when microed properly, they will counter heavily armored melee units even though they don't have a superior damage type.

Warpspiders are hands down the best counter-hero unit in the game. If you think about the various specialty units that you would purchase to counter different heroes, warpspiders would counter more heroes better than any other unit in the game.

Warpspiders have the best AV grenade in the game, making aggressive vehicle play against them dubious at best.

Warpspiders can be buffed by all 3 eldar heroes to do MASSIVE damage. This is a big deal because they will continue to do this damage for the duration of the buff due to the inability of your enemy to tie them up.

Specifically:

Why build WS's vs chaos?

Hmmmm. They counter bloodletters, heretics, vanilla csm, kcsm, plague marines, they do a great job against all 3 chaos heroes, and they can completely shutdown bloodcrushers, and khorne dreads without having to expose themselves.
They also do a pretty decent job of flanking havoks, noise marines, blastmasters, and grenade launcher heretics.

???????????????????????????????????????

Why build warp spiders vs IG?

Good question. I like to have the haywire handy to get an ultra fast sent snipe in T2, or to surprise an early chimera. Normally though,why haven't you built 1-2 wraithguard squads at this point? Pretty meh question to be honest. I mean think of it this way: If you don't want more wraithguard against IG, then you probably want more shurikans, rangers, or wraithlords. Its a pretty linear matchup.

They are only effective against eldar and orks (your statement)

??? Yet in the current meta, wraithguard are actually a much stronger purchase in the eldar mirror ???
???
??? So you're telling me you don't want a WS squad against SM when you absolutely know that his first T2 purchase in an even game is going to be a razorback, and scouts are literally the only thing you can bleed ???
??? So you're telling me that you don't want a WS against Nids when WS counter the entire T1/T2 roster and absolutely decimate nid heroes ???
???

I'm ... like... what?

[Deflaktor]

First of all, I agree with you guys. Warp Spiders are a good unit. But I am not arguing about that! Im arguing about the high red cost! Can you please justify it?

Warpspiders do a whopping 95.56 piercing DPS as a squad when fully upgraded. Proficient use of spiders dictates that they will almost always be shooting from behind green cover, an energy shield, or a position that an enemy unit cannot get to easily.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Because warpspiders can teleport continuously, when microed properly, they will counter heavily armored melee units even though they don't have a superior damage type.

Which is a heavy tax on your micro and will let other units leave vulnerable.

Warpspiders are hands down the best counter-hero unit in the game. If you think about the various specialty units that you would purchase to counter different heroes, warpspiders would counter more heroes better than any other unit in the game.

I agree.

Warpspiders have the best AV grenade in the game, making aggressive vehicle play against them dubious at best.

I agree that it makes aggressive vehicle play pretty hard. But it is hard to use against defensive vehicle play.

Warpspiders can be buffed by all 3 eldar heroes to do MASSIVE damage. This is a big deal because they will continue to do this damage for the duration of the buff due to the inability of your enemy to tie them up.

Also agree. But they lose models quickly and thus their DPS. And because of their constant need to be in green cover, they will be away from your front line and thus be focus fired on.

Hmmmm. They counter bloodletters, heretics, vanilla csm, kcsm, plague marines, they do a great job against all 3 chaos heroes, and they can completely shutdown bloodcrushers, and khorne dreads without having to expose themselves.
They also do a pretty decent job of flanking havoks, noise marines, blastmasters, and grenade launcher heretics.

-They not only counter bloodletters, they absolutely obliterate them. Warpspiders are super hard counter to bloodletters.
-Heretics? Come on, everything counters heretics.
-Vanilla CSM? Thats a t1 unit. And no, I would not count that as a counter. Dark Reapers counter Vanilla CSM. Not Spiders.
-KSCM? Just no. KSCM are faster than you can teleport away. And the warp spiders' outstanding damage wont do much against that speed.
-Plague Marines... somewhat. They deal good damage to them. But in a recent match I had to deal with 3 Plague Marine squads and as a response I built 3 Warp Spider squads. They do counter them, but it is pretty close and wrong micro can make you lose pretty quickly. Also if anything else shoots at you besides the plague marines it is instant retreat.
-Yes, Warp Spiders are a general counter to all heroes not only chaos heroes
-Like already said, they shutdown aggressive vehicle play, so yes they will shutdown bloodcrushers and khorne dreads. But will be useless against vanilla dreads.
-Autarch does a decent job of flanking havoks, noise marines, blastmasters and grenade launcher tics. Warp Spiders are too costly to risk something like that.

Why build warp spiders vs IG?

Good question. I like to have the haywire handy to get an ultra fast sent snipe in T2, or to surprise an early chimera. Normally though,why haven't you built 1-2 wraithguard squads at this point? Pretty meh question to be honest. I mean think of it this way: If you don't want more wraithguard against IG, then you probably want more shurikans, rangers, or wraithlords. Its a pretty linear matchup.

It is super super hard to haywire a chimera. Other than that I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. So you actually agree with me in this point?

They are only effective against eldar and orks (your statement)

??? Yet in the current meta, wraithguard are actually a much stronger purchase in the eldar mirror ???
???
??? So you're telling me you don't want a WS squad against SM when you absolutely know that his first T2 purchase in an even game is going to be a razorback, and scouts are literally the only thing you can bleed ???
??? So you're telling me that you don't want a WS against Nids when WS counter the entire T1/T2 roster and absolutely decimate nid heroes ???
???

- That is precisely the problem. Wraithguard are a stronger purchase, even though Warp Spiders are also effective. At least for the WSE it would be make more sense to get the Warp Spiders call-in.

- No, I will never want to purchase Warp Spiders against any kind of light transport. You WILL lose models trying to haywire it. Models are expensive while a light transport is not. Even against Orks it is hard to haywire their trukk because of the high risk of Moshaboys coming out and specialing your Warp Spider squad.

- The entire T1/T2 roster?
I dont think they really counter termagaunts or hormagaunts, since they are so many models and they constantly have to switch targets after killing a model. At least they do not counter them as hard as a T2 squad should.

Can you please reduce the amount of question marks, I'm trying to make a serious discussion here. Also can we start arguing now why the red cost of the Warp Spiders Call-in is too high? Instead of arguing over whether a good unit is good.

So here is my standard situation:
I get to T2, I usually have around 120 red. Not enough for Autarch but quite close.
I build my first T2 unit, I have around 140 red.
In the upcoming engagement I will sooner or later reach the 150 red (after killing a few models and losing a few myself). Now I have the option to either call in the Autarch and turn the tide with her amazing grenades. Or I wait for 50 red more, which is gonna be the next engagement.
When it is time to finish building the 2nd T2 unit, I finally reach 200 red.
Now there is this choice between building Warp spiders and going T3.

So at this point there are only 2 possible situations in which I would choose Warp Spiders over T3:
- The opponent builds something that Warp Spiders amazingly good counter (Bloodletters, Melee Walker)
- I take heavy losses in an engagement and use it as a recover option, usually followed by a 2nd Warp Spider squad in the HQ.

However, the first option only really happens very rarely as it is already late T2 and the opponent would rather also go T3. And the 2nd option... well I guess just about every call-in squad can be used as a recovery option.

[ChokoBambus]

WS might be great, but they are also one of the heaviest squads to sustain in a game. They are also very fragile so more often then not one blast will send them home. Not saying that they are bad or anything, but they cost an arm and a leg and are made of tissue paper.

[Ace of Swords]

WS might be great, but they are also one of the heaviest squads to sustain in a game. They are also very fragile so more often then not one blast will send them home. Not saying that they are bad or anything, but they cost an arm and a leg and are made of tissue paper.

This is true, they bleed a lot, more so in team games (on tight maps) than 1v1s, but that's the difference between using them well or not, knowing when and where to engage, knowing how much you want to bleed and actually knowing if you want them over a squad like reapers or FDs depending on the map and what your opponent has, they aren't an A-move unit, people need to actually put some thoughts in their actions.

[egewithin]

Are you discussing spiders are good or bad, or discussing do they need a cost decrease at calling red.

Just reminding.

[Cyris]

I'm gonna go ahead and do that thing I like doing: add real data to a discussion.

Full disclosure, I think the WS callin is too expensive (primarily on the red). When playing WSE, I feel I've got a lot of ways to spend Red, so saving it to get a req/power discout dosn't happen often. I also suspect it stacks up poorly compared to the costs of other callins. But, I might be wrong and it's fine. Let's learn together by walking through this mess...

I'm skipping callins that summon things that can only be acquired through a callin (Autarch, Banewolf etc)

Drop Pod - 350/0/100 - t1
Discount - 100 req
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage, continued on-map renforceemet

Komandos - 300/0/200 - t3
Discount - 100/40

Warp Spiders - 350/0/200 - t2
Discount - 90/40

Seer Council - 500/0/300 - t3
Discount - 50/100

Warriors - 300/0/150 - t2
Discount - 0/25
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage

Ravs - 300/0/150 - t2
Discount - 50/40
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage

Without Number - 0/0/250 - t3
Discount - 625/30
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage, upgraded squads

Storm Troopers - 250/0/150 - t2
Discount - 150 req
Bonuses: Starting infiltration

Russ - 500/50/200 - t3
Discount - 60/75


Welp, there ya go. Did this help? I dunno, but it was fun to write up and consider. Enjoy!

[Deflaktor]

Nice data, thanks.

So the Warp Spider call-in is the most expensive t2 call-in in terms of red cost. So maybe it can be streamlined among the others?

I think the cooldown on their teleport should stay though. They are still good retreat killers and it might get abused to call them in for easy retreat kills if the cooldown gets removed.

[Lesten]

Since warp spiders aren't as crazy as they are in vanilla, I think a red cost reduction wouldn't be the end of the world. I don't play the WSE but I can imagine you would rather use your red for something else if the cost is 200.

Drop Pod - 350/0/100 - t1
Discount - 100 req
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage, continued on-map renforceemet

Komandos - 300/0/200 - t3
Discount - 100/40

Warp Spiders - 350/0/200 - t2
Discount - 90/40

Seer Council - 500/0/300 - t3
Discount - 50/100

Warriors - 300/0/150 - t2
Discount - 0/25
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage

Ravs - 300/0/150 - t2
Discount - 50/40
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage

Without Number - 0/0/250 - t3
Discount - 625/30
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage, upgraded squads

Storm Troopers - 250/0/150 - t2
Discount - 150 req
Bonuses: Starting infiltration

Russ - 500/50/200 - t3
Discount - 60/75

Side note: Seer Council is the only one "dropped" at base. I know, gates, but there's no guarantee you'll have a functioning gate in a relevant position plus it's at least 100 extra red. AND it's a few more seconds of micro to get them into one gate and out of another gate. Not saying the global should be changed, it's fine I suppose, just pointing out that there's a big difference from the other drops in the list.

Side note #2: drop pod is only 350/0/100 for all that?! Seems really strong...

Side note #3: leman russ drop (or just the leman russ) should get some minor nerfs imo.

[ChokoBambus]

As far as I am concerned, Kommando drop needs a an energy cost. It provides a tier 3 squad in tier 2. It is also one of the reasons Knob is great against Eldar, due to not slowing down tech at all, while providing orks with a strong squad for map presence that is power free. Even the WS drop needs to spend power for WS upgrades.

[PhatE]

As far as I am concerned, Kommando drop needs a an energy cost. It provides a tier 3 squad in tier 2. It is also one of the reasons Knob is great against Eldar, due to not slowing down tech at all, while providing orks with a strong squad for map presence that is power free. Even the WS drop needs to spend power for WS upgrades.

Kommandos call-in is definitely in T3. I don't recall it ever being changed back to T2 since the mod's inception.

[ChokoBambus]

Oh my mistake then. Sry

[Nurland]

I think WS call in could get a slight red cost reduction. Maybe to 175.

[Rataxas]

How about they are one of the best all around units in the entire game.

And how is that? Why would I build Warp Spiders against CSM? Or against Imperial Guards? They are only effective against Eldar and Orks or when I want to counter mass Plague Marine spam. Their Haywire Grenade is only useful against pushing vehicles and is a one hit wonder against unprepared enemies. If he has seen your warp spiders once, you will have an extremely hard time pulling off that haywire.

Either way this is not about that. They are completely fine in their current role. They problem is the high red cost of the global. Why should it be higher than that of the Autarch? The Autarch has imo an even bigger impact on the field.

Let's see shall we?

In general:

Warpspiders do a whopping 95.56 piercing DPS as a squad when fully upgraded. Proficient use of spiders dictates that they will almost always be shooting from behind green cover, an energy shield, or a position that an enemy unit cannot get to easily.

Warpspiders can be blobbed up while having very little fear of anything other than extraordinary sources of AV, for example, luv da dakka + roks.

Because warpspiders can teleport continuously, when microed properly, they will counter heavily armored melee units even though they don't have a superior damage type.

Warpspiders are hands down the best counter-hero unit in the game. If you think about the various specialty units that you would purchase to counter different heroes, warpspiders would counter more heroes better than any other unit in the game.

Warpspiders have the best AV grenade in the game, making aggressive vehicle play against them dubious at best.

Warpspiders can be buffed by all 3 eldar heroes to do MASSIVE damage. This is a big deal because they will continue to do this damage for the duration of the buff due to the inability of your enemy to tie them up.

Specifically:

Why build WS's vs chaos?

Hmmmm. They counter bloodletters, heretics, vanilla csm, kcsm, plague marines, they do a great job against all 3 chaos heroes, and they can completely shutdown bloodcrushers, and khorne dreads without having to expose themselves.
They also do a pretty decent job of flanking havoks, noise marines, blastmasters, and grenade launcher heretics.

???????????????????????????????????????

Why build warp spiders vs IG?

Good question. I like to have the haywire handy to get an ultra fast sent snipe in T2, or to surprise an early chimera. Normally though,why haven't you built 1-2 wraithguard squads at this point? Pretty meh question to be honest. I mean think of it this way: If you don't want more wraithguard against IG, then you probably want more shurikans, rangers, or wraithlords. Its a pretty linear matchup.

They are only effective against eldar and orks (your statement)

??? Yet in the current meta, wraithguard are actually a much stronger purchase in the eldar mirror ???
???
??? So you're telling me you don't want a WS squad against SM when you absolutely know that his first T2 purchase in an even game is going to be a razorback, and scouts are literally the only thing you can bleed ???
??? So you're telling me that you don't want a WS against Nids when WS counter the entire T1/T2 roster and absolutely decimate nid heroes ???
???

I'm ... like... what?

You talk craps TEX , you know it's not like this. I agree WS are an great unit , but compare them to the CSM inferno , INFERNO is going to win for sure. And you can't use cover all the time.

First of all, I agree with you guys. Warp Spiders are a good unit. But I am not arguing about that! Im arguing about the high red cost! Can you please justify it?

You just did that yourself ... justified so why even ask about the rest ?

[Dark Riku]

I agree with Tex about the cost being fine (me and Tex rarely agree ). Keep in mind this is a global from a ranged, teleporting commander, with melee specials, with respectable ranged dps that can be upgraded and buffed to extremely good DPS. You should be gaining red with this guy. Warp spiders have a big impact, fielding them that much sooner and saving power while doing so is worth the red.

[Ace of Swords]

I think WS call in could get a slight red cost reduction. Maybe to 175.

Really not, 200 is a fair price, the WSE is already the best capper in the game, he doesn't need extra red to pop more gates around if you wish to buy power-free Spiders.

[saltychipmunk]

the warp spider callin is one of the better call ins in the game.

you get a reasonable reduction in req cost, a elimination of power cost and you can poop them anywhere you have los? god damn i wish some of the call ins from other races were half as awesome as that one.

[Kvn]

the warp spider callin is one of the better call ins in the game.

you get a reasonable reduction in req cost, a elimination of power cost and you can poop them anywhere you have los? god damn i wish some of the call ins from other races were half as awesome as that one.

Banewolf for insta-wiping gens, Terminators and Paladins for heavy hitting killing potential/sustainability/general high-impact, LRC for a big reinforcement offering gun platform, Kommandos for a quick nuke setup, Stormtroopers coming in stealthed for some supporting fire or to upgrade with melta-kit for assassinating a vehicle, Seer Council to drop a whopping 100 power off their price tag, Autarch for moderate line disruption and arguably one of the best solo-cappers who can also function as support, Leman Russ drop for instant awesomeness in a reasonably priced package, etc.

Not vouching one way or the other on the Warp Spider call in, but it's definitely not the top of the line callin. I'm pretty much neutral on whether or not it's fine as it is or needs a buff. Just as an added note, Spiders tend to lose a lot of their frightening potential come late game when units aren't afraid of piercing damage, and are toting enough firepower to make them evaporate, green cover or no.