2.5.X Balance

[Dark Riku]

@Harry

Imperial Guard
The INQ's wargear is all really cheap, the brazier and bolt pistol should both be 25 power. Excruciators 30 and the ability should become channelled again.
Together with making a new dmg type for the banewolf that does no damage to generators. I'd start there.
LC really isn't as hard to play as Tex claims imo, but his stubbornness doesn't seem OTT to me.

Space Marines
All the WW does is disrupt and it already sees no play in 1v1.
This is more like a teamgame only unit, and does a good job there.

Orks
The truk is priced just fine imo and I am liking the new 2.5.1 changes posted.
Nobs wreck face, but making them not able to benefit from any suppression reducing or removing effect is going overboard.
Stikks and bustas are priced just fine. The one thing that bothers me about stikks is their high MS though. Artillery that can defend itself in melee :/

Eldar
I'd be one of the first to probably nerf Eldar But the falcon doesn't seem like a problem to me. The T3 bubble upgrade however still kinda is imo.

Chaos
Autocannon havocs really need a damage decrease and it looks like they are getting one in 2.5.1
Raptors aren't "needed" but their introduction opens up a more versatile gameplay I think.
Moving them to T2 would be problematic. Bloodletters are already in T2. Too much conflict between those 2.

Tyranids
Good tunnel play needs to be rewarded. Max 3 tunnels is overboard again.
I'm with Tex on this one. If you want to complain about something like that, start with the Eldar gates.
La only has 600HP already ...


@Choko (feels like a broken record by now)
Leaders dying is not a shee only problem. Position your shees better, they do not need buffs.
Autarch shield does conflict with her other abilities. This does not mean it's bad, it's a diffrent playstyle you chosen when upgrading her.
-- Example: Force commander shield conflicts with all his other abilities, buff FC shield pls. No, I don't think so...
Rangers are still the best detectors in the game while being able to set up many plays.
DE leaders detecting is so strong for teh Eldar race. one of your core units is now immune to infiltrators, mines, etc...

What's wrong with the thornback upgrade?

[HARRYY]

wow, havent seen the 2.5.1 log.
thanks for your feedback men!

[ChokoBambus]

I am not talking about a straight up shee buff, and I agree that banshee leader dying is not an eldar specific problem. Someone mentioned leaders rebuying for reduced cost after the first purchase, and I sort of like the idea.

What I am suggesting is a premium late game upgrade that would scale up banshees a bit more into the very late game, considering that its a 15+3 pop that is comparable to tactical marine cost and/or upkeep. It is not unheard of to scale squads in such ways. Not a buff, but an option to pay for an upgrade to keep the squad a bit more relevant in the late game. As I have mentioned Banshees are fine in tier 1 and 2.

As far as Orks go, I would rather not nerf slugga Nobs, even if they are sort of too good. It keeps sluggas relevant later on.

[egewithin]

Why they should fit for T3? I am okay with their performance. If you need melee in T3? Go Seers. Not every unit needs to size for late game. For example ; no one ever asked something for Scout T3.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Why they should fit for T3? I am okay with their performance. If you need melee in T3? Go Seers. Not every unit needs to size for late game. For example ; no one ever asked something for Scout T3.

Scouts are not so much a combat unit than a utility unit to be fair. They scale into the late game because they can infiltrate and scout ahead , toss grenades and have the shotgun blast.

[Asmon]

Autarch shield does conflict with her other abilities. This does not mean it's bad, it's a diffrent playstyle you chosen when upgrading her.
-- Example: Force commander shield conflicts with all his other abilities, buff FC shield pls. No, I don't think so...

FC shield grants 5 to 1 damage absorption and prevents weapon knockback. Autarch's does neither, and is only 25 req cheaper.

[ChokoBambus]

I do not think that adding a small passive energy regen buff to the shield purchase would hurt.

[Dark Riku]

FC shield grants 5 to 1 damage absorption and prevents weapon knockback. Autarch's does neither, and is only 25 req cheaper.

FFS Asmon, it's to show the bad train of thought. Just insert any bubble upgrade there.

[Tex]

In all fairness though, I think the autarch shield should at least get the 5:1 and weapon_knockback immunity.

[Cyris]

In all fairness though, I think the autarch shield should at least get the 5:1 and weapon_knockback immunity.

Ditto. Autarch won't be OP with this change, and a weak upgrade will become more attractive. It would be a different story if the shield was a starting ability, but you have to buy it.

[HARRYY]

From my current experiences

- SM advanced targetting should cost 5 power. its definately worth it and delaying tech-speed slightly then.
- Same for Slugga-Burnas (from 15 to 20), as people said in another Thread.
- I'd also be fine when the Flamer for GMs go up from 15 to 20 power in return.

such things should be done more like a decision and not like the common routine.

Further, I have encountered WL's knockback leap-attack being abused. seriously? I know some people dont do it, 'cause they are fair&mannered people, but SOME are still frequently abusing it to win their encounters. If there was money to win, we'd see "whos-the-best-abuser battles". This should definately not be in the game, esp. since vanilla fixed this Problem *cough*. Ok, they just threw it out. But PLEASE. The balance-Team should remove the leap and give him something else in return. The WL is already super-stroonk! If the top WL Players would need to abuse him to win, they would do it. Apparantly they dont need it.

Note: I think where we need to see some toning down for orks T2 is a slight decrease in the hp and the damage of the slugga nob, as well as a slight decrease in the damage done by the weirdboy normal attack.

Well, anything is welcome regarding orks toning-down

Tunnels: Disagree. RA IMO is the 4th hardest hero to play (at least at full capacity). He has a huge micro skill ceiling and you should be rewarded for building a shit ton of tunnels and positioning them well. The tunnels are very easy to remove already, and they can be crushed. I would think webway gates are far more worthy of complaint..

The only real (micro-)annoyance is turning auto-reinforce on each time again. Loading out a shitbunch of hormas+warriors (hello Synapse) in the right moment tho (unload key is no effort to press) is a real game-winner. Overall it might be true he has a higher skill-ceiling but still, hes the most deadly nid-commanders because of his meta I'd say. Admittedly I was a bit harsh on the suggestion, but what if the ammount of tunnels is capped 6 then? It will limit him in his possible ceiling! Guess only Soom could still abuse his full potential to the maximum

Lictor: 50/50. I want the lictor to get even more work, but he just had his HP lowered with this patch and he does feel a hell of a lot squishier. I think what really needs to be looked is the fact that he has no urgency for energy management, meaning that he will almost always have energy to be cloaked and flesh hook, and this makes his adrenal glands armor completely useless.

Hm.. yeah. Lets see about the lictor. Generally I find stealthed heroes always a pain in the arse, Knob being the bigger threat tho

[Dark Riku]

Leap being abused how...? It's a leap, knocks you back. Very powerful sure. Especially with Eldar tricks

[HARRYY]

while performing the leap click on another target, then he jumps 1000 meters

[Dark Riku]

That's a bug with all leap units. ASM, hormas, ect.

[HARRYY]

That's a bug with all leap units. ASM, hormas, ect.

and thats really unfair for a commander-unit.
why?
If this happens on a squad its a bit different. At least when 1 model is supressed, the whole squad is supressed then.

BUT In a case of a single unit, a commander-unit its PLAIN UNFAIR AND was removed from vanilla for this REASON. Its breaking the design of rock-paper-scissors as its obviously unintended (half-screen KB-teleport by clicking "target B" when the KB-attack triggers on "target A").

One of the first versions of ELITE had changelog "WL get leap back" and I was like "nah, im not gonna play this mod".
well, I really wonder its still in the game.

[Lesten]

Maybe if the knockback on the leap could only trigger once every X seconds, if such a thing is possible (just the knockback, not the leap itself).
Though obviously a preferred solution would be to fix the leap bug somehow. Removing the leap knockback from the WL would be a shame, it's such a fitting and iconic perk for him. And I gotta say, I haven't heard of it being abused before or seen any complaints about it as far as I can remember, and it's been in elite mod for ages...

[Tex]

Glad to see you are coming to terms with some things in the mod Harry.

As far as changing flamer costs back to 20 power, I would say absolutely not. Here is why: flamers were initially buffed because shootas were initially nerfed. Notice how triple shootas isn't a thing anymore? Now with that said, flamers were over performing, so they got a cost increase, and I find that it has balanced them out quite nicely. Again, I urge you to direct your attention to the massive stats that the slugga nob has. He needs a tiny bit of shaving down.

Also, if the guardsmen flamer went back to 20 power, I would officially stop using it. It is such a massive opportunity loss to purchase it in the first place (no plasma in T2) that you really need it to be a great investment in T2. If it went back to 20 power, I think the IG meta would switch heavily back into multi-las turret pushes onto the power farm.

I have yet to see leap being abused in the mod. It does exist though, and I do remember it.

I'm still mulling over advanced targetters... and tbh, I really like that they are an option. Devs are (I know Riku definitely agrees with me here) probably the worst setup team in the game when compared directly with their racial counter parts. I think a small power cost might be okay, even if SM are incredibly power starved as a race, but I really don't like the idea of devs switching from vengeance rounds in T1 and early T2, to a las-cannon once a vehicle comes out. I think it will provide too much dominance and flexibility to a race that is supposed to just be largely flexibile.

[HARRYY]

and it's been in elite mod for ages...

yeah, I wonder myself. maybe people do not complain about it for whatever reason.

I have encountered WL doing this 2 times now. he tied up HWT with teleport. he triggered leap on GM, but then jumped up to my HWT a quarter-screen away. It was not changing the whole match, ... not in this match.

unfair, unintended...

[HARRYY]

Glad to see you are coming to terms with some things in the mod Harry.

Again, I urge you to direct your attention to the massive stats that the slugga nob has. He needs a tiny bit of shaving down.

tiny bit ?
against IG ork can spend 0 power T1 now, then when teching up T2 theyre going for burna,next is nob-leader+ wartrukk, put 2x sluggas inside .. happy ork-wagon. I cannot counter this with IG at all. besides I dont lose my farm, map more or less equal.

Also, if the guardsmen flamer went back to 20 power, I would officially stop using it. It is such a massive opportunity loss to purchase it in the first place (no plasma in T2) that you really need it to be a great investment in T2. If it went back to 20 power, I think the IG meta would switch heavily back into multi-las turret pushes onto the power farm.

yeah. you are right on this I suppose. then IG could keep 15 power flamers. The turrets: Thats what I gonna test next games anyway. I have played top ork/chaos and I realized now, those 15 power spend on GM-flamers are neck-breakers for your whole match if you dont manage to raze the farm. its plain gg.

I'm still mulling over advanced targetters... and tbh, I really like that they are an option. Devs are (I know Riku definitely agrees with me here) probably the worst setup team in the game when compared directly with their racial counter parts. I think a small power cost might be okay, even if SM are incredibly power starved as a race, but I really don't like the idea of devs switching from vengeance rounds in T1 and early T2, to a las-cannon once a vehicle comes out. I think it will provide too much dominance and flexibility to a race that is supposed to just be largely flexibile.

2x deva in T1, one with targetters...pain, pain, pain. .... low upkeep. low reinforcement costs. good tech-speed through this, because you can maintain 2x farm due to good eco and low investment costs req-wise. just advance step by step, taking the situation to lock down opponents farm.
I cant do shit against this with IG. I cant move or push once 2x deva out. he advances slowly each encounter I lose, then got me locked in.
2nd dev fast lascannon T2 if I go chim. gg.

[Ace of Swords]

Glad to see you are coming to terms with some things in the mod Harry.

Again, I urge you to direct your attention to the massive stats that the slugga nob has. He needs a tiny bit of shaving down.

tiny bit ?
against IG ork can spend 0 power T1 now, then when teching up T2 theyre going for burna,next is nob-leader+ wartrukk, put 2x sluggas inside .. happy ork-wagon. I cannot counter this with IG at all. besides I dont lose my farm, map more or less equal.
.

against IG ork can spend 0 power T1

Replayyy....? lol

[ChokoBambus]

Question:

Noise marine artillery fire KDs through shimmer orb. Intended?

[Lesten]

Question:

Noise marine artillery fire KDs through shimmer orb. Intended?

Yes. From 2.4 changelog:

- Shimmer Orb no longer makes units inside the orb immune to special attacks/knockdown.

[HARRYY]

Replayyy....? lol

Yeah, I was laughing my guts out when I repeatedly got outteched. its also a bit map dependent

[Adeptus Noobus]

Maybe if the knockback on the leap could only trigger once every X seconds, if such a thing is possible (just the knockback, not the leap itself).

There already exists a 12 second cooldown for the leap. He can't just jump all over the map as he pleases.

[Tex]

Against 2x Dev I would hope that you have at least 1 spotter or catachan squad allowing you to disrupt the devs and do some forward damage before having to fall back outside of the firing arc. What you should be doing is using IG early game superiority (whatever it ends up being in your playstyle) and grabbing and holding as much map as possible for as long as possible in T1. Then when you see your opponent shift the matchup in his favor with certain squad purchases, you can counter them with your T2 purchase as you should realistically beat him there assuming he buys 2 devs.

I'm thinking you need a manticore in the worst way here.

[HARRYY]

He can't just jump all over the map as he pleases.

Well, in fact it's enough when its happening once in ONE encounter, this way you can Counter Setup Teams for free. Other Heroes have a teleporter for this, or must buy one

[Lesten]

Maybe if the knockback on the leap could only trigger once every X seconds, if such a thing is possible (just the knockback, not the leap itself).

There already exists a 12 second cooldown for the leap. He can't just jump all over the map as he pleases.

Hmm, I suspected as much, though he seems to be jumping around more than that. But then again, I'm not really familiar with the warlock.

Since it's a bug, it's pretty poor sportsmanship to exploit it. Maybe don't play against those who do? (Of course, better if it was fixed.)

[Lichtbringer]

I never saw anyone abuse the bug. But I also play Eldar so I don't like to play too much Mirrormatches
I also never saw the bug talked about, and didn't even know it existed untill I recently accidentially did it with my banshees.

I agree that it can be pretty gamebreaking when really abused, instant counter to setupteams.
Maybe something similar to the Forcecommanders Thunderhammer can be done? Not sure on the technical details.

[ChokoBambus]

I will try to give feedback on a race per race basis, but first I want to take a look at some of the general stuff:
- squad leaders need to be the last to die for all races
or
- squad leaders need to be reinforced for 50% of the cost after their first death

- Terminators of all varieties need to be on a half cool down when teched to tier 3. Most of the time their counters have comparable costs but significant build times and/or spawn at the base

- all setup squad HPs increased from 675 to 750 when the AV upgrade is purchased. They wipe so easily in tier 2.

Eldar: lack of reliable late game detection that is not tied to dead weight squads. Perhaps seers could be made into detectors?

- banshees not scaling into the late game as comparable squads, but having comparable cost and upkeep. And I know people will call me crazy but see how useful banshees are when critical mass is reached or some of the higher tier squads hit the field. With levels, even the squads they supposedly counter furk them up. They need a late game premium upgrade to scale them. Every core squad gets one.

Orks: general easy and speed of teching while able to keep high pressure on the gen farm. Adding certain power increases to dull the tech speed seems ok.
- burna cost increased by 5 power
- Truck cost increased by 10 power
- Kommando Nob default shoota damage decreased from 70 to 60, i.e. 35 dps to 30 dps.

SM:
- FC thunder hammer damage/special damage decreased
- TM bionics damage decreased

Nids:
- Thornback power cost increased from 50 to 75
- rippers degenerate health when spawned

Chaos:
- is it possible to add an AOE warning sign for the AOE damage of plaque cloud? Sometimes due to terrain colors it is difficult to spot it
- rest covered in 2.5.1. discussion

GK:
- flamer squad cost increased slightly, hp decreased to 300 per member

IG:
- review of Hero war gear costs.

[HARRYY]

im ok with this ecept for eldar detection.

skull-probe was added to INQ, maybe something similar to eldar heroes? like "wraith-eye" granting kind of detection spell for 8 seconds?!