CSM Champion with marks ( CSM for last time I guess )

[egewithin]

Enough about CSM already, I know. But I was keeeping this in mind for a while.

CSM Champion is perfect with Eternal War only. He works very good and I have no problem about that. But, when he gets a mark, he is not so different from other marines. Here are the problems I have experianced :

+ His weapons are same with all other marines. All other squad leaders very oftenly have much better weapons compared with the rest of the squad. I know his axe is powerful like the rest of the squad, but why would I buy another marine, only more expensive?

+ Champion doesn't give any passive abilitys even. Why did I said before he doesn't have any abilitys? Because we don't need and ability. MoT and an ability would tburn down the balance.

+ He dies too oftenly since CSM are not so tanky and with only 4 models it is much easyer him to being target. Other squad leaders don't die that often. He is 25 power to reinforce, not cheap at all! This is a serious issue if we think about MoK. He dies too oftenly and very expensive to reinforce.

What do you think about it?

[Crewfinity]

CSM as a squad and with their champion are 100 percent fine right now.

25 power is worth it. MoT champ has more awesome inferno damage and adds a good chunk of health to the squad. Absolutely worth 25 power.

MoK champ has more awesome chain axe and a melta pistol for crying out loud. Absolutely worth 25 power.

Chaos undivided champ has slaughter ability. Absolutely worth 25 power.

[egewithin]

25 power is worth it. MoT champ has more awesome inferno damage and adds a good chunk of health to the squad. Absolutely worth 25 power.

MoK champ has more awesome chain axe and a melta pistol for crying out loud. Absolutely worth 25 power.

No, because they all do same damage. Even Codex doesn't has another place to show how much damage they do. Only difference of Champion comes with MoK and it is a pistol. A good one but come on, doesn't worth the prize.

[Cyris]

I personally wouldn't mind the MoT Champ to get a small buff. MoK brings that awesome melta pistol, while the MoT is "just" a 75 more hp model for real expensive. Like, maybe if he kept his chainsword (MS still at 60) and pistol, but upgrade it to shoot inferno bolts at the normal dps of the squad (much like the Tac Sarge).

That said, I don't play Chaos much lately. The unit seems largely fine as is. I really like how going no mark is a real option these days, making the unit a lot more versatile.

[Nurland]

Wouldn't really buff MoT or MoK CSM at all. They are in a good spot atm.

MoK CSM the squad leader has a bit lower impact than some other squad leaders but MoK is an upgrade to a ranged squad with overall solid stats per model.

[egewithin]

but MoK is an upgrade to a ranged squad with overall solid stats per model.

I have no issue with the squad it self. They are an amazing strike force IMO.

But the Champion doesn't give anything to the squad. Has no difference, he dies a lot, he is expensive, sooo in short; no reason to buy.

[Ace of Swords]

but MoK is an upgrade to a ranged squad with overall solid stats per model.

I have no issue with the squad it self. They are an amazing strike force IMO.

But the Champion doesn't give anything to the squad. Has no difference, he dies a lot, he is expensive, sooo in short; no reason to buy.

He makes a fuck huge difference in melee fights, try to fight upgraded shees without the AC on your Kmarines.

[Black Relic]

May I ask you how do you use your CSM? And what do you have trouble against? Because the AC is a great addition period. I get the CSM leader more than the Tac leader tbh. So I am curious, maybe submit a replay so we can help and give your pointers?

[CSM Emperor]

I agree the aspiring leader on CSM with mark should add more

[Prodigal Son]

Having played Chaos a lot, I must say the aspiring champion is great. Without him the squad feels so much weaker, however I have some complaints and caveats with him. He fucking dies a lot. Especially against grey knights, as they don't scatter their fire, so they just target the AC, meaning I have to keep repurchasing him. Again it's worth it to, but does it also take a lot of power away for doing that every engagement with potentially 2 to three squads, yes. I also believe the MOK AC is fine where he is, he's great, but the MOT is pretty garbage in comparison IMO. I think instead of a bolter he should be equipped with a staff similar to the sorcerers and use psychic ranged abilities. As far as damage goes I think he should attack less with this weapon, but do only slightly less damage with each hit. This allows him to be able to help his squad against late game melee units (or just units that tie them up in melee later on) with a special attack to give them some space. His weaponskill should only be average as to balance this out, but it at least gives you the option of defending yourself in melee instead of getting absolutely shit on after getting MOT.

[Raven]

Having played Chaos a lot, I must say the aspiring champion is great. Without him the squad feels so much weaker, however I have some complaints and caveats with him. He fucking dies a lot. Especially against grey knights, as they don't scatter their fire, so they just target the AC, meaning I have to keep repurchasing him. Again it's worth it to, but does it also take a lot of power away for doing that every engagement with potentially 2 to three squads, yes. I also believe the MOK AC is fine where he is, he's great, but the MOT is pretty garbage in comparison IMO. I think instead of a bolter he should be equipped with a staff similar to the sorcerers and use psychic ranged abilities. As far as damage goes I think he should attack less with this weapon, but do only slightly less damage with each hit. This allows him to be able to help his squad against late game melee units (or just units that tie them up in melee later on) with a special attack to give them some space. His weaponskill should only be average as to balance this out, but it at least gives you the option of defending yourself in melee instead of getting absolutely shit on after getting MOT.

I really like this idea. Maybe the Sorcerer could get a Doonmbolt ability similar to the Chaos Sorcerer, though obviously not as spammable.

[Prodigal Son]

Having played Chaos a lot, I must say the aspiring champion is great. Without him the squad feels so much weaker, however I have some complaints and caveats with him. He fucking dies a lot. Especially against grey knights, as they don't scatter their fire, so they just target the AC, meaning I have to keep repurchasing him. Again it's worth it to, but does it also take a lot of power away for doing that every engagement with potentially 2 to three squads, yes. I also believe the MOK AC is fine where he is, he's great, but the MOT is pretty garbage in comparison IMO. I think instead of a bolter he should be equipped with a staff similar to the sorcerers and use psychic ranged abilities. As far as damage goes I think he should attack less with this weapon, but do only slightly less damage with each hit. This allows him to be able to help his squad against late game melee units (or just units that tie them up in melee later on) with a special attack to give them some space. His weaponskill should only be average as to balance this out, but it at least gives you the option of defending yourself in melee instead of getting absolutely shit on after getting MOT.

I really like this idea. Maybe the Sorcerer could get a Doonmbolt ability similar to the Chaos Sorcerer, though obviously not as spammable.

This might be too powerful. If you were to give either marks abilities with their AC's I think the squad overall would have to be nerfed first. What I think should happen instead is add more marks to the equation, such as mark of nurgle and slaanesh. The marks can't be changed so the CSM don't become like the SM who are meant to be more flexible. As for a mark of nurgle I really like the idea of giving them a bile spewer, as right now the Sorcerer hero has no way in the early game of bashing power like most other factions (with flame weapons). The plague champion does, and the chaos lord kind of does, but I think allowing for CSM to get bile spewers (which are permanent unlike the combi flamer/bile spewer on their respective heroes) would be a positive change for the faction over all. To counteract the massive power of the bile spewer, they could also make the mark of nurgle deal damage over time, but change the damage type from piercing to light (I think it's called light?). This also gives chaos a potential option against strategies that mass units without having to build noise marines, which can be clumsy to use as set up teams, and easy to murder in their normal state. Again keep in mind they can't change back, so if they are in a 2v2/3v3, they become much worse against SM, GK, Chaos, and more vehicle heavy strats with the mark of nurgle.

As for Slaanesh, I've always wanted him to be more represented in the game, however I don't know how to really do so without being broken, or without copying the units from another race basically, as howling banshees would perform a similar role to Daemonettes, and the idea of a keeper of secrets alluring and seducing enemies makes the sorcerer's tome look bad/means with a sorcerer on the same team you could control 2 squads of terminators, which is actually stupid.

[saltychipmunk]

the fact that it is an extramodel that can adapt to the squad upgrades IS the champions perk.

what you want do ? go all tactical marine on the csm? mark of khorne champion with a chainsword and bolt pistol?
TZ champion with a chain sword and bolt pistol?


because uhh.. yeah dude with bolt pistol and chain sword with a hard to use ability is kind of exactly what the other dudes have as trade off for their abilities....


ill take just a generic extra dude that does the same fantastic damage type as the rest of the squad ... ANY DAY over the shite that is the tac sarge.
csm champions are the best leader upgrades of the three current heavy infantry themed armies.

To complain about them is thoroughly amusing to me since i put them far ahead of justicars and sarges

[Nurland]

CSM squad leaders are very good as they are atm. No need for any buffs.

[egewithin]

I am NOT saying they need a buff or something. I am saying that, Champion deserves the prize without any marks, but when he gets a mark, he doesn't add any differenceses and even some weakneses so why is the prize?

And now, for the guys are not able to understand even a simple sentence, I will TRY to explain it in very details. Lets take MoT this time.
- CSM models does 18.15 dps === Champion does 18.15 dps
- CSM melee skill is 60 === Champion melee skill is 60
- CSM has 325 health === Champion has 400 health
- CSM global is 14 === Champion global is 10 ( why is it less btw? )

See, he does nothing different. He does as often as the rest of the models so I have to keep reinforcing him every single time at the cost of 25 power. Guys, this is more expensive than Ogryns. It might not be so healthy to compare these units but just think about it. He dies too often, he gives me nothing but a simple marine does so why should I care about him than? Let me check it to simple; Champion with marks is just another Chaos Marine so why do I have to give 25 power to him?

About the Mark of Khorne champion vs banshees thing written at top; champion and other marines has the same melee skill / damage / special attacks speed and nearly same health, just a little bit more. They might win it because MoK CSM models are awsome in melee combat by them self so increasing models from 3 to 4 is a big difference. See, the Champion is still same as other marines. Yes, they are already too good, why is the buffs? I am not asking for buffs, my problem is with the 25 power cost.

[Nurland]

An extra model for TCSM is easily worth 75/25. For KCSM as well tbh.

Chaos T2 is not super power intensive usually anyway. The only issue is rebuying the ACs which is not Chaos exclusive issue.

If Chaos units/upgrades need buffs, MoT/MoK CSM are not on the list.

[Carnevour]

CSM champs and the whole Chaos faction should have been much more different rather than this mess. They even have an energy pool for some reason altough having no abilities, makes you wonder. Im pretty sure they had some abilities on ACs for csm like more Tear and rip for kcsm or some vehicle piercing magicks bullets ability for tcsm for a short duration.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

TBH, we can change the name of the Aspiring Champion upgrade to Another guy in the squad and it would be a more accurate.

That said, even if I would like to say the opposite, I have to say that it's pretty balanced in the current state.

Still, there are some things I would change. I would happy increase the cost of the AC if it gains some kind of passive or active abilities.

[Dark Riku]

CSM champs and the whole Chaos faction should have been much more different rather than this mess. They even have an energy pool for some reason altough having no abilities, makes you wonder. Im pretty sure they had some abilities on ACs for csm like more Tear and rip for kcsm or some vehicle piercing magicks bullets ability for tcsm for a short duration.

I would happy increase the cost of the AC if it gains some kind of passive or active abilities.

Unmarked CSM with AC have an ability in Elite now...

[Black Maw]

The AC upgrade for MoK CSM is absolutely fantastic, that melta pistol really makes a difference plus HP is really needed. A necessity IMHO.

As for MoT, I totally get where your coming from, on paper it does seem kinda overpriced, not that it's not a very good upgrade.

However, I would second the fact that he does die a lot. Like a lot a lot. 25 power turns into another 25, then another and another and I'm not sure if there's really anything you can do about this. You can't do much other than retreat earlier but quite a few times i loose him before any of the other models! It really hurts your income and I pretty much always get other upgrades or units first because I know it's a more long term investment. It's not game breaking or really that bad but it is annoying.

I think three suggestions to consider might be:

1) Make him cost 20 power instead. Makes him a little bit more worth it but you will still have to repurchase him a lot. Plus this will probably mess up the balance and timings, so i wouldn't suggest it.

3) Buff him. Except CSM really don't need any more damage buffs, they kick ass. This really would mess the balance up.

3) Imho the better option, make the damage spread out amongst the squad better, like Tics. Its just much harder to loose the captains of other squads, It doesn't happen all that often whereas I can't remember the last time it didn't happen to me in a match. I'm glad i wasn't the only one going "Oh come on, not again. Do i want to buy him again...? Hrmmm probably not" when i see the AC upgrade is back. However, with Tics i never loose the AC. This would be an unfair advantage and i don't think trying to balance by making him more expensive in this situation really fixes anything.

Funnily enough this doesn't seem to happen to me as much with MoK. What's with that?

[Aetherion]

I am NOT saying they need a buff or something. I am saying that, Champion deserves the prize without any marks, but when he gets a mark, he doesn't add any differenceses and even some weakneses so why is the prize?

And now, for the guys are not able to understand even a simple sentence, I will TRY to explain it in very details. Lets take MoT this time.
- CSM models does 18.15 dps === Champion does 18.15 dps
- CSM melee skill is 60 === Champion melee skill is 60
- CSM has 325 health === Champion has 400 health
- CSM global is 14 === Champion global is 10 ( why is it less btw? )

See, he does nothing different. He does as often as the rest of the models so I have to keep reinforcing him every single time at the cost of 25 power. Guys, this is more expensive than Ogryns. It might not be so healthy to compare these units but just think about it. He dies too often, he gives me nothing but a simple marine does so why should I care about him than? Let me check it to simple; Champion with marks is just another Chaos Marine so why do I have to give 25 power to him?

About the Mark of Khorne champion vs banshees thing written at top; champion and other marines has the same melee skill / damage / special attacks speed and nearly same health, just a little bit more. They might win it because MoK CSM models are awsome in melee combat by them self so increasing models from 3 to 4 is a big difference. See, the Champion is still same as other marines. Yes, they are already too good, why is the buffs? I am not asking for buffs, my problem is with the 25 power cost.

I'm not sure if this will answer your question, but for example, eternal war is a flat damage buff and still costs power. This, like the extra model given by the Aspiring Champ doesn't (always) add an additional dimension to the unit. Think of the Aspiring Champ's cost as giving you 33% more damage, 33%(ish) more squad health. It however can be threatened by the enemy/random chance, which is understandably rage inducing.

[Nurland]

MoT CSM AC is worth the 25 power. The only problem is it dying but Banshees, Tacs etc all share the problem.

MoT CSM are already a high damage unit that is fairly durable and the squad leader just adds to this.